Author Topic: For the Darwinists  (Read 7656 times)

Butterbean

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For the Darwinists
« on: June 11, 2008, 09:17:53 AM »
If we used this type of definition for Darwinism:  the theory that all living creatures are modified descendents of a common ancestor that lived long ago.......


What is the main aspect or aspects of Darwinian theory that convinced you to embrace Darwinism as truth?

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tonymctones

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2008, 09:56:43 AM »
If we used this type of definition for Darwinism:  the theory that all living creatures are modified descendents of a common ancestor that lived long ago.......


What is the main aspect or aspects of Darwinian theory that convinced you to embrace Darwinism as truth?
Logical following of facts, in the instance of evolution much like in the instance of atomic theory the word theory doesnt mean what most ppl think of when they hear "theory". It simply means that that it is not set in stone but that doesnt mean that it is based on conjecture. Every scientific finding since the time of darwin or mendel or any of the others that led to a greater understanding of our biological or genetic worlds has lended itself to evolution. Even when parts are missing when one theorizes(the more common meaning) the answers that would be in step with evolution the findings that follow back up the theory.

That being said i see no conflict between evolution and faith, it may suprise you to know that charles darwin, charles lyell(one of darwins colleagues who darwin worked with on natural selection), gregor mendel(father of modern understanding of genetics) were clergy. After all who better to investigate the wonders and workings of God's creations?

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2008, 05:52:38 PM »
If we used this type of definition for Darwinism:  the theory that all living creatures are modified descendents of a common ancestor that lived long ago.......


What is the main aspect or aspects of Darwinian theory that convinced you to embrace Darwinism as truth?



Your question is a loaded one and I am sorry to say Stella that I have realised that these sorts of posts coming from you invariably are NOT born of general interest or a desire to challenge your own rigidly held beliefs. It's a shame.

What convinced me? Actually reading about evolution (instead of listening to Creationist rants) and observing the natural world.
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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2008, 06:10:27 PM »
Logical following of facts, in the instance of evolution much like in the instance of atomic theory the word theory doesnt mean what most ppl think of when they hear "theory". It simply means that that it is not set in stone but that doesnt mean that it is based on conjecture. Every scientific finding since the time of darwin or mendel or any of the others that led to a greater understanding of our biological or genetic worlds has lended itself to evolution. Even when parts are missing when one theorizes(the more common meaning) the answers that would be in step with evolution the findings that follow back up the theory.

That being said i see no conflict between evolution and faith, it may suprise you to know that charles darwin, charles lyell(one of darwins colleagues who darwin worked with on natural selection), gregor mendel(father of modern understanding of genetics) were clergy. After all who better to investigate the wonders and workings of God's creations?

And yet this creator god of yours engaged in so much waste, required billions of years, with such an imperfect (and cruel) mechanism as natural selection to bring all this about; strange indeed.
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Butterbean

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2008, 06:20:57 PM »
Your question is a loaded one and I am sorry to say Stella that I have realised that these sorts of posts coming from you invariably are NOT born of general interest or a desire to challenge your own rigidly held beliefs. It's a shame.

Why do you feel the question is "loaded?"   ???

Contrary to your presumption, I am interested if there are certain specific aspects of Darwinism that convinced people here to embrace it as true. 

If you are uncomfortable with any of my posts I apologize.  Please feel free to ignore this (or any of my) thread(s).
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tonymctones

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2008, 06:23:29 PM »
And yet this creator god of yours engaged in so much waste, required billions of years, with such an imperfect (and cruel) mechanism as natural selection to bring all this about; strange indeed.
im not sure what is more crass about you deicide your arrogance or your stance...It is extremely arrogant of you to assume and yes it is an assumption that God doesnt exist and that you are somewhat better than others for not believing in God. Like in many things our understanding of existence is not complete and just b/c we see one part of the picture does not mean we know what the picture is. Views have changed on a number of subjects over the years and do you not conceive it possible that your views as of right now are not the correct ones?

