‘Pre-Emptive Pardons, are they serious?

[Hugo Chavez]

Conservative Lawyers Urge Bush To Issue ‘Pre-Emptive Pardons’ To Officials Involved In Illegal Programs»


The New York Times reported this weekend that “[f]elons are asking President Bush for pardons and commutations at historic levels as he nears his final months in office, a time when many other presidents have granted a flurry of clemency requests.” However the Times noted that despite commuting Scooter Libby’s prison sentence, applicants “should expect to be disappointed” because Bush “has made little use of his clemency power” compared to past presidents.

Except perhaps if you participated in any illegal activity involving the Bush administration’s controversial counterterrorism programs. According to the Times, “several members of the conservative legal community” in Washington D.C. are urging Bush to issue “pre-emptive pardons” to those involved so as to “not be exposed even to the risk of an investigation and expensive legal bills”:

Such a pardon would reduce the risk that a future administration might undertake a criminal investigation of operatives or policy makers involved in programs that administration lawyers have said were legal but that critics say violated laws regarding torture and surveillance.

Some legal analysts said Mr. Bush might be reluctant to issue such pardons because they could be construed as an implicit admission of guilt. […]

“The president should pre-empt any long-term investigations,” said Victoria Toensing, who was a Justice Department counterterrorism official in the Reagan administration. “If we don’t protect these people who are proceeding in good faith, no one will ever take chances.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/21/bush-preemptive-pardons/

[240 is Back]

I predicted 2 years ago that Bush would issues probably 2500 or 3500 blanket pardons for a list of folks we've never heard of.  That way, when Kuscinish and Starr lead the 911 Inquiries (cool name, huh? lol) in 6 or 8 years, people won't have to start pointing fingers.

[Decker]

He'll hand out more pardons than his father did in the Iran/Contra Affair.

Of course GW Bush will still have the 'Kissinger Travelogue'.

[Dos Equis]

There are questionable pardons at the end of every final presidential term.

[240 is Back]

There are questionable pardons at the end of every final presidential term.

Hi mark Rich!

[Hugo Chavez]

There are questionable pardons at the end of every final presidential term.

really, I didn't know they had already done """""Pre-emptive"""" pardons... 

[Dos Equis]

really, I didn't know they had already done """""Pre-emptive"""" pardons... 

Nixon was was "preemptive" pardon.  So were the Iran-Contra folks.  I'm sure Clinton gave out plenty as well. 

[Hugo Chavez]

Nixon was was "preemptive" pardon.  So were the Iran-Contra folks.  I'm sure Clinton gave out plenty as well. 

yea but shit already hit the fan in those cases.

[Decker]

yea but shit already hit the fan in those cases.

Of course.  The rightwing nutjobs made cogent points like this:

Look! Clinton is pardoning felons!  What a scumbag!

No shit he pardoned felons.  That's what a pardon is.

At least Clinton's pardon isn't comparable to the ass-covering treasonous pardons of Iran/Contra done by Bush I.

[Dos Equis]

Was this a "preemptive" pardon?

John Deutch is a different case, having served as President Clinton's CIA director.

Pardoned by President Clinton for charges he had mishandled government secrets -- but before the Department of Justice could file the proper paperwork against him --

Deutch, now a professor at MIT, gave Sen. Clinton the maximum allowable donation, $2,300.

Neither Herdlinger nor Regalado nor Deutch could be reached for comment.

