Author Topic: metformin + insulin  (Read 18407 times)

Vet

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Re: metformin + insulin
« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2008, 06:45:49 PM »
Well, how do you explain the extremely lean bodybuilders then, especially since you say many of them are severely insulin resistant? With the use of GH they stay much leaner throughout the off-season nowadays, even despite using lots of insulin too.

GH leads to higher insulin levels. Doesn't translate to higher bodyfat, so apparently the increase in insulin isn't enough to override the fat burning effects. Research shows that if you block the raise in FFA's you improve insulin sensitivity. The fat burning effects of GH are what leads to insulin resistance.

Other diet drugs used by bodybuilders can cause insulin resistance as well: the beta agonists and T3.

You are also looking at sedentary type II diabetics, not hard training bodybuilders. Bodybuilders make their muscles sensitive constantly by training hard. This will help drive glucose into muscle preferentially. Mild insulin resistance IMO is correlated with an extremely lean bodybuilder look - a disease state like actual type II diabetes is another matter.



I'm really not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to present things in a bit of a different light because I think we are all missing the boat to a degree with some of the stuff posted on the internet now days.  I'm not aware of any reasonable studies on the exact composition of "GH gut". 

My understanding is that there should really be different considerations on what is defined as "fat".  For instance there is subcutaneous vs peripheral vs central vs visceral adipodisity.   There is some relatively new thought that fat isn't just fat.  This goes so far as for some individuals to label fat as an "organ" not just a cellular type or a tissue type.   Stop and think of the fat people we all know.  I'm sure we can think of that one individual with rolls of arm fat but who don't have a huge abdomen relative to body size---this would be an individual with a high amount of subcutaneous fat or a predisposition for an individual to accumulate fat in that region of their body.   This may be catagorized as "pheripheral fat" with individuals who carry a large amount of "limb" fat---think of the women you know with saddle bags or floppy fat legs, yet they are actually relatively lean (relatively).

Central adipodisity shouldn't be confused with visceral adipodisity, but they are often interrelated.   Central adipodisity is the classic "bug guy" with a gut that we can all think of examples of also.   Individuals like this tend to carry quite a bit of weight in the abdomen, but have very lean and even vascular arms and legs.   A contributing factor to this are individuals with visceral adipodisity, where they carry a large amount of fat inside of their abdomenal cavity---which is what i'm talking about with bodbuilders.   They are lean peripherally, but thats not to say that they don't have a HUGE amount of omental fat secondary to the drug use. 

candidizzle

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Re: metformin + insulin
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2008, 06:52:04 PM »
either i am completely lost or you totally missed the point.


anyway, fat is stred in certain areas over other areas based on test/estro levels along with alpha and beta recpetor density in certain regions compared to other regions

Van_Bilderass

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Re: metformin + insulin
« Reply #77 on: July 20, 2008, 07:12:54 PM »
I'm really not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to present things in a bit of a different light because I think we are all missing the boat to a degree with some of the stuff posted on the internet now days.  I'm not aware of any reasonable studies on the exact composition of "GH gut". 

My understanding is that there should really be different considerations on what is defined as "fat".  For instance there is subcutaneous vs peripheral vs central vs visceral adipodisity.   There is some relatively new thought that fat isn't just fat.  This goes so far as for some individuals to label fat as an "organ" not just a cellular type or a tissue type.   Stop and think of the fat people we all know.  I'm sure we can think of that one individual with rolls of arm fat but who don't have a huge abdomen relative to body size---this would be an individual with a high amount of subcutaneous fat or a predisposition for an individual to accumulate fat in that region of their body.   This may be catagorized as "pheripheral fat" with individuals who carry a large amount of "limb" fat---think of the women you know with saddle bags or floppy fat legs, yet they are actually relatively lean (relatively).

Central adipodisity shouldn't be confused with visceral adipodisity, but they are often interrelated.   Central adipodisity is the classic "bug guy" with a gut that we can all think of examples of also.   Individuals like this tend to carry quite a bit of weight in the abdomen, but have very lean and even vascular arms and legs.   A contributing factor to this are individuals with visceral adipodisity, where they carry a large amount of fat inside of their abdomenal cavity---which is what i'm talking about with bodbuilders.   They are lean peripherally, but thats not to say that they don't have a HUGE amount of omental fat secondary to the drug use. 

