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Author Topic: for a natural, is 50g protein a day just as good as 300g?  (Read 3297 times)
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2008, 06:07:51 AM »

Yeah.
If you’re natural then you have a normal recovery rate – it doesn’t pay to eat 800g of protein/day because there’s no way your body can effectively use it, let alone needs it.
I.e. if you're natural and only need 200g to fully recover, then there’s 600g that you’ll either poop out and/or store as fat.

If you’re using “supplements” that speed and improve recovery, then your body can utilize larger amounts of protein, etc.
You can train harder and more frequently, thus you need more fuel to grow.




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« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2008, 07:29:25 AM »

Yeah.
If you’re natural then you have a normal recovery rate – it doesn’t pay to eat 800g of protein/day because there’s no way your body can effectively use it, let alone needs it.
I.e. if you're natural and only need 200g to fully recover, then there’s 600g that you’ll either poop out and/or store as fat.

If you’re using “supplements” that speed and improve recovery, then your body can utilize larger amounts of protein, etc.
You can train harder and more frequently, thus you need more fuel to grow.

True, Monte, and don't forget the supplements that help your body break down the protein more efficiently such as bromelain and papain.  These are some of the most under-utilized supplements in the bodybuilding world.
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« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2008, 08:01:11 AM »

no lol and that's about all that needs to be said  Grin
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« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2008, 08:58:00 AM »

Excerpt from Torbjorn Akerfeldt

Protein metabolism is very complex and is an area of science we're only beginning to really understand. However, there are some things which are relevant to my theory which bodybuilders should have a handle on. Basically, what you need to know is that all the amino acids we ingest in the form of proteins are broken down to free amino acids and used, for example, to build new proteins according to the metabolic state that exists at that moment in the body. What the body does with the various proteins once it disassembles them into these free amino acids depends on your previous food intake, your physical activity, your hormonal status, and a number of other things. These new proteins, depending on the type [e.g., muscle, gut, and liver proteins], have different rates of turnover. Since this area is quite complex, I have created an overview chart [below] that will hopefully offer some assistance. I think this chart includes some important information. The numbers were chosen with a 200-lb bodybuilder in mind.



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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2008, 09:02:41 AM »

The free amino acid pool is mainly located inside cells and constitutes only about one percent of the body's total amino acid content in the form of proteins. Since the free amino acid pool is smaller than the daily incoming amount of amino acids from food, the consequence of one day of protein deprivation could be disastrous. Luckily, the body has solved this problem by having a very high rate of protein turnover [more than one pound daily], and by keeping a pool of labile [this means they can easily change] proteins which are readily available to be broken down without interrupting normal body functions.9,14,17 By having this high rate of protein turnover, the body can easily change the distribution of proteins, and this is of prime importance. During infection [a form of metabolic stress], for example, when the body needs to synthesize antibodies [which are proteins], the building blocks [amino acids] will be taken mostly from labile proteins, but unfortunately, during longer periods of sickness, starvation, or trauma, muscle protein will also be broken down to provide raw material for new proteins.
By studying the chart, you can see how I came to the conclusion that there are at least four areas we as bodybuilders must target: 1) decrease amino acid breakdown, 2) increase protein synthesis, 3) decrease protein breakdown, and 4) increase the proportion of newly synthesized muscle proteins. All the details about how to accomplish this are too complicated to get into in this article. However, in regard to protein intake, I can mention that degradation, or breakdown, is temporarily suppressed by an increased protein intake,8,16 and synthesis is promoted at intakes above 1.4 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per day [g/kgBW/d].16,21 For a 200-lb lifter, that's about 130 grams of protein per day.
The size of the free amino acid pool is remarkably constant,24 and this, my friends, is bad news for bodybuilders since it has been shown that the amount of free amino acids both inside muscle cells and in the blood6 governs protein synthesis. This pool can be controlled very closely by a "safety valve" called "oxidation."4 By this process, the carbon skeletons from the excess amino acids are used to create energy. This can happen directly or via the synthesis of glucose [gluconeogenesis] or fat.
Another "safety valve" is the up-regulation of the enzymes in the urea cycle. This metabolic cycle takes place in the liver, and its purpose is to eliminate nitrogen [from protein] by converting it into a water-soluble form called urea, which can be excreted in the urine. The urea cycle and other liver enzymes also break down excess amino acids directly.
There are also other "safety valves" or systems the body uses to maintain a constant amino acid and protein balance, but the important thing to remember is that there are a number of systems that are altered for better or worse when you follow a high-protein diet. The consequence of this is that if you habitually consume a high-protein diet, you are setting off multiple "adaptations" and alterations in how your body metabolizes protein—it influences your protein requirement.18,19 In other words, the more protein you ingest, the more you need! This may not sound so bad for a protein lover, but think twice and you will see its downside. Eventually, you will need such a high protein intake in order to generate the positive effects that health problems could occur.
Another consideration is a large amount of protein supplements could be necessary to meet the extraordinary protein requirement you've built up.
And, perhaps most importantly, if you develop this need for a high amount of protein and you miss a meal or during your long overnight fast [the time you don't eat while you're sleeping], your body is quickly thrown into a protein catabolic state. You literally have to eat protein every few hours in order to not go "catabolic."
As we've discussed in previous articles, your body has the ability to adapt to almost anything you subject it to. For example, those individuals [probably not Muscle Media readers] who consume alcohol habitually experience an up-regulation in certain enzymes that metabolize alcohol; thus, the more frequently they drink, the more they need to consume to get intoxicated [drunk]. Follow me?