Who said it was a waste?
seems to me that natural selection among others would be great mechanisms in assuring that life would perceiver, no?
why do you believe that science and religion are at odds with each other?

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2008, 06:25:06 PM »
Why do you feel the question is "loaded?"   ???

Contrary to your presumption, I am interested if there are certain specific aspects of Darwinism that convinced people here to embrace it as true. 

If you are uncomfortable with any of my posts I apologize.  Please feel free to ignore this (or any of my) thread(s).

My point is, that no matter how much evidence you were presented with, you would not change your mind; that is faith, or belief without evidence. If firm evidence for Christianity were to arise tommorow and I do mean firm, I would instantly change my mind.

Have you actually read anything in detail about Evolutionary Theory or Genetics?
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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2008, 06:31:51 PM »
im not sure what is more crass about you deicide your arrogance or your stance...It is extremely arrogant of you to assume and yes it is an assumption that God doesnt exist and that you are somewhat better than others for not believing in God. Like in many things our understanding of existence is not complete and just b/c we see one part of the picture does not mean we know what the picture is. Views have changed on a number of subjects over the years and do you not conceive it possible that your views as of right now are not the correct ones?

Who said it was a waste?
seems to me that natural selection among others would be great mechanisms in assuring that life would perceiver, no?
why do you believe that science and religion are at odds with each other?

All of that pointless death; the death of billions of animals, some torn limb from limb, others eaten alive, starved to death, mass extinction, harmful mutation, still births, etc.; tell me, do you really think that is the best way a loving creator deity could go about it?

I think evolution and religion are at odds with each other AND science and religion. Religion is based on faith, science on evidence; theories in science are also based on evidence, doctrines in religion are based on faith, authority and tradition. They couldn't be more contradictory or oppositional to each other.

I am perfectly willing to change my mind if you or someone else presents suitable evidence to do so. For example, I used to study and believe in astrology. I changed my beliefs about it because of contrary evidence.
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tonymctones

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2008, 06:43:48 PM »
All of that pointless death; the death of billions of animals, some torn limb from limb, others eaten alive, starved to death, mass extinction, harmful mutation, still births, etc.; tell me, do you really think that is the best way a loving creator deity could go about it?

I think evolution and religion are at odds with each other AND science and religion. Religion is based on faith, science on evidence; theories in science are also based on evidence, doctrines in religion are based on faith, authority and tradition. They couldn't be more contradictory or oppositional to each other.

I am perfectly willing to change my mind if you or someone else presents suitable evidence to do so. For example, I used to study and believe in astrology. I changed my beliefs about it because of contrary evidence.
again who said it was pointless? animals have to eat to survive, babies with illnesses do not survive...if God put Natural selection into place among the other evolutionary mechanisms then they are following along arent they?

Explain to me how believing in evolution contradicts belief in religion...you have based your arguement on the bases of science and religion but you can believe in science and have faith at the same time darwin did it so did mendel and many other scientist.

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Butterbean

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2008, 06:52:12 PM »
My point is, that no matter how much evidence you were presented with, you would not change your mind; that is faith, or belief without evidence. If firm evidence for Christianity were to arise tommorow and I do mean firm, I would instantly change my mind.

Do you realize it's odd for you to presume to know my thought processes or really much about me or what I would do in any given situation or of what I am capable? 

People make assumptions about people that are incorrect frequently.  And these are people that have known each other (in real life) for years.  People also surprise themselves at times.

In short, you shouldn't presume to know anything about the way I think or the way I might think.

If I was presented with firm evidence that God is not real etc... I would absolutely change my mind.  I want to believe what is true.  I think it would be easier to believe was no God to which we are accountable.  But I don't believe that to be the case.

(Btw, changed lives [including mine] are some of the evidence that I accept)




Have you actually read anything in detail about Evolutionary Theory or Genetics?
The last time in detail was college. 


If firm evidence for Christianity were to arise tommorow and I do mean firm, I would instantly change my mind.



