How easy is it to get a M.A. or Ph.D. in your country??

[Hereford]

Isn't it?

I once nearly got into a fight with one of these typical communist dumbass students who was protesting against study fees by telling him:

"Just smoke less weed and stop binch drinking on the weekends and you have 1000 euros easily every year".

he got totally mad on "how university destroys people's lives by taking fees" -- "Education, not for sale" was their motto. 

Hahaha... love that line of thought.

I knew numerous people back in school who took every kind of student aid available, then actually took their aid and did things like partaking in the aforementioned weekly binge drinking and drug purchasing. I know four who actually went to Europe all summer on student aid. I had 1-2 jobs the entire time I was in college, and it was always nice to see/hear the communist neo-hippies protesting at the administration building on weekends on student aid issues while I was driving by on my way to work.

What sucks for them is that you eventually have to pay most student aid back at some point, but these are all part of the American 'credit card generation'. I have one friend who graduated with 60K in debt PLUS credit cards, and really isn't qualified for anything preofessionally. That's kinda scary to me. He currently works a job grossing 28K a year.

I would have LOVED to be able to pay 1000 Euros a year for school.

[wavelength]

What you pay now in Germany or Austria should be no problem for any serious student. I do think that higher education should be affordable for everyone though.

[Deicide]

Isn't it?

I once nearly got into a fight with one of these typical communist dumbass students who was protesting against study fees by telling him:

"Just smoke less weed and stop binch drinking on the weekends and you have 1000 euros easily every year".

he got totally mad on "how university destroys people's lives by taking fees" -- "Education, not for sale" was their motto. 

Die wissen echt nicht, wie gut sie es haben. Statt dessen verbringen sie Ewigkeiten am Studieren, vergeuden ihre Zeit, brauchen 10 Jahre, bis sie was in der Hand haben, und gerade, weil es sie nix kostet, nehmen sie sich die Zeit erst recht, weil das Studium keinen Geldverlust bedeutet. Echt traurig. Natuerlich wird dat ganze noch schlimmer dadurch, dass der Studienaufbau absolut beschissen ist und nur dazu beitraegt, dass alles sich in die Laenge zieht...naja...rant over.

[DK II]

Hahaha... love that line of thought.

I knew numerous people back in school who took every kind of student aid available, then actually took their aid and did things like partaking in the aforementioned weekly binge drinking and drug purchasing. I know four who actually went to Europe all summer on student aid. I had 1-2 jobs the entire time I was in college, and it was always nice to see/hear the communist neo-hippies protesting at the administration building on weekends on student aid issues while I was driving by on my way to work.

What sucks for them is that you eventually have to pay most student aid back at some point, but these are all part of the American 'credit card generation'. I have one friend who graduated with 60K in debt PLUS credit cards, and really isn't qualified for anything preofessionally. That's kinda scary to me. He currently works a job grossing 28K a year.

I would have LOVED to be able to pay 1000 Euros a year for school.

Same in germany. I know people in their 40s that are still paying back student aid.

Die wissen echt nicht, wie gut sie es haben. Statt dessen verbringen sie Ewigkeiten am Studieren, vergeuden ihre Zeit, brauchen 10 Jahre, bis sie was in der Hand haben, und gerade, weil es sie nix kostet, nehmen sie sich die Zeit erst recht, weil das Studium keinen Geldverlust bedeutet. Echt traurig. Natuerlich wird dat ganze noch schlimmer dadurch, dass der Studienaufbau absolut beschissen ist und nur dazu beitraegt, dass alles sich in die Laenge zieht...naja...rant over.

Spot on. Students also don't have to pay taxes in germany and have (almost) free transportation. When they started the 1000 Euro per year fees in my university, almost 10,000 students dropped off that year.

[Deicide]

Same in germany. I know people in their 40s that are still paying back student aid.

Spot on. Students also don't have to pay taxes in germany and have (almost) free transportation. When they started the 1000 Euro per year fees in my university, almost 10,000 students dropped off that year.

