Author Topic: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah  (Read 8957 times)

haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2008, 07:19:18 PM »
The Darius account-

Again note that the English translation uses the word "impaled" which is the translation of the Greek word anaskolopieisthai from the verb anaskolopizô meaning "to fix on a pole or stake, to impale".

3.159. [1] Βαβυλὼν μέν νυν οὕτω τὸ δεύτερον αἱρέθη. Δαρει̂ος δὲ ἐπείτε ἐκράτησε τω̂ν Βαβυλωνίων, του̂το μὲν σφέων τὸ τει̂χος περιει̂λε καὶ τὰς πύλας πάσας ἀπέσπασε: τὸ γὰρ πρότερον ἑλὼν Κυ̂ρος τὴν Βαβυλω̂να ἐποίησε τούτων οὐδέτερον: του̂το δὲ ὁ Δαρει̂ος τω̂ν ἀνδρω̂ν τοὺς κορυφαίους μάλιστα ἐς τρισχιλίους ἀνεσκολόπισε, τοι̂σι δὲ λοιποι̂σι Βαβυλωνίοισι ἀπέδωκε τὴν πόλιν οἰκέειν.

[3.159.1] Babulôn men nun houtô to deuteron hairethê. Dareios de epeite ekratêse tôn Babulôniôn, touto men spheôn to teichos perieile kai tas pulas pasas apespase: to gar proteron helôn Kuros tên Babulôna epoiêse toutôn oudeteron: touto de ho Dareios tôn andrôn tous koruphaious malista es trischilious aneskolopise, toisi de loipoisi Babulônioisi apedôke tên polin oikeein.

[3.159.1] Thus was Babylon the second time taken. Having mastered the Babylonians, Darius destroyed their walls and reft away all their gates, neither of which things Cyrus had done at the first taking of Babylon; moreover he impaled about three thousand men that were prominent among them; as for the rest, he gave them back their city to dwell in.[30]


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haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2008, 07:32:11 PM »
Evidence of impalement in the old testament:
The first mention of impalement in the Bible occurs in Genesis 40:19. The Jewish Publication Society's translation of the Hebrew text of this verse reads:

In three days Pharaoh will lift off your head and impale you upon a pole; and the birds will pick off your flesh. [Genesis 40:19][36]





The Smith's Bible Dictionary refers to this as "Crucifixion":
The Smith's Bible Dictionary also observes that the hangings reported in Genesis 40:19 refer to crucifixion.

Crucifixion was in use among the Egyptians, (Genesis 40:19); the Carthaginians, the Persians, (Esther 7:10); the Assyrians, Scythains, Indians, Germans, and from the earliest times among the Greeks and Romans. Whether this mode of execution was known to the ancient Jews is a matter of dispute. Probably the Jews borrowed it from the Romans. It was unanimously considered the most horrible form of death.[38]
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haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2008, 07:34:55 PM »
Evidence of english translation of impalement as "crucifixion"

The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (c. 37 – c. 100) reports many incidents of crucifixion in his Antiquities Of The Jews. Josephus uses only (ana)stauroun (the verb stauroun occurs frequently in the New Testament), even in his commentary on the verse Genesis 40:19.

[2.72] καὶ ὁ μὲν ὁμοίαν τὴν πρόρρησιν ἔσεσθαι τῃ̂ του̂ οἰνοχόου προσεδόκα: ὁ δὲ ̓Ιώσηπος συμβαλὼν τῳ̂ λογισμῳ̂ τὸ ὄναρ καὶ πρὸς αὐτὸν εἰπών, ὡς ἐβούλετ' ἂν ἀγαθω̂ν ἑρμηνευτὴς αὐτῳ̂ γεγονέναι καὶ οὐχ οἵων τὸ ὄναρ αὐτῳ̂ δηλοι̂, λέγει δύο τὰς πάσας ἔτι του̂ ζη̂ν αὐτὸν ἔχειν ἡμέρας: τὰ γὰρ κανα̂ του̂το σημαίνειν: [2.73] τῃ̂ τρίτῃ δ' αὐτὸν ἀνασταυρωθέντα βορὰν ἔσεσθαι πετεινοι̂ς οὐδὲν ἀμύνειν αὑτῳ̂ δυνάμενον. καὶ δὴ ταυ̂τα τέλος ὅμοιον οἱ̂ς ὁ ̓Ιώσηπος εἰ̂πεν ἀμφοτέροις ἔλαβε: τῃ̂ γὰρ ἡμέρᾳ τῃ̂ προειρημένῃ γενέθλιον τεθυκὼς ὁ βασιλεὺς τὸν μὲν ἐπὶ τω̂ν σιτοποιω̂ν ἀνεσταύρωσε, τὸν δὲ οἰνοχόον τω̂ν δεσμω̂ν ἀπολύσας ἐπὶ τη̂ς αὐτη̂ς ὑπηρεσίας κατέστησεν.

