Author Topic: Ending the cardio debate  (Read 17435 times)

The Coach

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #150 on: June 29, 2008, 11:28:42 PM »
Ok coach, i read the whole article and it had nothing to do what we were talking about.

Ill finish by saying that I believe there a lot of different ways to achieve the same goal. Whether its physique related or not.

We all just have to find the method that works best for us, no matter what. What works for me might not work for you, and what works for young taylor might not work for anybody else.

So with that said, keto diets work, carb cycling works, low fats work, low protein works, HIIT works, low intensity works, sprinting works. But we all have to see what works for each individual and do accordingly.

Great post and I agree with this 100%.

candidizzle

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #151 on: June 29, 2008, 11:29:43 PM »
Well if someone is obese anything works. Doesnt matter what it is, as long as its NOT what they were doing that got them so fat.

It isnt rocket science to lose weight. usually when u put too much thought into it, is when you dont do quite as well.
*looks into mirror while on treadmill doing cardio 4 weeks into diet*

" oh holy shit, why the fuck am i dideting? i dont even have any goddamn muscle to begin with ! okay, im finished doing this fucking cardio , time to refeed and have a couple super high carb days and try to pac on some muscle ! "

*two days later*

" why the fuck am i going high carb, im a fat piece of shit and ive got enough muscle to look decent at a low body fat! ahh fuck. zero carbs for a couple days + 3 hours of cardio ! "

REPEAT

 ;D


flexingtonsteele

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #152 on: June 29, 2008, 11:30:52 PM »
Great post and I agree with this 100%.

GOOD! U had better agreed with it  ;D

Im very knowledgeable and have trained people with great results using my "methods"  ;)

candidizzle

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #153 on: June 29, 2008, 11:31:54 PM »
Candizzle, you cannot do that to people that are obese, as a trainer, you have to work with them or they will bail in a heartbeat. Not to sound mean, but most are weak willed and have to treat them a little differently. Putting them on a crash diet flat out isn't going to work. You have to have some sensitivity and help build their self-esteem
i personal trian on the side as a hobby. its not a career for me.  i like to have the cert so i can say i have the cert, and so if i ever want to train somebody and get paid i can do so legally and have a gym that allows it legally and insured.

i would never work with anyone who i had to coddle and tell them they are doing great and try to boost their self esteem and will power.    i have got no sympathy for stupid fucks who dont want to put out the effort to change their bodies.

flexingtonsteele

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #154 on: June 29, 2008, 11:39:13 PM »
*looks into mirror while on treadmill doing cardio 4 weeks into diet*

" oh holy shit, why the fuck am i dideting? i dont even have any goddamn muscle to begin with ! okay, im finished doing this fucking cardio , time to refeed and have a couple super high carb days and try to pac on some muscle ! "

*two days later*

" why the fuck am i going high carb, im a fat piece of shit and ive got enough muscle to look decent at a low body fat! ahh fuck. zero carbs for a couple days + 3 hours of cardio ! "

REPEAT

 ;D



Well I have to agree kinda with coach on this one Candyman. If you ever have an obese client, Dont give them too much to do or change.

Its taken them along time to become a fat ass, so its going to take an even longer time for them to change. Over the years traveling the path of obesity they've picked up ALOT of bad habits. So take your time with these people. If you can make ONE change thats plenty, then let them decide the pace they will continue to make progress at.

Because until they REALLY want to change they wont, they'll keep making excuses like they have been up to this point in their lives.

I once trained a guy who was close to 400lbs, and it was the most frustrating thing in my life. Hed do great for a few months lose a ton of weight, then make some excuse to sabotage himself. Now about 3 years later, he sends me emails on how he's changed his life, but how it took him that long to do it. He know reads t-nation and bb.com regularly for articles and advice and has completed a few velocity diets and has finally kept the weight off.

So to end this dizzle. Your honestly not really going to help an OBESE person lose weight. They wont lose weight until they really want to. You as the trainer are just a tool they need to use to fix their lives.


lift 456

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #155 on: June 30, 2008, 07:37:41 PM »
cardio is a waste.  you should train hard enough so that it's unnecessary
I

The Coach

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #156 on: June 30, 2008, 08:13:25 PM »
cardio is a waste.  you should train hard enough so that it's unnecessary

No, cardio isn't a waste by anymeans, but there are training routeins that it all of the energy systems and will burn fat just as well.

lift 456

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #157 on: June 30, 2008, 08:17:09 PM »
No, cardio isn't a waste by anymeans, but there are training routeins that it all of the energy systems and will burn fat just as well.

What high school do you "Coach" at?
I

The Coach

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #158 on: June 30, 2008, 10:04:30 PM »
I don't coach at any high school

Cap

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #159 on: June 30, 2008, 10:15:09 PM »
Bottom line, compare Tyson Gay (or any sprinter) to most people doing BBing cardio and see the difference.  Every college sprinter I worked with, male or female, was cut and vascular.
Squishy face retard

candidizzle

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #160 on: June 30, 2008, 10:17:07 PM »
Bottom line, compare Tyson Gay (or any sprinter) to most people doing BBing cardio and see the difference.  Every college sprinter I worked with, male or female, was cut and vascular.
compare a competitive sprinter to a competitive bodybuilder...   


exactly


The Coach

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #161 on: June 30, 2008, 10:21:09 PM »
Another fine analogy candizzle :(

candidizzle

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #162 on: June 30, 2008, 10:24:30 PM »
Another fine analogy candizzle :(
your comparing the physique of a marathon runner, to that of a sprinter; and using that to support your argument.