Der feste Begriff heisst: 'to drop out'

  guy finde ich das schlechterdings genial....

[DK II]

Der feste Begriff heisst: 'to drop out'

  guy finde ich das schlechterdings genial....

Stimmt, jetzt wo du's sagst.

Was ist genial? Dass soviele aufhören? Fand ich auch.

[Deicide]

Stimmt, jetzt wo du's sagst.

Was ist genial? Dass soviele aufhören? Fand ich auch.

Ja, ist super, und zwar deswegen, weil weniger Menschenfleisch soviel Platz einnimmt, das sowieso das Studium niemals abgeschlossen haette.

[DK II]

Ja, ist super, und zwar deswegen, weil weniger Menschenfleisch soviel Platz einnimmt, das sowieso das Studium niemals abgeschlossen haette.

Besides that, with so many people dropping out you also get rid of the 40 year old losers that still hang around in university and are total smartasses.

[Deicide]

Besides that, with so many people dropping out you also get rid of the 40 year old losers that still hang around in university and are total smartasses.

Tja...so ist das in DL. Wo ist Goethe, wenn wir ihn brauchen?

[Tapeworm]

With a few tweaks, that might been a good idea for the US school system.

With this 'No child left behind" BS... Public schools are basically dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Through 'social promotion', and other politically correct foolishness, kids that are voluntary retards graduate HS at the same level (on paper) as the exceptionally intelligent.

If this system were in the US, 95% of traditional US minorities (meaning mexicans and blacks) would be going to the Hauptschule. This would raise the ire of the radical liberal left rabble, and the cries of 'racism' would abound.

Although I don't believe that at 10 years old you know what someone is capable of, at some point you have to play the numbers as long as an exceptional student can earn their way into a higher level of schooling.

HS sucked.  It was full of disinterested dolts doing nothing but filling space, unenthusiastic teachers who were clearly upset about the direction their life had taken, and courses that were designed to let a monkey pass.  People told me that when I got to college it would be different, because everyone who was there would want to be there.  Turned out it was filled with the same numbskull kids, unhappy profs, and remedial courses as a "required part of the syllabus."   

Fuck the American educational system.  The whole thing is designed to let mediocre students purchase a degree, even though they'd rather be somewhere else if it wan't for the keggers.  Anyone who is actually passionate about a particular field of study will succeed in spite of the university system, not because of it.  I couldn't take it.  I left.  Never got a degree.   

[Hereford]

The US as a whole is brainwashed by the whole 'equality' bull$hit that the liberals push. Everyone has to be considered equal nowdays, when to anyone with any common sense, it is obvious that everyone is NOT equal.

Why are people who can't even speak english taking up space in the school systems? We have large numbers of people in college who can't even put together a coherent sentence or execute basic educational functions.

I agree with Worm's take. I had numerous classes in college that were taught by the disinterested professors, and filled with borderline retards that learned nothing, but somehow always got out of the class with a 'C'.

What you have to realize is that American colleges are a business. They are there to make money and support as many union positions as they can.

[Tapeworm]

I knew I was in the wrong place when the university required everyone to take a first semester course on how to write an essay.  It HAD TO follow the form of a thesis paragraph, three supporting paragraphs (or maybe four if you're feeling froggy), and a concluding paragraph.  No deviation from this format was permitted.

The name of the course was "Creative Writing."     Can you believe no one else found any humor in that?

[Hereford]

What college was this, might I ask.... Cuz it sounds awefully familiar....

[Tapeworm]

University of Colorado, many moons ago.

I probably should have just pushed through.  Upper level courses and post grad work would have been a lot more engaging, I'm sure, but I just couldn't hack it. 

[BayGBM]

I knew I was in the wrong place when the university required everyone to take a first semester course on how to write an essay.  It HAD TO follow the form of a thesis paragraph, three supporting paragraphs (or maybe four if you're feeling froggy), and a concluding paragraph.  No deviation from this format was permitted.