For instance what would you accept as firm evidence for Christianity?


Also, are there any aspects of Darwinism, if refuted, that would turn you away from same?



Please keep in mind if any of my questions make you uncomfortable or if you'd rather not respond to certain ones, don't feel compelled to answer.
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Butterbean

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2008, 06:05:43 AM »
If we used this type of definition for Darwinism:  the theory that all living creatures are modified descendents of a common ancestor that lived long ago.......


What is the main aspect or aspects of Darwinian theory that convinced you to embrace Darwinism as truth?


bump in hope that columbusdude might want to answer
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Butterbean

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2008, 06:11:31 AM »
All of that pointless death; the death of billions of animals, some torn limb from limb, others eaten alive, starved to death, mass extinction, harmful mutation, still births, etc.; tell me, do you really think that is the best way a loving creator deity could go about it?

I hate hearing/seeing about that too.  But I believe that stuff is the result of sin entering the world.  There was no shedding of blood before Adam and Eve sinned.  The inference is that all creatures were initially plant-eaters.

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columbusdude82

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2008, 06:21:19 AM »
bump in hope that columbusdude might want to answer

Hey, I just saw this. In the future if anyone wants my response to a thread which I miss, just nudge me with a PM.

I've said this stuff dozens of times on here, so let's recap.

Evolution is the central idea of biology. Without evolution, nothing in biology makes sense.

Evolution = Natural Selection + Random Mutation

Our genetic material is coded digitally, just like information in a computer. Computers use binary language (0 and 1), genes use a four-letter alphabet (A, C, T, and G).

Random mutation: sometimes, there are just random copying errors. Whole chunks of A,C,T,G's are lost, inverted, misplaced, etc

Natural selection: a gene that makes its possessor more likely to survive into sexual maturity and produce more off-spring is more likely to survive, whereas a gene that makes its possessor less likely to produce healthy off-spring will perish.

As a result, Stella, you and I are made up of champion genes. They have survived over the eons by making our ancestors more likely to grow past adolescence and reproduce, while many other genes vanished. This selection is non-random, because it is a function of the gene's effects on the organism's success in life.

Before I go on, do you understand these two points? Do you have a problem with either one of them?

Butterbean

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2008, 07:11:53 AM »


As a result, Stella, you and I are made up of champion genes.

 :D   ;D



Before I go on, do you understand these two points? Do you have a problem with either one of them?
OK I think I'm following what you have said so far... so yes please continue.
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columbusdude82

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2008, 07:16:26 AM »
:D   ;D

OK I think I'm following what you have said so far... so yes please continue.

OK, so evolution is nothing more than these two concepts, natural selection and random mutation.

EVEN IF all living organisms did not have common ancestors, evolution would still hold. EVEN IF life originated several times instead of once, evolution would still hold. EVEN IF life was created by a supernatural power long ago, evolution still holds. EVEN IF life on earth were brought from some alien life form long ago, evolution still holds.

The claim that all organisms living on earth today is just a simple corollary of the above, supported by a convergence of ample evidence from the fossil record and molecular genetics. C'est tout.

Butterbean

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2008, 07:26:24 AM »
OK, so evolution is nothing more than these two concepts, natural selection and random mutation.

EVEN IF all living organisms did not have common ancestors, evolution would still hold. EVEN IF life originated several times instead of once, evolution would still hold. EVEN IF life was created by a supernatural power long ago, evolution still holds. EVEN IF life on earth were brought from some alien life form long ago, evolution still holds.

The claim that all organisms living on earth today is just a simple corollary of the above, supported by a convergence of ample evidence from the fossil record and molecular genetics. C'est tout.
Oh, I thought you were a Darwinist in the sense that all creatures came from one common ancestor...am I wrong about that?   

Aren't Darwinism and evolution 2 "diff." things?  Maybe Darwinism is not the term I wanted to use

If we used this type of definition for Darwinism:  the theory that all living creatures are modified descendents of a common ancestor that lived long ago.......



