Author Topic: Bahahaha !!!  (Read 12778 times)

Colossus_500

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2008, 10:23:58 AM »
I don't think that Colossus himself feels insulted, but that he loves God so much that it sometimes upsets him when people dis God.

A loose analogy could be along the lines of someone constantly bad-mouthing your wife or children or mother whom you love.... it may make you upset.
Excellent analogy, Stella!  Excellent!   :)

Colossus_500

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2008, 10:42:24 AM »
That's exactly what those nutty Muslims say when they start rioting and killing people over a cartoon of their Prophet or any number or perceived insults or even things that are not insulting but just forbidden by their religion
All the more reason that you have that personal relationship with God.  Muslims (and others who place the religion before God) do not take their burdens and joys to God Himself.  It's more about defending the religion that defending the one true God.  The personal relationship is key.  You can know all the scriptures back and forth, but until you make it personal, none of it will make sense.  This was the very issue of the Pharisees and Sadducees.  They knew the Law of Moses (the OT), but didn't accept Christ to be who He said He was....God. 

Butterbean

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2008, 12:47:47 PM »
Excellent analogy, Stella!  Excellent!   :)

Thanks Ro :)


  The personal relationship is key.  You can know all the scriptures back and forth, but until you make it personal, none of it will make sense.  This was the very issue of the Pharisees and Sadducees.  They knew the Law of Moses (the OT), but didn't accept Christ to be who He said He was....God. 
agree!
R

Straw Man

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2008, 12:48:41 PM »
Have you ever read any of the book of Psalms?  Or any of the OT or NT for that matter.  You'll see that I'm no different than David or Moses and the like. 

This is good dialog, stick boy!  :D  Really!  I appreciate you asking these questions.  I hope we can keep this going. 

Why don't you just tell me what passages you're referring to

All I see is a person whose fervent religious beliefs have driven him to the point where he feels the need to beat someone up.  

If God is really powerful then surely he doesn't need you to beat people up as a demonstration of the peace and comfort you receive from your personal relationship with him.

Colossus_500

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2008, 02:03:07 PM »
Why don't you just tell me what passages you're referring to

All I see is a person who fervent religious beliefs have driven him to the point where he feels the need to beat someone up. 

If God is really powerful then surely he doesn't need you to beat people up as a demonstration of the peace and comfort you receive from your personal relationship with him.
Read through the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), but I recommend starting in the book of John

John 3

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

 1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

 4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

 9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

 10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
John the Baptist's Testimony About Jesus

 22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."

 27To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.' 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.

 31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

tu_holmes

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2008, 02:08:25 PM »
Good thing they didn't change the word "gay" to "anal penis receiver".

How priceless would that have been?

:D

Straw Man

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2008, 02:55:54 PM »
Read through the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), but I recommend starting in the book of John

John 3

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

 1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

 4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

 9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

 10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
John the Baptist's Testimony About Jesus

 22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."

 27To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.' 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.

 31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."


where is the part where Jesus feels  ridiculed and then get's so mad he fantasizes about beating people to within an inch of their lives?

Deicide

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2008, 07:48:22 AM »
where is the part where Jesus feels  ridiculed and then get's so mad he fantasizes about beating people to within an inch of their lives?

The alleged Jesus of Nazareth gets angry at fig trees and curses them too....

12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: 13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. 14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
-Mark 11:12-14
I hate the State.

Colossus_500

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2008, 08:08:21 AM »
where is the part where Jesus feels  ridiculed and then get's so mad he fantasizes about beating people to within an inch of their lives?
John 2:13-16"The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. He told those who were selling the doves, "Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father's house a marketplace!"

Sounds like anger to me, wouldn't you say?  C'mon, bro!  Read the scriptures I mentioned yesterday.  Don't rely on me to give you all the answers ('cause I will let you down).  But I can tell you that I'm glad you're asking. 

Straw Man

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2008, 10:43:14 AM »
John 2:13-16"The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. He told those who were selling the doves, "Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father's house a marketplace!"

Sounds like anger to me, wouldn't you say?  C'mon, bro!  Read the scriptures I mentioned yesterday.  Don't rely on me to give you all the answers ('cause I will let you down).  But I can tell you that I'm glad you're asking. 

Was that passage in your prior post?....No.