The name of the course was "Creative Writing."     Can you believe no one else found any humor in that?

With so many schools to choose from, why did you go to the wrong place?  Why didn't you transfer to a more competitive institution and complete your degree elsewhere?  At one point, you obviously believed that getting a degree (in something--anything) would give you more options in life.  That you decided to "Fuck the American educational system" and "never got a degree" says more about you than the system.  

[Hereford]

University of Colorado, many moons ago.

I probably should have just pushed through.  Upper level courses and post grad work would have been a lot more engaging, I'm sure, but I just couldn't hack it. 

I KNEW IT!!!!! I did that BS too!

[Tapeworm]

With so many schools to choose from, why did you go to the wrong place?  Why didn't you transfer to a more competitive institution and complete your degree elsewhere?  At one point, you obviously believed that getting a degree (in something--anything) would give you more options in life.  That you decided to "Fuck the American educational system" and "never got a degree" says more about you than the system.  

Haha, you give me too much credit Bay.  I wasn't practical enough in my youth to give much thought to life's options.  I was just interested in philosophy, physics, and literature, and was looking to explore them in greater depth.  Never gave much thought about how to make a living, lol.

I was badly disappointed when I discovered that the university required a lot of the freshman year (and a good part of the sophomore year, not that I went that far) to be dedicated to required courses which didn't hold much interest for me and which covered subjects already beaten to death in HS.  Students from worse HSs didn't have any idea how to write an essay I guess, but I resented again encountering the LCD approach, which I had been assured (by parents and advisers) wouldn't be an issue at college.  In retrospect, I can understand the university's need to get everyone up to the same speed though.

Maybe I should have transfered, deferred, etc.  In the end, I was just disillusioned with the educational institution given my experience.  I admit that I might have had a different experience at another university, and that others have a much better time than I had, so my opinion holds true for me alone, but it's an opinion which I still have.  Namely, people who are passionate about their field of study are the exception rather than the rule in US universities, and that most who attend are simply going through the motions.

You're right in that my quitting after only a year definitely says a lot about how I was.  (I'm a little less naive 18 years later, or at least I hope so!)  I had a low threshold for disappointment and lacked the ability and confidence to just do my own thing in less than ideal surroundings.  I still hold education and knowledge in high regard, but I don't see the need for the institutionalization of education (undergrad education at any rate) and it will be interesting to see how the internet impacts institutions like high schools and universities, whether the definition of "educated" changes, and whether universities have to struggle to sell the notion that a degree counts for as much as it used to in a world where knowledge is increasingly available.

My ideal educational setting would be more of a round table symposium, which I guess is what I had hoped to find at university but didn't.  If I ever have a kid, he/she will probably attend a Montessori-type school, with more of an emphasis on self assessment and pursuing interests than on following a one size fits all syllabus.

[Tapeworm]

I KNEW IT!!!!! I did that BS too!

Boulder?  You poor bastard! 

[Hereford]

I transferred my happy a$$ on up to CSU.

The first two years in any college are almost always low-end, irrelavent courses. Consider this: how much does it cost to teach a 100 or 200 level course? Relatively little. Once you start getting into the upper division classes, it usually costs the college more in expertise, materials, etc to teach.

Many of my lower level classes were taught by Grad students and TA's.

The colleges know that about half of students will fail out or quit by the time they get to Junior-level status. This is why freshman classes have 400 people in them at most public colleges, and senior classes have 15-30 people in them typically.

Anyway, I learned 1000% more in grad school than I did in undergrad. In undergrad, professors seem to look at students as fodder. In grad school, they actually know your name! 

[BayGBM]

> it will be interesting to see how the internet impacts institutions like high schools and
> universities, whether the definition of "educated" changes


I don’t think we’ll see much of a change.  Certainly, there are exceptions but for the vast majority of people in the USA getting a degree is the ticket.  It’s not a guarantee of anything, but it is a ticket and it is very hard to get on a career fast track without that ticket.

