Bodybuilding judging!

[flexingtonsteele]

Whats wrong with it fellas??

Does anyone pay attention to what the judges are looking for nowadays. Because I no longer know.

I used to think that conditioning, symmetry, asthetics, muscularity were judged. But now I think its just a popularity contest.

What will it take for the judges to start juding physiques again. The drugs and supp companies have taken over and changed the ideal of what bodybuilding is all about.

Lets bring back the classic physique, but it needs to start with judging. If any judges are reading. This is what we want.

[DK II]

Whats wrong with it fellas??

Does anyone pay attention to what the judges are looking for nowadays. Because I no longer know.

I used to think that conditioning, symmetry, asthetics, muscularity were judged. But now I think its just a popularity contest.

What will it take for the judges to start juding physiques again. The drugs and supp companies have taken over and changed the ideal of what bodybuilding is all about.

Lets bring back the classic physique, but it needs to start with judging. If any judges are reading. This is what we want.

i agree, more is not always better.

[Vince B]

Who in their right minds would want to judge bodybuilding contests? Also, who picks the judges and on what criteria? The IFBB have a deviation system of assessing the judges. That system makes conformity essential and thus 'errant' judges are guided to doing what other judges are doing.

I don't want to discredit anyone who judges contests but it really is a difficult task made almost impossible with today's standards. Today you can put a bodybuilder out of the placings just because his conditioning isn't on. How did this nonsense evolve? I suppose the athletes have to be separated and that is one method used to do so. The conditioning is way too important in contests. Look at the mess in judging the women bodybuilders to see how far this has evolved. The current standards make it very easy to 'fix' contests and that is why so many top shows are so controversial. Seems to me the whole system is one that reflects conformity with the person who picks the judges.

[chaos]

Somewhere along the line, bigger became better, at the cost of shape and symmetry.

[Vince B]

Size should always be the biggest factor in bodybuilding because that is what it is mainly about. Definition shouldn't be so important. The judges don't have a clue about what to judge any more in the top IFBB shows.

[_bruce_]

The breeding cattle look sucks.
If mass is the main concern then guys like Paco would be good bodybuilders.

[Vince B]

Suppose you have identical twins in a bb contest. Well, if they are identical and one is bigger then that twin should win. We as bodybuilders are always trying to get bigger muscles.

Some people argue that overall body appearance is what counts most. Yes, that cannot be ignored. So just being huge isn't sufficient to win a major title. You also have to possess good shape, be cut, etc., etc.

Because conditioning is so important in many contests the competitors come in cut to ribbons and many lose size and shape by doing so. When this happens I guess it leads to taking zillions of drugs to get that fullness. If we want to return to the era when bodybuilders looked better then definition has to be not so important and shape and overall appearance more so.

[Swedish Viking]

Suppose you have identical twins in a bb contest. Well, if they are identical and one is bigger then that twin should win. We as bodybuilders are always trying to get bigger muscles.

Some people argue that overall body appearance is what counts most. Yes, that cannot be ignored. So just being huge isn't sufficient to win a major title. You also have to possess good shape, be cut, etc., etc.

Because conditioning is so important in many contests the competitors come in cut to ribbons and many lose size and shape by doing so. When this happens I guess it leads to taking zillions of drugs to get that fullness. If we want to return to the era when bodybuilders looked better then definition has to be not so important and shape and overall appearance more so.

  This is an interesting point.  When I first read it, I disagreed, but you might be winning me over a bit-and I'm not a size junky.

[Vince B]

Can you imagine being a judge at the Mr Olympia? After the contest many ask the judges why they placed contestants the way they did. Today it is easy to make statements about conditioning and that seems to be sufficient and the end of any debate. Well, conditioning isn't at all easy to obtain and many have missed the mark by a week or so. Are the judges that shallow that they rely almost solely on conditioning to separate the competitors?

There is another sport where one factor overrides anything else done in the performance. Well, there are at least two sports. I am thinking about diving. No matter how amazing and perfect the dive, if the entry is not spot on then no high marks are awarded. A similar thing happens in gymnastics where the landing in many events is all important to get the highest scores.

The analogy for bodybuilding is a perfect physique will lose a lot of points if conditioning isn't optimal. How this standard evolved is one of those things. The IFBB has allowed this distortion in judging and look at the controversies in major contests today. Well, if the IFBB judges were consistent then maybe we could all adjust to what is decided. However, in the last Olympia, for example, conditioning wasn't the most important factor. Reputation was. Thus, Wolf would not win the Olympia no matter how big and cut he was. He had to pay his dues or some nonsense like that. I mean, Cutler and Wolf were never compared in the lineup which really smells of foul play. How on earth was it possible that no judges wanted to see them together? Ah, the mysteries of the IFBB and the amazing fact that the majority continue to accept whatever decisions are made in those contests.

[Ron]

I think that is why you have quite a few judges, because each has their own opinons.

In the Olympia, there are 11 judges, with the top 2 and bottom 2 scores being discarded. I know for a fact that not all of the judges agreed, as you saw with Jay Cutler vs. Victor Martinez. Dorian Yates was a judge, and he had Cutler in third.

In NPC contests, local ones have about 5 or 7 judges, while national contests have 9 judges or something like that.  They don't agree. Just look at the scorecards from this past weeks Master's Nationals. Seven judges and many have their own opinions. That is why you take an average score.

http://www.getbig.com/results/mens/npcmastersnational.htm

[Vince B]

You know, it must be pretty difficult to make contests unbiased. If the top two and bottom two scores are discarded then that means only 7 people are judging the Olympia. If the judges are qualified and properly selected then why should any scores be discarded? I would rather have all the scores from all the judges. That seems more valid than discarding 4 scores.

The IFBB use a method to assess whether judges have done a good job or not. If your scores deviate too much from what the others have awarded then you score low as a judge. The problem here is the low scoring judge might be the best judge in the panel. Well, what criteria can be used to assess whether this is so? I suppose you could get a panel of judges to rate the competitors from viewing the contest, then using photos and videos to make comparisons. So, it really can't be done that the judges have to be judged because if this were to happen then why do we need the judges and not the judges of the judges?

Suppose someone gets a couple of 1st place scores and nothing above 3rd. Those 1st place scores might be very important. I mean, why assume it is bias or incompetence? If this happened in the Olympia then the two judges who thought this person was the best don't count. That just doesn't seem right.

Let us acknowledge that the sport is not a big one and it would be easy to select judges knowing in advance who they prefer to win a contest like the Olympia. Add the deviation method and you then have a system that generates agreement and conformity.

We heard Frank Zane tell us he prefers Dexter or anyone aesthetic in the lineup. If someone didn't want Frank's ideals to win they simply don't invite him to judge. I wonder if this sort of thing happens in the IFBB? It is always a problem deciding who picks the judges and on what criterion.

In my opinion, if they are going to discard scores then they should select a much larger panel in the first place. I think something like 21 judges should suffice. The minimum should be 15.