THAT

is complete horseshit

bbing cardio IS NOT RUNNING

running runs off glucose.

walking runs off fat

low intensity cardio does not burn muscle, high intensity cardio does


sure, sprinters are more muscular than runner.

but , sprinters are FAR LESS muscular than bodybuilders who take walks.

hope this helps.


dummy  :)

The Coach

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #163 on: June 30, 2008, 10:25:59 PM »
Ok...whatever you say :(

Super Natural

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #164 on: July 01, 2008, 03:22:35 AM »
HIIT, slow and steady, medium intensity cardio etc...IMO they all have their place and use. I have a heirachy of fatloss tools which I use and I think depends on availiable recovery and diet to a degree i.e. I don't think HIIT is a good idea on extremely low carb plans...we all have limited recovery so starting with weight training as my number one priority (5x a week) I then do HIIT medium intensity cardio where I can (maybe 2-3 times a week) and then longer slow and steady cardio to fill in the gaps.(2-3 times a week) There's no debating it! HIIT does burn more fat more effieciently but is very draining on the body especially when your already training very hard with weights -so you must be careful...that being said don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... I believe slow and steady has it's place as it does expend extra calories without too much effecting glycogen stores and recovery and can make a difference to fat loss WHEN in a slight calorie deficiet. 

the End!  ;D

oldtimer1

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #165 on: July 01, 2008, 06:40:49 AM »
I was a sprinter in High school and college.  Older guys have to be careful with sprinting.  It's so easy to pull a hamstring or calf tendon.  Warm ups are not to be taken lightly when your past your forties.  It's also incredibly hard on the heart so it's not for a older guy who's getting into shape without a heart check up.

Having said the above I think it's a great form of cardio for preserving muscle.  Who hasn't over done conventional cardio and have lost muscle and strength?  I think doing 60 yard/meter sprints is a little to intense.  The risk of injury is to great and I think you need a little more distance to burn up the fat.   Try going to a high school track and sprint a half lap.    After sprinting 220 yards you should rest by fast walking 220 yards.  Repeat 6 times.  Don't forget to warm up.  You should see the fat burn off at an alarming rate. 

The current thought of low intensity cardio does work.  Walking for 30/40 minutes does burn the calories without cutting into recuperation.  It just takes a long time for this grandma type cardio to give you results. 

The body adapts for survival when training.  Gaining muscle and losing fat is an adaptation to a stressor.   To much long distance running will make your body shed fat and any unnecessary muscle to survive.  How many elite distance runners have a muscular physique?  Distance runners need muscles with endurance.  They don't need the strength to squat 400lbs; bench 300lbs; or sprint a 48 second quarter.   

Use cardio by all means for health, endurance, and to lose fat.  Just don't over do it if bodybuilding is your primary goal.  If your a bodybuilder then lifting weights is your primary activity. 

Sprinters have a muscular physiques.  To sprint you need power and strength.  Intervals preserve lean body mass better than long distance runs at a moderate speed. 

I think the heart rate fat zone burn is old news.  It doesn't matter what fuel your body uses during cardio.  Whether it's glucose or fat it's the total caloric cost that matters.  On Clarence Bass's site he puts out his research on this very topic. 

I find that there are basically three intentsities of cardio.  Some use low intensity like walking so they won't interfere with recovery from lifting.  There is the high intensity interval crowd that is effective but it's easy to burn out from.  The middle of the road  that use basically long slow distance will hurt a bodybuilders goals if used to often.   I think the bottom line for a bodybuilder is to use aerobics.  If it cuts into your lean muscle mass then cut back if bodybuilding is your primary goal.  Using to much low intensity aerobics can sacrifice muscle at the body adapts to the stressor presented.  High intensity will better at preserving muscle. Since bodybuilders are not training to be functional in any athletic activity you would judge the amount of cardio by cosmetics.   

The heart is the most important muscle.  It should be trained hard even if you can't see it.
 

Coach gave some great advice.  In athletics in general bodybuilders are laughed at as oiled up drug using guys posing in speedos.  A non functional athlete. Don't get me wrong I have been lifting weights for over 30 years.