The changes you’re suggesting have already happened.  That is to say, the internet has given rise to alternatives to traditional education such as Kaplan University, the Univ. of Phoenix, and other online degree programs, but I don’t hold those programs or their graduates in high regard and neither do most employers.  Those programs are very obvious about the fact that their primary goal is to make money; they are for-profit institutions with shareholders, etc.  Most of their money comes in the form federal financial aid.  In fact, 3 former employees recently accused Kaplan U. of bilking the federal government out of more than 4 billion dollars and they are suing Kaplan as whistleblowers; you can look up/read about this story on the internet. http://chronicle.com/news/article/4961/another-whistlesblower-sounds-charges-against-kaplans-higher-education-division

The quick rise of these for profit online colleges begs the question of who are their students and why aren’t they enrolled in a traditional university?  Many are housewives; many are people who dropped out of school years ago but now realize they need a degree to get ahead, and they are willing to settle for any degree from anywhere.  When these people are interviewed they often talk about not having time for a traditional degree program.  I don’t buy that for a minute.  Most real universities and community colleges offer day, evening, and continuing education courses for working adults.  Some of these courses are even offered on the weekends.

Often what these students really mean is that they want a degree without doing the real work and sacrifice involved in getting one.  Their idea of hard intellectual work is clicking a mouse.  The reality is there are a lot of people out there who want to enjoy the benefits of hard work without doing the hard work.

Online universities love these people because once they get them in the door, the school gets the money via student loans and the fed. government.  Whether the student actually graduates almost doesn’t matter.  The result is a huge push to bring in students…. No matter how poorly prepared or poorly motivated they are.  As long as they are a warm body with a social security # they can qualify for the aid money. 

The higher-education division of Kaplan Inc. reported revenues of more than $593-million for the first six months of 2008 — an increase of 21 percent over the same period in 2007. 

[Hereford]

Corinthian colleges is Baaaaaaaaad about that too. Warm bodies = federal aid.  Degrees are just about useless as far as learned abilities go...

[Tapeworm]

Although I've never looked into one, I agree with your take on online universities Bay.  Everyone likes the color green, so it's no surprise.

I was speaking more to the accessability of information today, compared to 50, 100, or 2000 years ago.  Back then, the only way to gain access to knowledge was to make a pilgrimage to an information hub of some sort and study there for a few years.  That's no longer necessary, so I'm curious if diplomas will begin to devalue, where ever they may have come from, or if those without them won't necessarily be viewed as uninformed (although I am  .


I know you guys are going to hold my feet to the fire for this, but I'm going to stand firm: The educational system in the US is fucked!  Fucked goddammit!  Fucked! 

My main recollection of school, whether high school or university, is of having questions that never got answered.  There were a LOT of times that I got told, "Don't concern yourself with that.  It won't be on the test."  I'm not talking about a question I asked on other students' time.  These were questions asked after class.  Eventually, just like with university, I gave up on operating within bounds.  I used to cut class in high school to go to the library.   

An educational system needs to encourage children's' curiosity and have the means to answer it.  Teachers should be some of the most highly respected, best informed people in the country, and their pay should reflect it.  Attract these people with outrageous salaries: 3, 4, $500,000 a year, whatever it takes to get the best and brightest seeing to the education of the next generation.  What does a first year teacher get paid these days?  $50,000 or something?  What kind of guy is going to wind up taking the job?  The guy that no one else wanted to hire.  This is not the man for the job!


Kids are naturally curious anyway.  All you have to do is not shut 'em down.  Have enough educators around so questions can be answered and lines of inquiry pursued before a kid's fickle curiosity drifts to another topic.  If 10:1 students: teachers won't do it, make it 5:1, or 3:1.  Staff that joint!  Kids that don't show any aptitude or interest can go to garbage man school, but I bet most people would be astounded by how few kids are destined to be garbage men or ditch diggers if their country's educational system afforded them every opportunity of intellectual exploration.