What you're saying is if I consume 400 grams of protein every day, initially this might cause an anabolic effect, but eventually, if I keep doing this, I'll need 400 grams of protein a day just to maintain my current level of muscle mass. Is this what you're saying?

Exactly. The body adapts by up-regulating enzymes and systems that break down amino acids.

At first glance, a diet dominated by protein seems to be the logical choice for every bodybuilder. After all, there are reasons this macronutrient is called protein—it's Greek for "of prime importance."
In addition to carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, protein contains nitrogen and some sulfur, which make it different from fats and carbohydrates.
Protein can be used to create carbohydrates, and with some difficulties, it can be converted to fat, but carbohydrates and fats can never be turned into proteins unless nitrogen is present, and as we've already discussed, nitrogen comes only from protein.
Strangely enough, the current United States Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) does not include an additional amount of protein for those who regularly engage in physical exercise.15 Several recent studies, however, indicate that dietary protein intake in excess of the current RDA [.8 g/kgBW/d—that's only 72 grams a day for a 200-lb bodybuilder] is likely needed for optimal muscle growth. For example, in one study, heavy resistance-training young adult men consuming 3.3 g/kgBW/d [which is about 300 grams per day for a 200-lb guy] versus 1.3 [about 120 grams a day] gained 2.2 more pounds of bodyweight in just 14 days4!
Another study found protein synthesis in strength-training subjects went up when protein intake was increased from .9 to 2.4 g/kgBW/d.21 These studies concluded that 2.4 and 3.3 g/kgBW/d, respectively, were in excess of the amount needed for optimal muscle growth. For example, in the study using 3.3 g/kgBW/d, the "safety valve," called oxidation, increased by 159%.4 These and other researchers now think that the "optimal" protein intake for strength-training athletes might be 1.8 g/kgBW/d11,21 [about 160 grams of protein for a 200-lb lifter].
I strongly disagree with this theory. I do not believe the subjects who put on an additional 2.2 lbs of mass in 14 days by increasing their protein intake to 3.3 g/kgBW/d4 would have been equally successful if they had increased it only to 1.8 g/kgBW/d.

I think the answer lies in how we would define the word "optimal." For bodybuilders, it means maximum muscle growth, while for scientists, it means, more or less, the level at which "safety valves" are induced disproportionately to increased protein intake.25 This discrepancy can be explained within the anabolic drive theory, which was developed by a scientist named D.J. Millward, who has developed other interesting theories on muscle growth which we've discussed in earlier parts of this article series.
Dr. Millward believes dietary protein is a key active nutritional regulator. In short, his anabolic drive theory states that "excessive dietary indispensable [essential] amino acids, prior to their oxidation, exert an important transient regulatory influence on growth, development, and protein turnover, through their activation of various hormonal and metabolic responses, which collectively constitute the anabolic drive."12
The response he's referring to consists of an increase in anabolic hormones, including thyroid hormone [T3] which, in small amounts, is anabolic in muscle tissue. The metabolic response is a direct effect of enzymes stimulating protein synthesis and inhibiting protein degradation.
Notice that Millward mentioned this is a transient phenomenon, giving evidence that the anabolic drive theory is very much in line with my protein cycling theory.
Basically, what it all amounts to is that there are pros and cons associated with a high protein intake—the way to get the positive without the negative is to cycle protein intake.