"This is another argument for restoring the presidential public financing system," said Common Cause's Mary Boyle. "Is there an appearance here that this is kind of a payback for the pardons? I'm sure it could look that way for some people. But they're exercising their free and perfectly legal right to give a campaign contribution."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=3866786

Then there is this guy:

Today's hearing was the first in a Congressional probe into former President Clinton's controversial pardon of billionaire fugitive Marc Rich. The 65-year-old financier was among the 140 individuals Bill Clinton pardoned during the final hours of his presidency. Rich fled to Switzerland in 1983 after being charged, with his colleague Pincus Green, for tax evasion, fraud, and illegal trading with Iran. Both men were indicted in absentia and never faced trial. Both received a full pardon. Today on Capitol Hill, members of the House Government Reform Committee asked witnesses to shed light on how and why Rich's pardon was granted.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june01/pardonprobe_02-08.html

And this:

In 1977, President Carter established two programs to assist war resisters. In January of 1977 he declared an unconditional amnesty for draft resisters, both accused and those who could face possible prosecution. Later that year, he set up the two stage "pardon" process for military absentees.

http://www.afsc.org/youthmil/conscientious-objection/Vietnam-war-resisters.htm

[Hugo Chavez]

Sorry, still sounds like a huge difference bb.  "Hey mr president, you know all that illegal shit you had us do through your terms, just in case why don't you write us all prememptive pardons"  Still looks quite a bit different to me. 

[Dos Equis]

I disagree.  As I said, there are always questionable pardons, particularly at the end of a president's final term.  And I just provided several examples of "preemptive" pardons by multiple presidents.  None of them pass the smell test IMO. 

[Decker]

I disagree.  As I said, there are always questionable pardons, particularly at the end of a president's final term.  And I just provided several examples of "preemptive" pardons by multiple presidents.  None of them pass the smell test IMO. 

None of those compare to Pres. Bush's pardoning of Cap Weinberger and company for the treasonous Iran/Contra affair.  Those pardons are directly connected to the integrity and security of our country:  selling stinger missiles to our Iranian enemies was not a really good idea.


It's a good thing that democrats held the Congress for both Reagan and Bush b/c impeachment of either was really called for and those wishywashy democrats did not want to put the country through that.

[Dos Equis]

None of those compare to Pres. Bush's pardoning of Cap Weinberger and company for the treasonous Iran/Contra affair.  Those pardons are directly connected to the integrity and security of our country:  selling stinger missiles to our Iranian enemies was not a really good idea.


It's a good thing that democrats held the Congress for both Reagan and Bush b/c impeachment of either was really called for and those wishywashy democrats did not want to put the country through that.

They don't compare?  That's your opinion (obviously).  All of the pardons I listed stink. 

I also think draft dodging and desertion fall squarely within the scope of "the integrity and security of our country."

[Decker]

They don't compare?  That's your opinion (obviously).  All of the pardons I listed stink. 

I also think draft dodging and desertion fall squarely within the scope of "the integrity and security of our country."

I don't rank that spin with the cold hard fact that Reagan/Bush funded rightwing deathsquads in El Salvador with proceeds from the sale of stinger missiles to our enemy Iran.

[Dos Equis]

I don't rank that spin with the cold hard fact that Reagan/Bush funded rightwing deathsquads in El Salvador with proceeds from the sale of stinger missiles to our enemy Iran.

I'd like to hear your spin of . . . I mean justification for the pardons of Deutch, Rich, and the wartime deserters. 

[Decker]

I'd like to hear your spin of . . . I mean justification for the pardons of Deutch, Rich, and the wartime deserters. 

Are you getting cagey with me? 

That's funny.  Comparing who's worst. 

Have a great day my friend.

This is my second last day on the job here in Milwaukee and I have to get my new apt. ready.  Just thought you'd like an update.

Oh yes, trading with the enemy is much worse than desertion.

[Dos Equis]

Are you getting cagey with me? 

That's funny.  Comparing who's worst. 

Have a great day my friend.

This is my second last day on the job here in Milwaukee and I have to get my new apt. ready.  Just thought you'd like an update.

Oh yes, trading with the enemy is much worse than desertion.

lol.  I'm not trying to say one is worse than the other.  I said none of them pass the smell test.

Good luck with the new job. 

[240 is Back]

Oh yes, trading with the enemy is much worse than desertion.

agreed