Cardio Question

[pumpster]

What's 'HIIT'?

High intensity interval training.

[Brutal_1]

Okay, I very rarely do cardio so I am no expert on it hence the need for this question.

Someone told me that in order to burn fat you need to do cardio at a low intensity and cardio done at higher intensity tends to burn carbs.

Is this true and if so why is it?

Just for info I intend to now start doing cardio about two or three times a week on a stationary bike I have at home. I will be doing half an hour at a time on my days off from weight-training. The purpose of me doing this cardio is simply to improve my cardiovascular fitness - I am dying a death in the gym doing heavy training probably because I am simply not fit enough - years of lack of cardio have taken their toll.

my two cents:

If you're in the gym for fat loss...then increased metabolic rate should be you primary concern.  In which case higher intensity cardio makes more sense.  It is true that at a lower intensity you burn more fat, but for how long?  At rest, your heart is using fat for energy, but in a 24 hour span, you burn more calories with an increased BMR after an intense bout of cardio.  High intense cardio anywhere from 20-40 min.  When I do this in the morning I've gotta carry a towel with me throughout the day because of my elevated metabolism...causing me to sweat profusely for about the next 3-4 hours. 

Sometimes, if I'm really pressed for time I'll do the interval training...running at a high speed for 15-20sec intervals and stepping to the sides of the treadmill for 10 sec or so, fine tune it for you...doing that for about 15min is more than enough

[montrealman76]

Hold on here.. im getting confused

Im strictly working out to lose weight. I dont care how much muscle i lose right now due i can always work on getting it back later on when im lower in weight. ( started at 260lbs, dropped 20lbs in 4 weeks now ). The first 4 weeks of cardio was good, 1 hour sessions, 130-160 BPM. In the last week or so.. ive been trying to keep my BPM at 160 now for as long as i can in my workout. I thought this would promote better fat burn rather then if i was to keep it at 130 BPM.

Im 31 so my BPM is supposed to be 132-180ish. So.. i always thought that 160 would be a nice high intensity fat burn. Am i wrong? Should i be almost forcing myself to ease up on the cardio?

From what im reading.. i should be trying to hit 130 instead of 160 and that doesnt make sense to me. ( but i AM a workout retard who only joined the gym just over a month ago ).

Please can someone explain a little better or provide solid links?

[Faust]

Interesting study:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/2/695

One group only lifts weights three times a week
One group only goes running three times a week
One group lifts and goes running for 40 minutes afterwards (three times a week)

Last group lost most fat and gained most muscle. Group that goes running actually lost muscle.

From what i've read HIIT is superior than normal cardio. However, is it feasable for a serious weightlifter to add HIIT?
What i do now, is i lift 3 times a week. And i'm gonna try adding low/medium intensity cardio for 30-40 mins several times a week. As long as you stay under 45 minutes there is not much danger of muscle loss because cortisol levels are low.

E.g. today i did chest and tris. Kept the work out short: around 45 mins. After that i had a shake with some dextrose/whey and then i shot some bball for 30 minutes. Not really for fat loss, but cardio has more important benefits imo.

[The Coach]

That would be one example of an energy system type of training....a little more to it, but its somewhat of an example

[webcake]

Hold on here.. im getting confused

Im strictly working out to lose weight. I dont care how much muscle i lose right now due i can always work on getting it back later on when im lower in weight. ( started at 260lbs, dropped 20lbs in 4 weeks now ). The first 4 weeks of cardio was good, 1 hour sessions, 130-160 BPM. In the last week or so.. ive been trying to keep my BPM at 160 now for as long as i can in my workout. I thought this would promote better fat burn rather then if i was to keep it at 130 BPM.

Im 31 so my BPM is supposed to be 132-180ish. So.. i always thought that 160 would be a nice high intensity fat burn. Am i wrong? Should i be almost forcing myself to ease up on the cardio?

From what im reading.. i should be trying to hit 130 instead of 160 and that doesnt make sense to me. ( but i AM a workout retard who only joined the gym just over a month ago ).

Please can someone explain a little better or provide solid links?

If this is the case, do high(er) intensity cardio then. The whole idea with low intensity cardio is that it burns fat whilst minimising muscle loss. If you want to shed WEIGHT, do higher intensity cardio as you will burn more calories. If you want to shed BODYFAT, low intensity cardio is (supposedly) the best option.

[The Coach]

If this is the case, do high(er) intensity cardio then. The whole idea with low intensity cardio is that it burns fat whilst minimising muscle loss. If you want to shed WEIGHT, do higher intensity cardio as you will burn more calories. If you want to shed BODYFAT, low intensity cardio is (supposedly) the best option.

All due respect, you have it backwards.

[webcake]

All due respect, you have it backwards.

lol, like i said supposedly this is the way it is. Like all things it seems, there are many conflicting reports.