I'm still not seeing how this compares to you.   In this case Jesus was upset about merchants making his fathers house into a marketplace (which makes me wonder how he'd feel about the mega-churches/religious businesses and the Dobson/Falwells/Robertsons of the world).

Your original post where you confessed your rage and desire to almost kill someone was in response to your perception that people are ridiculing your beliefs.  There's hardly a comparison to the passage you posted.

Look at it this way - I'm on the other side of the equation.  I live in a country run (a better word would be infected)  by religious kooks and surrounded by holier than thou Christians who are convinced that everyone must believe like they do or be doomed to eternal suffering.... The simple choice one is given is believe or die.   I think the greater emphasis is just on BELIEVE LIKE US

At times I feel just as frustrated as you and yet, even without the benefit of a personal relationship with a figment of my imagination or the comfort of the scriptures I never feel the need to attack and beat the people who oppose or ridicule my beliefs.

What is it about choosing to adopt a specific religious belief that turns people into, potentially, homicidal maniacs?

God, you know my heart and you know it angers me that I and my fellow believers are ridiculed as such.  In my mind and heart, I want so much vengeance, to the point of pummeling the nay-sayers within an inch of their life.  But when I dig deeper into my soul, I know that it is there you reside.  So I take comfort in your words spoken through the disciples.  Thank you, God.  I love you with all my heart, soul, and mind.  Amen

Butterbean

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2008, 11:09:53 AM »

What is it about choosing to adopt a specific religious belief that turns people into, potentially, homicidal maniacs?


Straw Man, I don't believe all people that have adopted a specific religious belief feel as Colossus may at times.   Some might though.  

I believe if someone dissed Colossus' family constantly, he would feel like pummeling them for that also.    People are different and have different responses to different stimuli.   I have no doubt that Colossus would not actually pummel someone for speaking disrespectfully; he is a good, good man.  But that doesn't mean certain feelings/thoughts don't come about when he is irritated!  (that all being said there are certain other things that do make me want to beat the hell out of people such as seeing them abuse an innocent child or animal etc.)

Personally I don't think I get "angry" w/people when they disrespect God - I feel more sad about it and mainly for their sakes.  But I know that God is in control and whatever happens or doesn't happen to that person will be something He allows or not.  

Thankfully, God will not force someone against their will to spend eternity with Him.  

The reason the people that live by you that believe Christ is Savior are trying to "convert" you is because they care about you and believe that if you accept Christ you will spend eternity in paradise.  They don't want to harm you by telling you the gospel message.   If you reject it that is your choice.   If they act "holier than thou" then they may have a problem with pride and/or may be "religious" instead of actually having a relationship with God.





R

Straw Man

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2008, 11:21:50 AM »
Straw Man, I don't believe all people that have adopted a specific religious belief feel as Colossus may at times.   Some might though.  

I believe if someone dissed Colossus' family constantly, he would feel like pummeling them for that also.  People are different and have different responses to different stimuli.   I have no doubt that Colossus would not actually pummel someone for speaking disrespectfully; he is a good, good man.  But that doesn't mean certain feelings/thoughts don't come about when he is irritated!  (that all being said there are certain other things that do make me want to beat the hell out of people such as seeing them abuse an innocent child or animal etc.)

Personally I don't think I get "angry" w/people when they disrespect God - I feel more sad about it and mainly for their sakes.  But I know that God is in control and whatever happens or doesn't happen to that person will be something He allows or not.  

Thankfully, God will not force someone against their will to spend eternity with Him.  

The reason the people that live by you that believe Christ is Savior are trying to "convert" you is because they care about you and believe that if you accept Christ you will spend eternity in paradise.  They don't want to harm you by telling you the gospel message.   If you reject it that is your choice.   If they act "holier than thou" then they may have a problem with pride and/or may be "religious" instead of actually having a relationship with God.



Stella - I guess my simple point would be that it seems that the more fervent one is with their religious beliefs the more they seem compelled to commit acts of violence in response to perceived insults.  

You don't see atheists or agnostics rioting in the streets over a cartoon or bombing abortion clinics.   Only god fearing muslims and christians do stuff like that

Butterbean

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2008, 11:35:19 AM »
Stella - I guess my simple point would be that it seems that the more fervent one is with their religious beliefs the more they seem compelled to commit acts of violence in response to perceived insults. 