1 G. Bounous, et al., "The Influence of Dietary Whey Protein on Tissue Glutathione and the Diseases of Aging," Clin. Invest. Med. 12.6 (1989) : 343-349.
2 F. Carraro, et al., "Urea Kinetics in Humans at Two Levels of Exercise Intensity," J. Appl. Physiol. 75.3 (1993) : 1180-1185.

3 E. Estornell, et al., "Improved Nitrogen Metabolism in Rats Fed on Lipid-Rich Liquid Diets," Br. J. Nutr. 71.3 (1994) : 361-373.

4 E.B. Fern, et al., "Effects of Exaggerated Amino Acid and Protein Supply in Man," Experientia 47.2 (1991) : 168-172.

5 G.B. Forbes, et al., "Hormonal Response to Overfeeding," Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 49.4 (1989) : 608-611.

6 D.A. Fryburg, et al., "Insulin and Insulin-Like Growth Factor-1 Enhance Human Skeletal Muscle Protein Anabolism During Hyperaminoacidemia by Different Mechanisms," J. Clin. Invest. 96.4 (1995) : 1722-1729.

7 P.J. Garlick, et al., "The Effect of Protein Deprivation and Starvation on the Rate of Protein Synthesis in Tissue of the Rat," Biochim. Biophys. Acta 414.1 (1975) : 71-84.

8 N.R. Gibson, et al., "Influences of Dietary Energy and Protein on Leucine Kinetics During Feeding in Healthy Adults," Am. J. Physiol. 270.2 (1996) : E282-291.

9 A.A. Jackson, "Nutrition Adaptation in Disease and Recovery," Nutritional Adaptation in Man, eds. Sir K.L. Blaxter and J.C. Waterlow (London: Libbey, 1985) 111-126.

10 M. Langran, et al., "Adaptation to a Diet Low in Protein: Effect of Complex Carbohydrate Upon Urea Kinetics in Normal Man," Clin. Sci. 82.2 (1992) : 191-198.

11 P.W. Lemon, et al., "Protein Requirements and Muscle Mass/Strength Changes During Intensive Training in Novice Bodybuilders," J. Appl. Physiol. 73.2 (1992) : 767-775.

12 D.J. Millward and J.P.W. Rivers, "The Need for Indispensable Amino Acids: The Concept of the Anabolic Drive," Diabetes Metab. Rev. 5.2 (1989) : 191-211.

13 C. Moundras, et al., "Dietary Protein Paradox: Decrease of Amino Acid Availability Induced by High-Protein Diets," Am. J. Physiol. 264.6 Pt. 1 (1993) : G1057-1065.

14 H.N. Munro, "General Aspects of the Regulation of Protein Metabolism By Diet and Hormones," Mammalian Protein Metabolism, Vol. 3, eds. H.N. Munro and J.B. Allison (New York: Academic Press, 1964) 381-481.

15 National Research Council, Recommended Daily Allowances, Vol. 10 (Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press, 1989) 52-77.

16 P.J. Pacy, et al., "Nitrogen Homeostasis in Man: The Diurnal Responses of Protein Synthesis and Degradation and Amino Acid Oxidation to Diets With Increasing Protein Intakes," Clin. Sci. 86.1 (1994) : 103-116.

17 J. Peret, "Nitrogen Excretion on Complete Fasting and on a Nitrogen-Free Diet-Endogenous Protein," Protein and Amino Acid Functions, ed. E.J. Bigwood (Oxford: Pergamon Press, 1972) 73-118.

18 G.M. Price, et al., "Nitrogen Homeostasis in Man: Influence of Protein Intake on the Amplitude of Diurnal Cycling of Body Nitrogen," Clin. Sci. 86.1 (1994) : 91-102.

19 M.R. Quevedo, et al., "Nitrogen Homeostasis in Man: Diurnal Changes in Nitrogen Excretion, Leucine Oxidation and Whole Body Leucine Kinetics During a Reduction From a High to a Moderate Protein Intake," Clin. Sci. 86.2 (1994) : 185-193.

20 S.M. Robinson, et al., "Protein Turnover and Thermogenesis in Response to High-Protein and High-Carbohydrate Feeding in Men," Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 52.1 (1990) : 72-80.

21 M.A. Tarnopolsky, et al., "Evaluation of Protein Requirements for Trained Strength Athletes," J. Appl. Physiol. 73.5 (1992) : 1986-1995.