It would be great if we could see DEXA scans of some pros to see what the hell is going on internally. I know Disgusted believes the guts are due to visceral fat. I have seen some data showing that visceral fat isn't insulin sensitive and we know that it's the fat that is first metabolized in dieters... so who knows if the pros are holding a lot of it at contest time? Does it change things when they are on a bunch of different drugs?

Quote
There is some relatively new thought that fat isn't just fat.  This goes so far as for some individuals to label fat as an "organ" not just a cellular type or a tissue type.   

Yup. An example, something called dSAT

Quote
Obesity (Silver Spring). 2007 Aug;15(8):1933-43. Links
Deep subcutaneous adipose tissue: a distinct abdominal adipose depot.
Walker GE, Verti B, Marzullo P, Savia G, Mencarelli M, Zurleni F, Liuzzi A, Di Blasio AM.

Laboratory of Molecular Biology, Istituto Auxologico Italiano, Via L. Cadorna, 90, Piancavallo, VB 28921, Italy. walkergi68@yahoo.com.

OBJECTIVE: Abdominal visceral (VAT) and subcutaneous adipose tissue (SAT) display significant metabolic differences, with VAT showing a functional association to metabolic/cardiovascular disorders. A third abdominal adipose layer, derived by the division of SAT and identified as deep subcutaneous adipose tissue (dSAT), may play a significant and independent metabolic role. The aim of this study was to evaluate depot-specific differences in the expression of proteins key to adipocyte metabolism in a lean population to establish a potential physiologic role for dSAT. RESEARCH METHODS AND PROCEDURES: Adipocytes and preadipocytes were isolated from whole biopsies taken from superficial SAT (sSAT), dSAT, and VAT samples obtained from 10 healthy normal weight patients (7 women and 3 men), with a mean age of 56.4 +/- 4.04 years and a mean BMI of 23.1 +/- 0.5 kg/m(2). Samples were evaluated for depot-specific differences in insulin sensitivity using adiponectin, glucose transport protein 4 (GLUT4), and resistin mRNA and protein expression, glucocorticoid metabolism by 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type-1 (11beta-HSD1) expression, and alterations in the adipokines leptin and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha). RESULTS: Although no regional differences in expression were observed for adiponectin or TNF-alpha, dSAT whole biopsies and adipocytes, while intermediary to both sSAT and VAT, reflected more of the VAT expression profile of 11beta-HSD1, leptin, and resistin. Only in the case of the intracellular pool of GLUT4 proteins in whole biopsies was an independent pattern of expression observed for dSAT. In an evaluation of the homeostatic model, dSAT 11beta-HSD1 protein (r = 0.9573, p = 0.0002) and TNF-alpha mRNA (r = 0.8210, p = 0.0236) correlated positively to the homeostatic model. DISCUSSION: Overall, dSAT seems to be a distinct abdominal adipose depot supporting an independent metabolic function that may have a potential role in the development of obesity-associated complications.




Vet

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Re: metformin + insulin
« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2008, 07:13:50 PM »
either i am completely lost or you totally missed the point.


anyway, fat is stred in certain areas over other areas based on test/estro levels along with alpha and beta recpetor density in certain regions compared to other regions


I got off on a tangent, which then led to another tangent, and then a cross over, and a curve.  I'm trying to keep things as simple as I can, but I think in doing so, I'm losing something in the translation from scientific jibberish to normal jibberish.  


Sorry.  

Vet

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Re: metformin + insulin
« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2008, 07:15:16 PM »
It would be great if we could see DEXA scans of some pros to see what the hell is going on internally. I know Disgusted believes the guts are due to visceral fat. I have seen some data showing that visceral fat isn't insulin sensitive and we know that it's the fat that is first metabolized in dieters... so who knows if the pros are holding a lot of it at contest time? Does it change things when they are on a bunch of different drugs?

Yup. An example, something called dSAT






I agree 100%.  I wonder what it'd take to get DEXA scans of the pros with "GH" gut?   I'm willing to bet thats a study that will never, ever be done unfortunately. 

candidizzle

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Re: metformin + insulin
« Reply #80 on: July 20, 2008, 07:17:31 PM »
ive always been under the impression it was enlarged organs inside the stomach, along with overdeveloped abdominal muscles.

and not just that, but some of these guys seem to take pride in the distension. i think it makes them feel powerful  :-X

Van_Bilderass

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Re: metformin + insulin
« Reply #81 on: July 20, 2008, 07:22:29 PM »
and not just that, but some of these guys seem to take pride in the distension. i think it makes them feel powerful  :-X

There are some chicks who like a big powerful belly too  :D