The reason i say that high intensity cardio is better for losing weight is you need to take into consideration "post workout calorie burning". More vigorous cardio, eg jogging at 80% of MHR, will not only burn more calories than low intensity cardio for the same time period, you will continue to burn calories after you have completed the run, for up to 48hrs. Where as when you finish a low intensity cardio session, the calorie burning stops. Thats why i think that for weight loss (not worrying about muscle loss either), high intensity cardio is better. But thats just my opinion...

[candidizzle]

 Coach, if youve got all these studies and reports to show that bodybuilders have been doing things ass-backwards and have been eating away all their muscle tissue while dieting since the first Olympia well then post em up and shock the bodybuilding community!




jeez, if this is true imagine what ronnioe would have looked like had he done sprints instead of done old school low intensity cardio ? 

 

[Cap]

I'm confused on what you're trying to say......are you saying intervals burns less fat than long cardio sessions? Oh well, without getting technical (because I can go on for days with this subject alone bringing case studies into play, but I digress).

Short answer........interval training and energy system training will burn fat much more efficiantly than long cardio sessions....period, no if, and's or but's about it. Also you WILL retain more muscle. Fact; Marathon runners have less muscle and carry more fat than sprinters or any TypeII or IIa athlete. Weight training is a fast twitch activity....you're "cardio" should be the same. Also, it's been proven that you can increase AEROBIC capacity with interval training (ANAEROBIC)

So true.  Compare the CC and distance runners to a track sprinter.  The latter is more muscular, stronger and runs intervals. 

I like doing quarter mile intervals, which is good for endurance and fat burning, but I do this in addition to longer runs.  Coach is right about interval training being applicable to endurance....these are called Fartlek drills.


Candi-Ronnie could get cut the way he did because of strict diet and pills, he didn't need to do hard cardio.

[darksol]

If you are training and you are still feeling out of shape, you could be lacking certain vitamins or minerals.  For example I have to take extra Iron because my body lacks it.  Things like Iron are essential for moving oxygen around to your cells.  Also you might try cutting down on sugars, and replace it with leafy green stuff ( spinich  ext. )  Another possibility is insulin ( diabetes )

[The Coach]

Candizzle, start with the link I provided. I personally haven't seen a study that contradicts that. Look at sprinter and look at marathon runners and Triathletes. True marathon runners and triathletes consume literally thousands of more calories than sprinters yet they carry more fat and less muscle.. If I broke it down to you scientifically you might get it so iwill just leave the example of the sprinter vs. Marathoner.

[candidizzle]

Candizzle, start with the link I provided. I personally haven't seen a study that contradicts that. Look at sprinter and look at marathon runners and Triathletes. True marathon runners and triathletes consume literally thousands of more calories than sprinters yet they carry more fat and less muscle.. If I broke it down to you scientifically you might get it so iwill just leave the example of the sprinter vs. Marathoner.

yes but RUNNING during a marathon is quite different than WALKING one. see, running the preferential source of fuel is glucose. when theres no glucose, and no glycogen, and no amino acids coming from digested proteins, then muscle gets eating. same situation for sprinting.   BUT, see WALKING preferential fuel source is fat. so walk walk walk wlak walk and you just burn fat fat fat..

[flexingtonsteele]

yes but RUNNING during a marathon is quite different than WALKING one. see, running the preferential source of fuel is glucose. when theres no glucose, and no glycogen, and no amino acids coming from digested proteins, then muscle gets eating. same situation for sprinting.   BUT, see WALKING preferential fuel source is fat. so walk walk walk wlak walk and you just burn fat fat fat..

yea i was telling coach this as well, but he's in his own world and doesnt understand it.

im not talking about the avg everyday joe doing cardio, who would probably benefit more from HIIT, because of the dietary habits.

But im talking about a person who is living a bb lifestyle and is on a KETO diet specifically. I was only saying that they would benefit from low intensity long duration cardio more.

So when Coach comes down from planet berardi, he might understand that.

[The Coach]

So I guess everyother S&C expert in the world is wrong and you two are right?

[candidizzle]

So I guess everyother S&C expert in the world is wrong and you two are right?

i guess everybodybuilder in the history of the sport is wrong and all these studies and experts you claim to have as back up are right ?

[The Coach]

Yes...that about sums it up!!

[flexingtonsteele]

Yes...that about sums it up!!

yep it does, so lets end this. None of us will budge and I totally understand what you are saying coach and agree with you. HIIT is great.

BUT! What I am saying is that it is not great in every situation. And since getbig is a BB board, and lots of bb'ers nowadays are using keto diets. All I was saying is that I would not do HIIT on a keto diet, and that long duration low intensity cardio would be much better in that situation. But you know what your talking about, so lets end this thread

[ATHEIST]

I just started doing cardio myself. dont want to lose strength. pretty strong and fairly lean and i eat clean, i just wanted to tighten up. im thoroughly confused now thank you. i think i'll use the stairmaster at a med pace for like 10-15 minutes. does that sound good?

