somebody explain to me how ai hurts gains

[candidizzle]

 ive only heard one attempt at explaining why it would hurt gains to control aromitization...   the person said " estrogen refreshes androgen receptors"...now i dont know where i heard that but its the only reason i ever heard..   which to me doesnt make ANY SENSE at all...   "refresh" and androgen receptor?     how would that work? lol... or maybe i am just ignorant and that really can happpen.. who knows?

so does anybody have a legit explanation as to why moderate us of an ai would hinder gains?

to me, looking at the issue rom my small amount of knowledge, more testosterone can only be a good thing.

[Van_Bilderass]

Well, for one estrogen may be affect how steroids increase growth hormone levels (and consequently igf-1). Low estrogen = possibly blunted growth hormone boost.

[candidizzle]

ahhhhhh

okay, there is one



so does anything show that having super physiological levels of estrogen help the test boost gh (igf-1 too) any more than normal estrogen levels?

[The ChemistV2]

ahhhhhh

okay, there is one



so does anything show that having super physiological levels of estrogen help the test boost gh (igf-1 too) any more than normal estrogen levels?

Some people consider gains as extra bodyweight, which often translates to more water retention. Thus the popularity of large dose test cycles. When the estrogen is blunted, obviously less water is retained and less bodyweight. The anti-aromatase or anti-estrogen would then appear to prevent gains. Also more bodyfat is gained with higher estrogen levels which also greatly pleases the high test using perma-bulkers, which are what 90% of your gym- rat roid users look like. They love added bodyweight even if a lot of it is water and fat.

[Luolamies]

Super high levels of estrogen is never a good thing and more estrogen doesnt mean more test. Nolvadex and Clomid have been shown to reduce igf-1 levels for like 20% but it's really not that big of a deal...

[Van_Bilderass]

I suspect many pros avoid doing anti-estrogens as much as possible, I mean look at the gyno on almost all of them (like Ronnie for example). I remember Chad or Tom Prince saying some pro did hGH but had low IGF-1. When he dropped the Anti-E the IGF-1 increased and he improved dramatically.

[candidizzle]

Some people consider gains as extra bodyweight, which often translates to more water retention. Thus the popularity of large dose test cycles. When the estrogen is blunted, obviously less water is retained and less bodyweight. The anti-aromatase or anti-estrogen would then appear to prevent gains. Also more bodyfat is gained with higher estrogen levels which also greatly pleases the high test using perma-bulkers, which are what 90% of your gym- rat roid users look like. They love added bodyweight even if a lot of it is water and fat.

this is exactly what i think as well !

guys think all the bloat and water and fat is more muscle than they actually are gaining !


luol,  both of those are serms though. so that means you still have the armotase happening, but the estro doesnt effect anything. if you use ai, the aromatse is cut off and you have more testo than with a serm.....  so if a serm decreases gh igf-1 by 20% then i would assume a ai would effect it much less

[Van_Bilderass]

Also more bodyfat is gained with higher estrogen levels

I'm not sure about that. Estrogen is actually a lipolytic hormone. Looking at the research it doesn't seem promote fat storage, though it affects the fat storage pattern - where it's stored.

[candidizzle]

van, so it seems estrogen is involved in the conversion of gh into igf-1?

[Vet]

I'm not sure about that. Estrogen is actually a lipolytic hormone. Looking at the research it doesn't seem promote fat storage, though it affects the fat storage pattern - where it's stored.

You have to remember, "Estrogen" is actually different compounds with estradiol, estriol, and estrone being the three major compounds. 

Estradiol is the major "estrogen" which is produced by the conversion of testosterone to estrogen.

Estrone is in relatively low abundance, but it occurs from the conversion of androstenedion to estrogen via aromatase.  Estrone is also a relatively long lived hormone, converting to estrone sulfate which will act as a 'reservior" of estrogen. 

Both of these forms of estrogen will be present in bodybuilders taking supplemental anabolics---with the degree present depending on what they are specifically taking.  Estrone is a big factor with people taking prohormones and then thinking they had some magical testosterone hormone effects when in actuality, it was just estrogen that was being produced. 

Estriol is produced by the placenta during pregnancy so it really isn't something that should affect males in any way. 




There are definite fat metabolism effects.  Its progesterone in birth control pills that actually cuases women to gain weight, not the estrogen.  If I remember right, wasn't here a post on this forum about the East German use of anabolic steroids in the female athletes prior to the 1980 olympics?  Those women were all given (If i remember right) higher estrogen birth control pills for metabolic effects---and to control their cycles for maximal physical exertion. 

[Vet]

van, so it seems estrogen is involved in the conversion of gh into igf-1?

No, GH stimulates the liver to produce IGF-1. Lack of GH shuts down IGF-1 production. 

[candidizzle]

No, GH stimulates the liver to produce IGF-1. Lack of GH shuts down IGF-1 production. 

van mentioned that one top bodybuilder had HIGH gh, but LOW igf-1. and when he removed tha ai and let his estrogen rise, then his igf-1 increased.     

i understand how gh turns into igf-1..

in the scenario van provided it seemed estrogen influenced the rate of this ocnversion of gh into igf-1.

[candidizzle]

There are definite fat metabolism effects.  Its progesterone in birth control pills that actually cuases women to gain weight, not the estrogen.  If I remember right, wasn't here a post on this forum about the East German use of anabolic steroids in the female athletes prior to the 1980 olympics?  Those women were all given (If i remember right) higher estrogen birth control pills for metabolic effects---and to control their cycles for maximal physical exertion. 

so , are you saying that letting your estrogen raise will allow for greater fat loss?

[Van_Bilderass]

You have to remember, "Estrogen" is actually different compounds with estradiol, estriol, and estrone being the three major compounds. 

Estradiol is the major "estrogen" which is produced by the conversion of testosterone to estrogen.

Estrone is in relatively low abundance, but it occurs from the conversion of androstenedion to estrogen via aromatase.  Estrone is also a relatively long lived hormone, converting to estrone sulfate which will act as a 'reservior" of estrogen. 

Both of these forms of estrogen will be present in bodybuilders taking supplemental anabolics---with the degree present depending on what they are specifically taking.  Estrone is a big factor with people taking prohormones and then thinking they had some magical testosterone hormone effects when in actuality, it was just estrogen that was being produced. 

Estriol is produced by the placenta during pregnancy so it really isn't something that should affect males in any way. 




There are definite fat metabolism effects.  Its progesterone in birth control pills that actually cuases women to gain weight, not the estrogen.  If I remember right, wasn't here a post on this forum about the East German use of anabolic steroids in the female athletes prior to the 1980 olympics?  Those women were all given (If i remember right) higher estrogen birth control pills for metabolic effects---and to control their cycles for maximal physical exertion. 

I was mainly talking about E2, don't remember if the different estrogens had different effects on fat metabolism.

Yes, from my understanding progesterone is lipogenic while estrogens affect fat distribution patterns. Estrogen also has anorectic effects so is there really any advantage to suppressing it when trying to lose bodyfat? Especially trying to eradicate it with high dosages of potent AIs like letrozole?

[Van_Bilderass]

van mentioned that one top bodybuilder had HIGH gh, but LOW igf-1. and when he removed tha ai and let his estrogen rise, then his igf-1 increased.     

i understand how gh turns into igf-1..

in the scenario van provided it seemed estrogen influenced the rate of this ocnversion of gh into igf-1.

Check this thread. And the post on the last page by TP.

http://www.chadnicholls.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3149

[candidizzle]

damn./.. gotta be registered...   alright let me register

[candidizzle]

that thread says that serms, sepc. nolva, render igf-1 useless in the body..