Next thing you know, you'll have a country full of well informed and mentally active people instead of... well, what America has today.  It's not a complete disaster over there or anything I guess, but can you imagine the difference you'd see in a generation or two with some super aggressive spending on education?  It would cost a lot, but the economy would be healthier for it with the most highly educated population in the world.  Don't ask me where the money should come from, I have no idea, but ffs they should find more than they do.  They won't, but they should.

I transferred my happy a$$ on up to CSU.

Ahhh, Fort Collins.  The bong capital of Colorado.   

[BayGBM]

The value of a legitimate college degree is not going down; it is going up.  As access to information becomes more widespread the ability to sift real knowledge from the vast pools of information available is going to become even more important.  Having access to generic information (or misinformation) is not the same as having knowledge or having the knowledge you’ve acquired certified by an authoritative body like a university.

If you need medical care would you feel comfortable going to a “doctor” who was self taught on the internet or someone with a degree from an accredited medical school?

Attending a university is not simply about accumulating credits and taking prescribed examinations.  While in a degree program young people gain a social education; they learn about other people, about themselves, about how they interact with other people.  If they are lucky, they gain a respect for diversity in all its forms.  For a surprising number of kids, college is their first exposure to real diversity: living with people (in a dorm) who grew up in a another state, people who don’t look like them, think like them, etc.  People who see the world from a totally different perspective.  In this regard living on campus provides a benefit that commuter students do not experience to the same degree.  If you haven’t experienced this kind of growth you’ll never know what you missed and you can’t get it from hearing about or reading about it.

It is like the difference between looking at pictures of a foreign country and living in a foreign country and learning the language/customs.  The person who does the former is simply not as developed as the latter.

I can’t defend K-12, but for all its faults, the system of higher education in the United States is the envy of the entire world.  The rich and royalty from around the world jockey to send their kids to American universities, and pay for the privilege of doing so, because they know it is the best.  Regrettably, you didn’t stay in school long enough to realize why that is. 

[Deicide]

Haha, you give me too much credit Bay.  I wasn't practical enough in my youth to give much thought to life's options.  I was just interested in philosophy, physics, and literature, and was looking to explore them in greater depth.  Never gave much thought about how to make a living, lol.

I was badly disappointed when I discovered that the university required a lot of the freshman year (and a good part of the sophomore year, not that I went that far) to be dedicated to required courses which didn't hold much interest for me and which covered subjects already beaten to death in HS.  Students from worse HSs didn't have any idea how to write an essay I guess, but I resented again encountering the LCD approach, which I had been assured (by parents and advisers) wouldn't be an issue at college.  In retrospect, I can understand the university's need to get everyone up to the same speed though.

Maybe I should have transfered, deferred, etc.  In the end, I was just disillusioned with the educational institution given my experience.  I admit that I might have had a different experience at another university, and that others have a much better time than I had, so my opinion holds true for me alone, but it's an opinion which I still have.  Namely, people who are passionate about their field of study are the exception rather than the rule in US universities, and that most who attend are simply going through the motions.

You're right in that my quitting after only a year definitely says a lot about how I was.  (I'm a little less naive 18 years later, or at least I hope so!)  I had a low threshold for disappointment and lacked the ability and confidence to just do my own thing in less than ideal surroundings.  I still hold education and knowledge in high regard, but I don't see the need for the institutionalization of education (undergrad education at any rate) and it will be interesting to see how the internet impacts institutions like high schools and universities, whether the definition of "educated" changes, and whether universities have to struggle to sell the notion that a degree counts for as much as it used to in a world where knowledge is increasingly available.

My ideal educational setting would be more of a round table symposium, which I guess is what I had hoped to find at university but didn't.  If I ever have a kid, he/she will probably attend a Montessori-type school, with more of an emphasis on self assessment and pursuing interests than on following a one size fits all syllabus.