I just don't think I agree with that unless a main teaching of the belief is to commit acts of violence.  The main teachings of Christianity are receiving Christ, sharing Him and serving others.


 

You don't see atheists or agnostics rioting in the streets over a cartoon or bombing abortion clinics.   Only god fearing muslims and christians do stuff like that
I don't think many Christians would riot in the streets over a cartoon and the people that bomb abortion clinics may or may not be Christian and it's possible that someone that would go through w/a bombing like that could have mental issues.

In any case, if a true Christian did bomb an abortion clinic, please know that they didn't get instructions to do so from the Christian bible.   There are extremist nuts in all belief systems.

I'd assume the Koran doesn't tell extreme Muslims to blow people up and riot in the streets but I don't know that much about the Koran.


Meanwhile, I'll reiterate that just because someone has a feeling of wanting to beat someone doesn't mean they will do it.
R

Dos Equis

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2008, 11:35:33 AM »
I agree with Stella's interpretation of Colossus' comments.  

The overwhelming majority of Christians do not commit acts of violence in the name of religion.  Bombing of abortion clinics doesn't happen that often and a handful of extremists don't represent the millions upon millions of Christians in this country.  

tu_holmes

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2008, 11:36:46 AM »
I agree with Stella's interpretation of Colossus' comments.  

The overwhelming majority of Christians do not commit acts of violence in the name of religion.  Bombing of abortion clinics doesn't happen that often and a handful of extremists don't represent the millions upon millions of Christians in this country.  

How many millions of muslims are there?

Serious question... What's the percentage of Muslims who commit a bombing?

I'd like to see the percentage figures on that.

Dos Equis

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2008, 11:50:04 AM »
How many millions of muslims are there?

Serious question... What's the percentage of Muslims who commit a bombing?

I'd like to see the percentage figures on that.

I don't know, but there are a lot of them.  I think one of the differences between Islam and Christianity is what Stella just pointed out:  the teachings are quite different.  Jihad isn't a part of Christian teachings.  Christians don't teach that murdering innocent civilians will result in an afterlife with 70 virgins.  As Stella mentioned, Christians by and large don't riot in the streets over cartoons.  There are many other examples.  Not really much of a comparison.     

Straw Man

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2008, 11:53:17 AM »
still - it's the people who take their religious beliefs off the deep end that commit acts of violence.  

I can't think of one instance of a radicalized agnostic or athiest who feels compelled by their specific belief to commit violence against those who either don't share those beliefs or those they feel have insulted their beliefs.

That special category seems to be reserved only to the religious types - one might even say that those people have let their religious beliefs drive them to the point of mental illness

tu_holmes

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2008, 11:55:58 AM »
I don't know, but there are a lot of them.  I think one of the differences between Islam and Christianity is what Stella just pointed out:  the teachings are quite different.  Jihad isn't a part of Christian teachings.  Christians don't teach that murdering innocent civilians will result in an afterlife with 70 virgins.  As Stella mentioned, Christians by and large don't riot in the streets over cartoons.  There are many other examples.  Not really much of a comparison.    

Still... since someone brought up the "extremists", I think it would be interesting to see a percentage of "extremists" in both Christianity and Muslim religions.

I think it would be very worthwhile information to have.

Dos Equis

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2008, 12:06:19 PM »
still - it's the people who take their religious beliefs off the deep end that commit acts of violence.  

I can't think of one instance of a radicalized agnostic or athiest who feels compelled by their specific belief to commit violence against those who either don't share those beliefs or those they feel have insulted their beliefs.

That special category seems to be reserved only to the religious types - one might even say that those people have let their religious beliefs drive them to the point of mental illness

History disagrees with you. 

Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history
By Dinesh D'Souza

RANCHO SANTA FE, CALIF. –
In recent months, a spate of atheist books have argued that religion represents, as "End of Faith" author Sam Harris puts it, "the most potent source of human conflict, past and present."
Columnist Robert Kuttner gives the familiar litany. "The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."
 
In his bestseller "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins contends that most of the world's recent conflicts - in the Middle East, in the Balkans, in Northern Ireland, in Kashmir, and in Sri Lanka - show the vitality of religion's murderous impulse.
 