Real physiques do look like sprinters, olympic lifters, running backs, MMA fighters and yes even swimmers.  I think a natural bodybuilder should use as stated in the post by super natural is a varied approach.  Interval sprints from 60 to 400 meters.  Even 4 x 800 meters is good with a fast quarter walk inbetween.  Intermediate approachs like 2 to 4 mile runs.  Lastly using low intensity like fast walking on a treadmill will save energy for lifting.  All can be applied to other forms of cardio like biking or rowing. 

affy

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #166 on: July 01, 2008, 08:36:03 AM »
summary...use both for maximum results


The Coach

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #167 on: July 01, 2008, 08:38:35 AM »
summary...use both for maximum results



I personally disagree and would start a whole new debate.

dj181

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #168 on: July 01, 2008, 12:22:15 PM »
HIIT, slow and steady, medium intensity cardio etc...IMO they all have their place and use. I have a heirachy of fatloss tools which I use and I think depends on availiable recovery and diet to a degree i.e. I don't think HIIT is a good idea on extremely low carb plans...we all have limited recovery so starting with weight training as my number one priority (5x a week) I then do HIIT medium intensity cardio where I can (maybe 2-3 times a week) and then longer slow and steady cardio to fill in the gaps.(2-3 times a week) There's no debating it! HIIT does burn more fat more effieciently but is very draining on the body especially when your already training very hard with weights -so you must be careful...that being said don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... I believe slow and steady has it's place as it does expend extra calories without too much effecting glycogen stores and recovery and can make a difference to fat loss WHEN in a slight calorie deficiet. 

the End!  ;D
good points! so i'm curious do you know about the tabata method? and if yes, what do you think about it? it's ultra intense but when they did their studies on it the athletes practiced it 5X a week :o

El Guapo

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #169 on: July 01, 2008, 04:30:26 PM »
HIIT, slow and steady, medium intensity cardio etc...IMO they all have their place and use. I have a heirachy of fatloss tools which I use and I think depends on availiable recovery and diet to a degree i.e. I don't think HIIT is a good idea on extremely low carb plans...we all have limited recovery so starting with weight training as my number one priority (5x a week) I then do HIIT medium intensity cardio where I can (maybe 2-3 times a week) and then longer slow and steady cardio to fill in the gaps.(2-3 times a week) There's no debating it! HIIT does burn more fat more effieciently but is very draining on the body especially when your already training very hard with weights -so you must be careful...that being said don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... I believe slow and steady has it's place as it does expend extra calories without too much effecting glycogen stores and recovery and can make a difference to fat loss WHEN in a slight calorie deficiet. 

the End!  ;D


looking much improved super nat.

flexingtonsteele

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #170 on: July 01, 2008, 06:14:54 PM »
HIIT, slow and steady, medium intensity cardio etc...IMO they all have their place and use. I have a heirachy of fatloss tools which I use and I think depends on availiable recovery and diet to a degree i.e. I don't think HIIT is a good idea on extremely low carb plans...we all have limited recovery so starting with weight training as my number one priority (5x a week) I then do HIIT medium intensity cardio where I can (maybe 2-3 times a week) and then longer slow and steady cardio to fill in the gaps.(2-3 times a week) There's no debating it! HIIT does burn more fat more effieciently but is very draining on the body especially when your already training very hard with weights -so you must be careful...that being said don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... I believe slow and steady has it's place as it does expend extra calories without too much effecting glycogen stores and recovery and can make a difference to fat loss WHEN in a slight calorie deficiet. 

the End!  ;D

Very intelligent post and your ripped to the bone! Coincidence I THINK NOT!!!!!

Moosejay

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #171 on: July 01, 2008, 08:03:02 PM »
HIIT, slow and steady, medium intensity cardio etc...IMO they all have their place and use. I have a heirachy of fatloss tools which I use and I think depends on availiable recovery and diet to a degree i.e. I don't think HIIT is a good idea on extremely low carb plans...we all have limited recovery so starting with weight training as my number one priority (5x a week) I then do HIIT medium intensity cardio where I can (maybe 2-3 times a week) and then longer slow and steady cardio to fill in the gaps.(2-3 times a week) There's no debating it! HIIT does burn more fat more effieciently but is very draining on the body especially when your already training very hard with weights -so you must be careful...that being said don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... I believe slow and steady has it's place as it does expend extra calories without too much effecting glycogen stores and recovery and can make a difference to fat loss WHEN in a slight calorie deficiet. 

the End!  ;D

Fantastic physique

Super Natural

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Re: Ending the cardio debate
« Reply #172 on: July 02, 2008, 12:30:33 AM »
good points! so i'm curious do you know about the tabata method? and if yes, what do you think about it? it's ultra intense but when they did their studies on it the athletes practiced it 5X a week :o

I've never used that method to be honest (I have heard of  it) I'm sure it would be effective for HIIT and would certainly burn a lot of calories (for a few weeks at a time 5x a week is possible but it would not be a long term approach) I think as long as it doesn't effect your recovery from weight training and you don't injured yourself a couple of times a week may be ok... like I said there's only so much you can do and need to do on top of hard weight training, dieting to get the results you want, you have to see what you can tolerate, it's a fine balance and you need to listen to your body. Me personally I prefer the recumbant bike for cardio purely because I can't injure myself and all I have to  do is push myself hard and meet or beat a certain distance or calorie out put (I use as a gauge of my progress). In the past I have tried doing High rep cleans before as a form of cardio and I found it too much, so now I'm a bit wary of using weights as a form of cardio.