22 M.A. Tarnopolsky, et al., "Influence of Protein Intake and Training Status on Nitrogen Balance and Lean Body Mass," J. Appl. Physiol. 64.1 (1988) : 187-193.

23 N.E. Tawa, Jr., and A.L. Goldberg, "Suppression of Muscle Protein Turnover and Amino Acid Degradation by Dietary Protein Deficiency," Am. J. Physiol. 263.2 (1992) : E317-325.

24 J.C. Waterlow, et al., Protein Turnover in Mammalian Tissue and in the Whole Body (New York: North-Holland, 1978).

25 V.R. Young, et al., "Whole Body Protein and Amino Acid Metabolism: Relation to Protein Quality Evaluation in Human Nutrition," J. Agric. Food Chem. 29.3 (1981) : 440-447.



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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2008, 09:27:50 AM »

True, Monte, and don't forget the supplements that help your body break down the protein more efficiently such as bromelain and papain.  These are some of the most under-utilized supplements in the bodybuilding world.

I know you've mentioned on quite a few occasions that you like using digestive enzymes. Some of my protein powders contain a blend, but I know I should be taking more than that.

Any brands you recommend?
Dosages?

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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2008, 12:16:58 PM »

you NEED MORE PROTEIN AS A NATURAL LIFTER !

come on, i already explained this.  the human body naturally is in a constant state of BOTH amino acid breakdown and protein synthesis. as a natural body builder you need to provide enough amino acids to cover the amount of protein synthesis that has been broken down, AND THEN on top of that enough to grow on.

as an "assisted" bodybuilder, the natural "breakdown" process comes to a slow, if not a complete stop. that means you no longer need to eat almost any protein to maintain muscle mass.  you just need to eat enough to grow on.

as a natural you need protein just to avoid catabolism.

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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2008, 02:09:28 PM »

you NEED MORE PROTEIN AS A NATURAL LIFTER !

come on, i already explained this.  the human body naturally is in a constant state of BOTH amino acid breakdown and protein synthesis. as a natural body builder you need to provide enough amino acids to cover the amount of protein synthesis that has been broken down, AND THEN on top of that enough to grow on.

as an "assisted" bodybuilder, the natural "breakdown" process comes to a slow, if not a complete stop. that means you no longer need to eat almost any protein to maintain muscle mass.  you just need to eat enough to grow on.

as a natural you need protein just to avoid catabolism.



I tought AAS increased protein synthesis? therefore juicers need more protein... hence pros eating 300g + everyday
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2008, 02:12:49 PM »

I tought AAS increased protein synthesis? therefore juicers need more protein... hence pros eating 300g + everyday
yes all steroids increase protein synthesis.

but they also inhibit protein breakdown.

where as a natural might not have as much net protein accrual as a steroid user at the end of the day, they still need to eat More because they have to compensate for the bodies natural breakdown/buildup amino acid cycle

juicers need less protein !

300g of protein is good if your a natural 150lb bodybuilder. other wise youll need more, unless your carb intake is through the roof.  if your eating a bunch of carbs at every meal you can get away with 1g per lb body weight.  other wise your better off with 2.

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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2008, 02:29:10 PM »

How much protein do you eat per day now?
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2008, 02:45:21 PM »

How much protein do you eat per day now?
8-10 ounces every three-four hours.
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« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2008, 02:54:17 PM »

in grams Cheesy
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« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2008, 02:56:25 PM »

errr... i dont know... i just eye ball it and thats roughly what it is... i just eat enough to make sure i am not eating muscle (since im dieting)...

id guesstimate about 300 grams per day, maybe 350.   and thats on super low carbs and about 3 hours of cardio a day.

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« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2008, 03:04:23 PM »

i'm dieting too Cheesy what's your carb range? i go 100 200 260 cals are 1800-2700

3hrs is alot! i do in the morning for 45min
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« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2008, 04:27:28 PM »

so far i have been zro starch and a big protion of green veggies at every meal. no idea what the actual count is... id guess a big serving of greens is 10 or less grams and i eat 5-7 tims a day so average day 50-70 g carbs coming from geens ?

but i have been carbing up more often lately, i do about 200 grams carbs every other day at night now.

i am thnking about changing my diet up though... probably do about 60 g carbs every morning, then 60 g again postw orkout. maybe every thrid day cut it down to zero, then bump it up to 400 , then repeat. idk yet. im waiting for some suggestions and advice from usmoke
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« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2008, 11:30:35 PM »

I know you've mentioned on quite a few occasions that you like using digestive enzymes. Some of my protein powders contain a blend, but I know I should be taking more than that.