The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism. The best example of religious persecution in America is the Salem witch trials. How many people were killed in those trials? Thousands? Hundreds? Actually, fewer than 25. Yet the event still haunts the liberal imagination.

It is strange to witness the passion with which some secular figures rail against the misdeeds of the Crusaders and Inquisitors more than 500 years ago. The number sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition appears to be about 10,000. Some historians contend that an additional 100,000 died in jail due to malnutrition or illness.

These figures are tragic, and of course population levels were much lower at the time. But even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls produced by the atheist despotisms of the 20th century. In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people.

Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power. Can the wars between England and France be called religious wars because the English were Protestants and the French were Catholics? Hardly.

The same is true today. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not, at its core, a religious one. It arises out of a dispute over self-determination and land. Hamas and the extreme orthodox parties in Israel may advance theological claims - "God gave us this land" and so forth - but the conflict would remain essentially the same even without these religious motives. Ethnic rivalry, not religion, is the source of the tension in Northern Ireland and the Balkans.

Blindly blaming religion for conflict

Yet today's atheists insist on making religion the culprit. Consider Mr. Harris's analysis of the conflict in Sri Lanka. "While the motivations of the Tamil Tigers are not explicitly religious," he informs us, "they are Hindus who undoubtedly believe many improbable things about the nature of life and death." In other words, while the Tigers see themselves as combatants in a secular political struggle, Harris detects a religious motive because these people happen to be Hindu and surely there must be some underlying religious craziness that explains their fanaticism.

Harris can go on forever in this vein. Seeking to exonerate secularism and atheism from the horrors perpetrated in their name, he argues that Stalinism and Maoism were in reality "little more than a political religion." As for Nazism, "while the hatred of Jews in Germany expressed itself in a predominantly secular way, it was a direct inheritance from medieval Christianity." Indeed, "The holocaust marked the culmination of ... two thousand years of Christian fulminating against the Jews."

One finds the same inanities in Mr. Dawkins's work. Don't be fooled by this rhetorical legerdemain. Dawkins and Harris cannot explain why, if Nazism was directly descended from medieval Christianity, medieval Christianity did not produce a Hitler. How can a self-proclaimed atheist ideology, advanced by Hitler as a repudiation of Christianity, be a "culmination" of 2,000 years of Christianity? Dawkins and Harris are employing a transparent sleight of hand that holds Christianity responsible for the crimes committed in its name, while exonerating secularism and atheism for the greater crimes committed in their name.

Religious fanatics have done things that are impossible to defend, and some of them, mostly in the Muslim world, are still performing horrors in the name of their creed. But if religion sometimes disposes people to self-righteousness and absolutism, it also provides a moral code that condemns the slaughter of innocents. In particular, the moral teachings of Jesus provide no support for - indeed they stand as a stern rebuke to - the historical injustices perpetrated in the name of Christianity.

Atheist hubris

The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people - the Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be eliminated in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants and their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay. Thus they confirm the truth of Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum, "If God is not, everything is permitted."

Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades.

It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html

Dos Equis

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2008, 12:07:39 PM »
Still... since someone brought up the "extremists", I think it would be interesting to see a percentage of "extremists" in both Christianity and Muslim religions.

I think it would be very worthwhile information to have.

I don't know how to obtain that kind of information, but I agree it would be useful. 

tu_holmes

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2008, 12:10:05 PM »
History disagrees with you. 

Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history
By Dinesh D'Souza

RANCHO SANTA FE, CALIF. –
In recent months, a spate of atheist books have argued that religion represents, as "End of Faith" author Sam Harris puts it, "the most potent source of human conflict, past and present."
Columnist Robert Kuttner gives the familiar litany. "The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."
 
In his bestseller "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins contends that most of the world's recent conflicts - in the Middle East, in the Balkans, in Northern Ireland, in Kashmir, and in Sri Lanka - show the vitality of religion's murderous impulse.
 
The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism. The best example of religious persecution in America is the Salem witch trials. How many people were killed in those trials? Thousands? Hundreds? Actually, fewer than 25. Yet the event still haunts the liberal imagination.