Some unis in the UK would have suited your desires better than the American system.

[Tapeworm]

The value of a legitimate college degree is not going down; it is going up.  As access to information becomes more widespread the ability to sift real knowledge from the vast pools of information available is going to become even more important.  Having access to generic information (or misinformation) is not the same as having knowledge or having the knowledge you’ve acquired certified by an authoritative body like a university.

If you need medical care would you feel comfortable going to a “doctor” who was self taught on the internet or someone with a degree from an accredited medical school?

Attending a university is not simply about accumulating credits and taking prescribed examinations.  While in a degree program young people gain a social education; they learn about other people, about themselves, about how they interact with other people.  If they are lucky, they gain a respect for diversity in all its forms.  For a surprising number of kids, college is their first exposure to real diversity: living with people (in a dorm) who grew up in a another state, people who don’t look like them, think like them, etc.  People who see the world from a totally different perspective.  In this regard living on campus provides a benefit that commuter students do not experience to the same degree.  If you haven’t experienced this kind of growth you’ll never know what you missed and you can’t get it from hearing about or reading about it.

It is like the difference between looking at pictures of a foreign country and living in a foreign country and learning the language/customs.  The person who does the former is simply not as developed as the latter.

I can’t defend K-12, but for all its faults, the system of higher education in the United States is the envy of the entire world.  The rich and royalty from around the world jockey to send their kids to American universities, and pay for the privilege of doing so, because they know it is the best.  Regrettably, you didn’t stay in school long enough to realize why that is. 

I'll agree that most fields would require university attendance at a post grad level, such as med school, but I still think the free access to information which the world is experiencing for the first time could start to empty the undergrad lecture halls in another decade or two.  I anticipate that "education" will become somewhat redefined to be truer to its etymology, and be more of a drawing forth of knowledge from a common well, than today's notion of the process which places a greater emphasis on hoop jumping than on acquiring knowledge.  I've met a few university educated people who seemed well informed and happy in their field, but the bulk of them seem to primarily be expert hoop jumpers with a well developed ability to address themselves to admittedly pointless tasks with a lacklustre it's-just-gotta-be-done attitude.  However, that might simply be the difference between someone who majored in something they enjoy rather than someone who majored in "communications" or "business" (both pronounced softly with a barely perceptable shrug while looking down and shuffling the feet).

There's sure to be a good amount of roadkill on the information superhighway (...to steal a line from Greg Brown).  Guys like Daddywaddy are going to buy anything an e-huckster is selling, because they lack any foundation of knowledge and, as you pointed out, analytical ability.  These are such basic needs that they should be addressed by elementary and high school programs, and not be the privilege of the college educated.  Sadly, that's not the case these days, and it's to the country's detriment, but I have faith that people are surprisingly savvy and will clue in pretty quick (meaning a decade or two) as obstacles to the pursuit of knowledge are removed, with or without the help of government schooling.


Encountering a broader social reality than what a kid had previously known is a good thing, but more or less inevitable even without going to college.  I guess there are some guys who stay in the same town they grew up in, but that Mayberry shit is so far removed from my life I find it hard to believe anyone actually does it.  I wound up knocking around Colorado for a few years, living in Belgium for couple years, then London for another few, and have been in Australia since '99.  It's been a wild, wild ride man.  God only knows what's next! 

At any rate, I'd never tell a kid that university sucks or that he should just educate himself.  I always say it's a good idea, if asked.  It just wasn't a good fit for me.  I regret not having found some fellow nerds to hang with, but staying on wouldn't have been the right move for me.

Some unis in the UK would have suited your desires better than the American system.

I met a guy studying particle physics at Cambridge while working as a cook in Belguim (no, he wasn't in a wheelchair).  Helpful and patient as hell in discussion.  I remember that I was struck by how accessable conversation was with him, although I was way, way, way out of my depth.

Either that or he was gay.    Nah.  Just a friendly guy who loved his field.