Any brands you recommend?
Dosages?



Nothing fancy, just plain label cheap stuff and follow the recommended dosage on the bottle.  Also on occasion throw a little fresh pineapple in your shake with some papaya.
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« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2008, 06:08:27 AM »

I never thought of the pineapple in the shake. That sounds refreshingly good. Do you think it would go well in chocolate, or do I need to make a trip to the store to buy some other flavor?

As always, good info. Thank you very much.

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« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2008, 06:13:06 AM »

Nothing fancy, just plain label cheap stuff and follow the recommended dosage on the bottle.  Also on occasion throw a little fresh pineapple in your shake with some papaya.

enzymes are killed in the stomach.

If you want enzymes for protein breakdown, you either need gastric acid resistant tabs of you need to heat up the protein and papaya before digestion.

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« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2008, 10:37:33 AM »

I never thought of the pineapple in the shake. That sounds refreshingly good. Do you think it would go well in chocolate, or do I need to make a trip to the store to buy some other flavor?

As always, good info. Thank you very much.



I think it probably goes better with vanilla but try, it might be good.  I just threw some wheat germ and natural peanut butter in a chocolate whey shake and it was pretty tasty. 
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« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2008, 10:46:03 AM »

enzymes are killed in the stomach.

If you want enzymes for protein breakdown, you either need gastric acid resistant tabs of you need to heat up the protein and papaya before digestion.



Good point, on the supplements you want enteric-coated in order to prevent the enzyme from being destroyed by gastric juice.  My understanding is that when using a food-based source, much of the enzyme is broken down in the stomach but a percentage is not, thus a supplement is probably superior.  But then again, pineapple tastes better . . .


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« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2008, 03:03:41 PM »

If I eat Protein and it results in farts, is this a sign that my body is not properly digesting it?  And on the other side, if I eat protien and I am not farting does this mean I am not eating the maximum amount possible for my body? 
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« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2008, 07:01:47 AM »

i think all of you are brainwashed into believing the bs "1g/lb bodyweight" because thats what bb.com says and flex magazine says as a "nutritonal standard". Has anyone here done thorough scientific research on the subject? Id like to see a study done for 1 year two similar bodytypes (same training regimen) and look at the end of the year the guy who ate 50g/day vs 300g/day and see what the muscle growth difference is.. i bet it wont be much

You can look at late-20th/early-21st century research, regarding protein and its effects on building mass. And, I can virtually guarantee you that bodybuilders were doing 30-40 years prior to these findings, and getting great results.

Or as this quote puts it,

"Millions of people are involved in exercise programs that involve strength training and aerobic exercise. High-protein diets are the craze. Arnold (Schwarzenegger) was doing that back in the '70s, in the 60s." - Bill Phillips, "Iron and Beyond", from the Pumping Iron: 25th Anniversary Edition DVD.

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« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2008, 01:12:58 PM »

Yeah.
If you’re natural then you have a normal recovery rate – it doesn’t pay to eat 800g of protein/day because there’s no way your body can effectively use it, let alone needs it.
I.e. if you're natural and only need 200g to fully recover, then there’s 600g that you’ll either poop out and/or store as fat.

If you’re using “supplements” that speed and improve recovery, then your body can utilize larger amounts of protein, etc.
You can train harder and more frequently, thus you need more fuel to grow.


Notwithstanding that those are some rather high numbers, you'd gradually build up to consuming that much. You don't just jump from 150 g to 600 g of protein in 1-2 weeks. If you currently use 150 grams of proteinto maintain your weight, you'd increase that to say 175-200 grams of protein and see how that works.
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« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2008, 01:32:30 PM »

i'm no expert, but 50 grams of protein is like chugging just one protein shke, and i'd say even a natural dude chugs more than just one shake a day if he wants to maintain or build muscle. just my 2 cents worth bro!  Cool
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« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2008, 01:41:37 PM »

i'm no expert, but 50 grams of protein is like chugging just one protein shke, and i'd say even a natural dude chugs more than just one shake a day if he wants to maintain or build muscle. just my 2 cents worth bro!  Cool

50g is what my secretary needs a day, and she's 60!
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