It is strange to witness the passion with which some secular figures rail against the misdeeds of the Crusaders and Inquisitors more than 500 years ago. The number sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition appears to be about 10,000. Some historians contend that an additional 100,000 died in jail due to malnutrition or illness.

These figures are tragic, and of course population levels were much lower at the time. But even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls produced by the atheist despotisms of the 20th century. In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people.

Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power. Can the wars between England and France be called religious wars because the English were Protestants and the French were Catholics? Hardly.

The same is true today. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not, at its core, a religious one. It arises out of a dispute over self-determination and land. Hamas and the extreme orthodox parties in Israel may advance theological claims - "God gave us this land" and so forth - but the conflict would remain essentially the same even without these religious motives. Ethnic rivalry, not religion, is the source of the tension in Northern Ireland and the Balkans.

Blindly blaming religion for conflict

Yet today's atheists insist on making religion the culprit. Consider Mr. Harris's analysis of the conflict in Sri Lanka. "While the motivations of the Tamil Tigers are not explicitly religious," he informs us, "they are Hindus who undoubtedly believe many improbable things about the nature of life and death." In other words, while the Tigers see themselves as combatants in a secular political struggle, Harris detects a religious motive because these people happen to be Hindu and surely there must be some underlying religious craziness that explains their fanaticism.

Harris can go on forever in this vein. Seeking to exonerate secularism and atheism from the horrors perpetrated in their name, he argues that Stalinism and Maoism were in reality "little more than a political religion." As for Nazism, "while the hatred of Jews in Germany expressed itself in a predominantly secular way, it was a direct inheritance from medieval Christianity." Indeed, "The holocaust marked the culmination of ... two thousand years of Christian fulminating against the Jews."

One finds the same inanities in Mr. Dawkins's work. Don't be fooled by this rhetorical legerdemain. Dawkins and Harris cannot explain why, if Nazism was directly descended from medieval Christianity, medieval Christianity did not produce a Hitler. How can a self-proclaimed atheist ideology, advanced by Hitler as a repudiation of Christianity, be a "culmination" of 2,000 years of Christianity? Dawkins and Harris are employing a transparent sleight of hand that holds Christianity responsible for the crimes committed in its name, while exonerating secularism and atheism for the greater crimes committed in their name.

Religious fanatics have done things that are impossible to defend, and some of them, mostly in the Muslim world, are still performing horrors in the name of their creed. But if religion sometimes disposes people to self-righteousness and absolutism, it also provides a moral code that condemns the slaughter of innocents. In particular, the moral teachings of Jesus provide no support for - indeed they stand as a stern rebuke to - the historical injustices perpetrated in the name of Christianity.

Atheist hubris

The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people - the Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be eliminated in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants and their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay. Thus they confirm the truth of Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum, "If God is not, everything is permitted."

Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades.

It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html

Interesting perspective, but I don't believe it.

Where are the statistics... I can list out wars and atrocities attributed to religion... Show me this information related to "lack of religion".

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2008, 12:22:48 PM »
History disagrees with you. 

Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history
By Dinesh D'Souza

RANCHO SANTA FE, CALIF. –
In recent months, a spate of atheist books have argued that religion represents, as "End of Faith" author Sam Harris puts it, "the most potent source of human conflict, past and present."
Columnist Robert Kuttner gives the familiar litany. "The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."
 
In his bestseller "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins contends that most of the world's recent conflicts - in the Middle East, in the Balkans, in Northern Ireland, in Kashmir, and in Sri Lanka - show the vitality of religion's murderous impulse.
 
The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism. The best example of religious persecution in America is the Salem witch trials. How many people were killed in those trials? Thousands? Hundreds? Actually, fewer than 25. Yet the event still haunts the liberal imagination.

It is strange to witness the passion with which some secular figures rail against the misdeeds of the Crusaders and Inquisitors more than 500 years ago. The number sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition appears to be about 10,000. Some historians contend that an additional 100,000 died in jail due to malnutrition or illness.

These figures are tragic, and of course population levels were much lower at the time. But even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls produced by the atheist despotisms of the 20th century. In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people.

Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power. Can the wars between England and France be called religious wars because the English were Protestants and the French were Catholics? Hardly.