[JasonH]

I just started doing cardio myself. dont want to lose strength. pretty strong and fairly lean and i eat clean, i just wanted to tighten up. im thoroughly confused now thank you. i think i'll use the stairmaster at a med pace for like 10-15 minutes. does that sound good?

Hehe - yes, I was thinking the same thing - sounds like I've started a war between Coach and Candizzle here.

Either way, some good advice and a good debate - I've done a few cardio sessions on the stationary bike this week and I can alrady feel like my fitness levels are improving. I'm not too fussed as yet about losing fat, I just don't want to lose any muscle. And I just want to become a bit more aerobically fitter. I'll been doing 20-30 mins on the bike two or three times a week and we'll see how it goes.

[AVBG]

Do both- I do alternate between hi-intensity and long/slow.

When doing a double cardio (two sessions in a day), I normally do long/slow straight after a workout (AM) and if not doing cardio post workout (on its own in the PM) I do Hi-intensity.

[Fatpanda]

bigj i think your best option is to start off with 3 x30-45 min low intensity cardio sessions a week to slowly increase your fitness, slowly increasing resistance over a month, then start HIIT, as HIIT is far far more efficient at increasing fitness levels than low intensity cardio.

see this for good info on the tabata study/method ( the Ultimate HIIT protocol)

http://www.cbass.com/FATBURN.HTM

these parts stood out for me:

fitness:
The moderate-intensity endurance training program produced a significant increase in V02max (about 10%), but had no effect on anaerobic capacity. The high-intensity intermittent protocol improved V02max by about 14%; anaerobic capacity increased by a whopping 28%.

Dr. Tabata and his colleagues believe this is the first study to demonstrate an increase in both aerobic and anaerobic power. What's more, in an e-mail response to Dick Winett, Dr. Tabata said, "The fact is that the rate of increase in V02max [14% for the high-intensity protocol - in only 6 weeks] is one of the highest ever reported in exercise science." (Note, the students participating in this study were members of varsity table tennis, baseball, basketball, soccer and swimming teams and already had relatively high aerobic capacities.)

regarding fat loss:
The researchers calculated that the ET group burned more than twice as many calories while exercising than the HIIT program. But (surprise, surprise) skinfold measurements showed that the HIIT group lost more subcutaneous fat. "Moreover," reported the researchers, "when the difference in the total energy cost of the program was taken into account..., the subcutaneous fat loss was ninefold greater in the HIIT program than in the ET program." In short, the HIIT group got 9 times more fat-loss benefit for every calorie burned exercising.


candy i believe your reasoning is flawed, walking is simply training your muscles to do what they do everyday with ease and become efficient endurance type fibres (smaller)

HIIT trains your muscles to be powerful and produce strength greater than it currently is ( bigger)

[JasonH]

bigj i think your best option is to start off with 3 x30-45 min low intensity cardio sessions a week to slowly increase your fitness, slowly increasing resistance over a month, then start HIIT, as HIIT is far far more efficient at increasing fitness levels than low intensity cardio.

see this for good info on the tabata study/method ( the Ultimate HIIT protocol)

http://www.cbass.com/FATBURN.HTM

these parts stood out for me:

fitness:
The moderate-intensity endurance training program produced a significant increase in V02max (about 10%), but had no effect on anaerobic capacity. The high-intensity intermittent protocol improved V02max by about 14%; anaerobic capacity increased by a whopping 28%.

Dr. Tabata and his colleagues believe this is the first study to demonstrate an increase in both aerobic and anaerobic power. What's more, in an e-mail response to Dick Winett, Dr. Tabata said, "The fact is that the rate of increase in V02max [14% for the high-intensity protocol - in only 6 weeks] is one of the highest ever reported in exercise science." (Note, the students participating in this study were members of varsity table tennis, baseball, basketball, soccer and swimming teams and already had relatively high aerobic capacities.)

regarding fat loss:
The researchers calculated that the ET group burned more than twice as many calories while exercising than the HIIT program. But (surprise, surprise) skinfold measurements showed that the HIIT group lost more subcutaneous fat. "Moreover," reported the researchers, "when the difference in the total energy cost of the program was taken into account..., the subcutaneous fat loss was ninefold greater in the HIIT program than in the ET program." In short, the HIIT group got 9 times more fat-loss benefit for every calorie burned exercising.


candy i believe your reasoning is flawed, walking is simply training your muscles to do what they do everyday with ease and become efficient endurance type fibres (smaller)

HIIT trains your muscles to be powerful and produce strength greater than it currently is ( bigger)

Good post - it certainly makes sense what you say and I'll definitely give it a try.