[2.72] kai ho men homoian tên prorrêsin esesthai têi tou oinokhoou prosedoka: ho de Iôsêpos sumbalôn tôi logismôi to onar kai pros auton eipôn, hôs eboulet' an agathôn hermêneutês autôi gegonenai kai ouch hoiôn to onar autôi dêloi, legei duo tas pasas eti tou zên auton echein hêmeras: ta gar kana touto sêmainein: [2.73] têi tritêi d' auton anastaurôthenta boran esesthai peteinois ouden amunein hautôi dunamenon. kai dê tauta telos homoion hois ho Iôsêpos eipen amphoterois elabe: têi gar hêmerai têi proeirêmenêi genethlion tethukôs ho basileus ton men epi tôn sitopoiôn anestaurôse, ton de oinochoon tôn desmôn apolusas epi tês autês hupêresias katestêsen.

[2.72] And he expected a prediction like to that of the cupbearer. But Joseph, considering and reasoning about the dream, said to him, that he would willingly be an interpreter of good events to him, and not of such as his dream denounced to him; but he told him that he had only three days in all to live, for that the [three] baskets signify, that on the third day he should be crucified, and devoured by fowls, while he was not able to help himself. Now both these dreams had the same several events that Joseph foretold they should have, and this to both the parties; for on the third day before mentioned, when the king solemnized his birth-day, he crucified the chief baker, but set the butler free from his bonds, and restored him to his former ministration.[37]

Note that the English translation uses the word "crucified" which is the translation of the words anastaurôthenta and anestaurôse from the Greek anastauroô meaning "to impale".
 
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haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #78 on: July 11, 2008, 07:38:08 PM »
I'm just posting crap from the link I posted, but that's all for now :P

There's evidence of egyptian impalement on their website as well, as i mentioned earlier.
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haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2008, 07:56:31 PM »
It seems that the debate pretty much rests on whether you can consider the egyptian punishment of impalement as "crucifixon". The authors of the article provide evidence that these punishments were in use at the time of Joseph or Moses, and later than that.

If the above is accepted as true, then you can make a pretty good case for the "crucifixion" mentioned in the [ENGLISH TRANSLATION of the] Qur'an.

I'm curious to check for this in my copy of the Qur'an, not only for the english translation but also the Arabic word used.

:)
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2008, 04:21:07 AM »
It seems that the debate pretty much rests on whether you can consider the egyptian punishment of impalement as "crucifixon". The authors of the article provide evidence that these punishments were in use at the time of Joseph or Moses, and later than that.

If the above is accepted as true, then you can make a pretty good case for the "crucifixion" mentioned in the [ENGLISH TRANSLATION of the] Qur'an.

I'm curious to check for this in my copy of the Qur'an, not only for the english translation but also the Arabic word used.

:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion

Crucifixion (from Latin crucifixio, noun of process crucifixio, from perfect passive participle crucifixus, fixed to a cross, from prefix cruci-, cross, + verb ficere, fix or do, variant form of facere, do or make )[1]is an ancient method of execution, whereby the condemned person is tied or nailed to a large wooden cross (of various shapes) and left to hang until dead.

The above sources you mentioned could be right, however they come from a single biased source.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2008, 08:27:36 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion

Crucifixion (from Latin crucifixio, noun of process crucifixio, from perfect passive participle crucifixus, fixed to a cross, from prefix cruci-, cross, + verb ficere, fix or do, variant form of facere, do or make )[1]is an ancient method of execution, whereby the condemned person is tied or nailed to a large wooden cross (of various shapes) and left to hang until dead.

The above sources you mentioned could be right, however they come from a single biased source.
They argue that this definition only considers the type of Roman crucifixion that Christ endured, which is the more modern and limited definition.

If you are correct, then there are several english translations of greek texts (which include the old testament as well I guess?) that are incorrect because they use the word "crucifixion".

But the argument still doesn't end there, because you have to prove beyond any doubt that the word used in the Qur'an specifically is talking about the modern crucifxion, and not any form of impalement.

As far as I care... It's interesting, but it's trivial nonetheless. It doesn't take away from the Qur'anic message.
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2008, 08:32:28 AM »
They argue that this definition only considers the type of Roman crucifixion that Christ endured, which is the more modern and limited definition.

If you are correct, then there are several english translations of greek texts (which include the old testament as well I guess?) that are incorrect because they use the word "crucifixion".

But the argument still doesn't end there, because you have to prove beyond any doubt that the word used in the Qur'an specifically is talking about the modern crucifxion, and not any form of impalement.

As far as I care... It's interesting, but it's trivial nonetheless. It doesn't take away from the Qur'anic message.

You're right, there are easier methods to destroy the koran.

For example, the koran states the sexual position, who orgasms first determine the sex of the child.