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columbusdude82

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2008, 07:29:17 AM »
I am saying you have the emphasis all wrong. The big thing in biology is not common ancestry, is natural selection + random mutation.

Common ancestry, which so worries the religious freaks (esp. the whole "monkey" obsession), is just a small corollary.

Butterbean

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2008, 07:35:00 AM »
I am saying you have the emphasis all wrong. The big thing in biology is not common ancestry, is natural selection + random mutation.


OK I think we can both accept these!  (Although I don't believe random mutations result in entirely diff. species [but maybe you don't either]).



Common ancestry, which so worries the religious freaks (esp. the whole "monkey" obsession), is just a small corollary.

OK, so are you saying that you do accept as true that all living creatures came from one common organism?
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columbusdude82

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2008, 07:39:24 AM »
OK I think we can both accept these!  (Although I don't believe random mutations result in entirely diff. species [but maybe you don't either]).

OF COURSE I DON'T. DDUUUUUHHHHHH.

Quote
OK, so are you saying that you do accept as true that all living creatures came from one common organism?

Yes. All the evidence supports it, none of the evidence contradicts it. So far, any way.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2008, 05:37:11 AM »
If we used this type of definition for Darwinism:  the theory that all living creatures are modified descendents of a common ancestor that lived long ago.......


What is the main aspect or aspects of Darwinian theory that convinced you to embrace Darwinism as truth?


There seems to be more evidence backing it up than the alternative.

ToxicAvenger

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2008, 09:30:18 AM »



What is the main aspect or aspects of Darwinian theory that convinced you to embrace Darwinism as truth?



linear progression of fossil records and the carbon dating of said records
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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2008, 06:36:23 AM »
The "Fatal Flaws" of Darwinian Theory
by Larry Vardiman, Ph.D.

Evolutionary genetic theory has a series of apparent "fatal flaws" that are well known to population geneticists, but that have not been effectively communicated to other scientists or the public. These fatal flaws have been recognized by leaders in the field for many decades--based upon logic and mathematical formulations. However, population geneticists have generally been very reluctant to openly acknowledge these theoretical problems, and a cloud of confusion has come to surround each issue.

Numerical simulation provides a definitive tool for empirically testing the reality of these fatal flaws and can resolve the confusion. At the 6th International Conference on Creationism in Pittsburgh on August 3-7, 2008, two papers will be presented on the results of tests that utilized numerical simulation of mutation and natural selection. They are entitled "Mendel's Accountant: A New Population Genetics Simulation Tool for Studying Mutation and Natural Selection" and "Using Numerical Simulation to Test the Validity of Neo-Darwinian Theory." The primary authors of these two papers are Dr. John Baumgardner and Dr. John Sanford, respectively.

A new population genetics simulation tool called Mendel's Accountant has been developed jointly by ICR and Feed My Sheep Foundation for studying mutation and natural selection. The program is a state-of-the-art forward-time population genetics model that tracks millions of individual mutations with their unique effects on fitness and unique location within the genome through large numbers of generations. It treats the process of natural selection in a precise way.

The program allows a user to choose values for a large number of parameters such as those specifying the mutation effect distribution, reproduction rate, population size, and variations in environmental conditions. Mendel's Accountant is thus a versatile and capable research tool that can be applied to problems in human genetics, plant and animal breeding, and management of endangered species. With its user-friendly graphical user interface and its ability to run on laptop computers, it can also be fruitfully employed in teaching genetics and genetic principles, even at a high school level.

Biologically reasonable Mendel's Accountant input parameters produce output consistent with (a) the biblical account of recent creation, (b) rapid local adaptation followed by stabilization of changes in an organism’s visible features, (c) a spike in genetic variation followed by continuously declining diversity, (d) rapid genetic degeneration tapering into a more gradual but continuous genetic decline, and (e) many extinction events.