The same is true today. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not, at its core, a religious one. It arises out of a dispute over self-determination and land. Hamas and the extreme orthodox parties in Israel may advance theological claims - "God gave us this land" and so forth - but the conflict would remain essentially the same even without these religious motives. Ethnic rivalry, not religion, is the source of the tension in Northern Ireland and the Balkans.

Blindly blaming religion for conflict

Yet today's atheists insist on making religion the culprit. Consider Mr. Harris's analysis of the conflict in Sri Lanka. "While the motivations of the Tamil Tigers are not explicitly religious," he informs us, "they are Hindus who undoubtedly believe many improbable things about the nature of life and death." In other words, while the Tigers see themselves as combatants in a secular political struggle, Harris detects a religious motive because these people happen to be Hindu and surely there must be some underlying religious craziness that explains their fanaticism.

Harris can go on forever in this vein. Seeking to exonerate secularism and atheism from the horrors perpetrated in their name, he argues that Stalinism and Maoism were in reality "little more than a political religion." As for Nazism, "while the hatred of Jews in Germany expressed itself in a predominantly secular way, it was a direct inheritance from medieval Christianity." Indeed, "The holocaust marked the culmination of ... two thousand years of Christian fulminating against the Jews."

One finds the same inanities in Mr. Dawkins's work. Don't be fooled by this rhetorical legerdemain. Dawkins and Harris cannot explain why, if Nazism was directly descended from medieval Christianity, medieval Christianity did not produce a Hitler. How can a self-proclaimed atheist ideology, advanced by Hitler as a repudiation of Christianity, be a "culmination" of 2,000 years of Christianity? Dawkins and Harris are employing a transparent sleight of hand that holds Christianity responsible for the crimes committed in its name, while exonerating secularism and atheism for the greater crimes committed in their name.

Religious fanatics have done things that are impossible to defend, and some of them, mostly in the Muslim world, are still performing horrors in the name of their creed. But if religion sometimes disposes people to self-righteousness and absolutism, it also provides a moral code that condemns the slaughter of innocents. In particular, the moral teachings of Jesus provide no support for - indeed they stand as a stern rebuke to - the historical injustices perpetrated in the name of Christianity.

Atheist hubris

The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people - the Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be eliminated in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants and their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay. Thus they confirm the truth of Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum, "If God is not, everything is permitted."

Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades.

It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html

correction - Dinesh D'Souza disagrees with me but his perspective on history is skewed.

The tyrants who committed these mass murders did NOT do it because of an attack against their alleged athiesm (and let's not forget that Hitler was most likely a Christian). 

They did it to gain power, assets, control over land and people.  It has NOTHING to do with their religious beliefs or lack there of. 

It is at best, disingenious to conflate the two.  At worst - it's an intentional misrepresenation or willfull ignorance which is exactly what I've come to expect from Dinesh D'Souza

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2008, 12:26:52 PM »
Interesting perspective, but I don't believe it.

Where are the statistics... I can list out wars and atrocities attributed to religion... Show me this information related to "lack of religion".

The stats are right here:   "In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people."

tu_holmes

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2008, 12:28:43 PM »
correction - Dinesh D'Souza disagrees with me but his perspective on history is skewed.

The tyrants who committed these mass murders did NOT do it because of an attack against their alleged athiesm (and let's not forget that Hitler was most likely a Christian). 

They did it to gain power, assets, control over land and people.  It has NOTHING to do with their religious beliefs or lack there of. 

It is at best, disingenious to conflate the two.  At worst - it's an intentional misrepresenation or willfull ignorance which is exactly what I've come to expect from Dinesh D'Souza

Hitler has an Alter boy in the catholic church and posed no threat to the Vatican.

Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church.  Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

In Mein Kampf he claimed he was a "soldier for Christ".

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.  It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth!  was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.  In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.  How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.  To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.  As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…  And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."  –Adolf Hitler, April 12, 1922

tu_holmes

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Re: Bahahaha !!!
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2008, 12:31:01 PM »
The stats are right here:   "In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people."


While Stalin was an atheist, he didn't do it to uphold an atheistic view, he did to to retain power. Not even remotely the same scenario. He also fought Nazi Germany in WW2... and was a big reason why they were defeated... So if you're going to give him the bad, you have to give him the good as well.

The Athiest helped defeat the horrible Christian in that instance.

;)