You as a muslim must accept this as 100% truth. It's not 100% truth, in fact it's 100% false, so I chose to dismantle the turthfulness of the koran through verses like this.
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haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2008, 08:43:10 AM »
You're right, there are easier methods to destroy the koran.

For example, the koran states the sexual position, who orgasms first determine the sex of the child.

You as a muslim must accept this as 100% truth. It's not 100% truth, in fact it's 100% false, so I chose to dismantle the turthfulness of the koran through verses like this.
hahahahah, if thats the case then it is hilarious  :D

Quote
You as a muslim must accept this as 100% truth. It's not 100% truth, in fact it's 100% false, so I chose to dismantle the turthfulness of the koran through verses like this.
The Qur'an isn't a book of science or history. But if you wish to point out contradictions, that's fine too. If they are true, then perhaps we need a new way to look at the Qur'an. I do ask you to keep it civil, however, because that's what dirty muzzies do, and not a fine english gentleman like yourself  ;D
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2008, 08:50:42 AM »
hahahahah, if thats the case then it is hilarious  :D
The Qur'an isn't a book of science or history. But if you wish to point out contradictions, that's fine too. If they are true, then perhaps we need a new way to look at the Qur'an. I do ask you to keep it civil, however, because that's what dirty muzzies do, and not a fine english gentleman like yourself  ;D

For a muslim the koran is an all encompassing rule book. It's nature is that it is 100% not fallible and has existed since the dawn of time of God. Any historical (which is strange considering it existed for eternity by gods side) or scientific statements must be fact.
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haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2008, 09:00:25 AM »
For a muslim the koran is an all encompassing rule book. It's nature is that it is 100% not fallible and has existed since the dawn of time of God. Any historical (which is strange considering it existed for eternity by gods side) or scientific statements must be fact.
Perhaps people have thought about the Qur'an like this for hundreds of years, and perhaps that's not the only way?  ;)
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #86 on: July 12, 2008, 09:02:07 AM »
Perhaps people have thought about the Qur'an like this for hundreds of years, and perhaps that's not the only way?  ;)

Afraid that's blasphemous :o.

Are you saying that muhammad was lying? Are you saying parts of the koran are incorrect?
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Deicide

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2008, 09:08:13 AM »
Afraid that's blasphemous :o.

Are you saying that muhammad was lying? Are you saying parts of the koran are incorrect?

Ah, give the kid some credit; I would rather have a liberal Muslim than one who believes that the Quran is the perfest word of the Creator of the universe.
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haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #88 on: July 12, 2008, 09:15:18 AM »
Afraid that's blasphemous :o.

Are you saying that muhammad was lying? Are you saying parts of the koran are incorrect?
All I said was that we view and interpret the Qur'an in a certain way, which is not necessarily the correct way. I would liken it to the way our views of the world have changed over the years, even though we've been living in the same world the whole time. That's all I'm going to say about that.

I should also remind you that I'm not really very educated in the Qur'an or Islam myself. What I grew up with and what I was indoctrianted with (to some extent) is what I know pretty much. This, even though I have the whole Qur'an commited to memory (parents forced me ;D)... its funny, us muzzies will very fluetnly and eloquently recite and memorise things they don't even understand, LOL!

Having come across some spiritual material of different sorts (but essentially all true spirituality is the same) there has been a shift in attitude in the way I view religion in general. So there's been an evolution in the way I view things, which would render the old ways as but lower levels of viewing spirituality. That's all.
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #89 on: July 12, 2008, 10:27:41 AM »
All I said was that we view and interpret the Qur'an in a certain way, which is not necessarily the correct way. I would liken it to the way our views of the world have changed over the years, even though we've been living in the same world the whole time. That's all I'm going to say about that.

I should also remind you that I'm not really very educated in the Qur'an or Islam myself. What I grew up with and what I was indoctrianted with (to some extent) is what I know pretty much. This, even though I have the whole Qur'an commited to memory (parents forced me ;D)... its funny, us muzzies will very fluetnly and eloquently recite and memorise things they don't even understand, LOL!

Having come across some spiritual material of different sorts (but essentially all true spirituality is the same) there has been a shift in attitude in the way I view religion in general. So there's been an evolution in the way I view things, which would render the old ways as but lower levels of viewing spirituality. That's all.

OK, enjoy hell fire. Be sure to shake my hand when we meet down there!
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haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2008, 10:44:33 AM »
Having said that, I'd like to see the scientific contradictions in it.

If they are indeed contraditions, then obviously muslims should change the way they interpret the Qur'an. Notice that I have not rejected the Qur'an in any way, so i should be fine as far as hell fire goes. you stay pretty comfy there by yourself bud  :D
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haider

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Re: Report: Schoolboys Get Detention for Refusing to Pray to Allah
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2008, 10:46:01 AM »
That doesn't go for all muslims ofcourse, I'm talking about the general case. I would like to add christians and jews to this lsit as well  ;)
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