This program is freely available for personal use and can be downloaded from the web at http://mendelsaccount.sourceforge.net. When biologically realistic parameters are selected, Mendel's Accountant shows consistently that genetic deterioration is an inevitable outcome of the processes of mutation and natural selection. The primary reason is that most deleterious mutations are too subtle to be detected and eliminated by natural selection and therefore accumulate steadily generation after generation and inexorably degrade fitness.

Mendel's Accountant provides overwhelming empirical evidence that all of the "fatal flaws" inherent in evolutionary genetic theory are real. This leaves evolutionary genetic theory effectively falsified--with a degree of certainty that should satisfy any reasonable and open-minded person.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2008, 12:41:26 PM »
The "Fatal Flaws" of Darwinian Theory
by Larry Vardiman, Ph.D.

Evolutionary genetic theory has a series of apparent "fatal flaws" that are well known to population geneticists, but that have not been effectively communicated to other scientists or the public. These fatal flaws have been recognized by leaders in the field for many decades--based upon logic and mathematical formulations. However, population geneticists have generally been very reluctant to openly acknowledge these theoretical problems, and a cloud of confusion has come to surround each issue.

Numerical simulation provides a definitive tool for empirically testing the reality of these fatal flaws and can resolve the confusion. At the 6th International Conference on Creationism in Pittsburgh on August 3-7, 2008, two papers will be presented on the results of tests that utilized numerical simulation of mutation and natural selection. They are entitled "Mendel's Accountant: A New Population Genetics Simulation Tool for Studying Mutation and Natural Selection" and "Using Numerical Simulation to Test the Validity of Neo-Darwinian Theory." The primary authors of these two papers are Dr. John Baumgardner and Dr. John Sanford, respectively.

A new population genetics simulation tool called Mendel's Accountant has been developed jointly by ICR and Feed My Sheep Foundation for studying mutation and natural selection. The program is a state-of-the-art forward-time population genetics model that tracks millions of individual mutations with their unique effects on fitness and unique location within the genome through large numbers of generations. It treats the process of natural selection in a precise way.

The program allows a user to choose values for a large number of parameters such as those specifying the mutation effect distribution, reproduction rate, population size, and variations in environmental conditions. Mendel's Accountant is thus a versatile and capable research tool that can be applied to problems in human genetics, plant and animal breeding, and management of endangered species. With its user-friendly graphical user interface and its ability to run on laptop computers, it can also be fruitfully employed in teaching genetics and genetic principles, even at a high school level.

Biologically reasonable Mendel's Accountant input parameters produce output consistent with (a) the biblical account of recent creation, (b) rapid local adaptation followed by stabilization of changes in an organism’s visible features, (c) a spike in genetic variation followed by continuously declining diversity, (d) rapid genetic degeneration tapering into a more gradual but continuous genetic decline, and (e) many extinction events.

This program is freely available for personal use and can be downloaded from the web at http://mendelsaccount.sourceforge.net. When biologically realistic parameters are selected, Mendel's Accountant shows consistently that genetic deterioration is an inevitable outcome of the processes of mutation and natural selection. The primary reason is that most deleterious mutations are too subtle to be detected and eliminated by natural selection and therefore accumulate steadily generation after generation and inexorably degrade fitness.

Mendel's Accountant provides overwhelming empirical evidence that all of the "fatal flaws" inherent in evolutionary genetic theory are real. This leaves evolutionary genetic theory effectively falsified--with a degree of certainty that should satisfy any reasonable and open-minded person.

What???  Where are the fatal flaws.  One fatal flaw I see is a program where anyone would think "biologically realistic parameters" could be selected.  That just won't happen, ever.

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2008, 10:14:52 AM »
What???  Where are the fatal flaws.  One fatal flaw I see is a program where anyone would think "biologically realistic parameters" could be selected.  That just won't happen, ever.

Hmm that is weird, it did not list one flaw

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Re: For the Darwinists
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2008, 08:57:44 PM »
Christians will post/write anything to justify their delusional fairytales.
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