Author Topic: Organic Foods  (Read 7006 times)

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2008, 02:49:03 PM »
I dunno about fruits and veggies, but meat and poultry = different story. I was in Canada recently, and to me the chicken and beef there just tasted better. Even the chicken wings at KFC were smaller and had much more flavor LOL

Yeah, I know what you mean.  I bought some fried chicken from this farm/restaurant where they raise/butcher their own chickens.  It had such good quality taste.  Unbelievable.

S

The True Adonis

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2008, 02:57:48 PM »
 So you're basically saying(overview of all your posts) that there was a possible taste difference in the past but now that standards have gotten better there isn't one any longer.  Doesn't that sound more like a personal opinion to you rather than a fact?  If we know that at least 3 people in this thread alone have said that there is a taste difference, and I know that a great deal of raw foodists, vegetarians, and holistic eaters I have spoken with have said there is a taste difference then we can only assume that they are:
  A. Lying
  B. Right in regards to themselves and their ability to taste
  C. All experiencing the placebo effect on the mass scale

  A&C seem pretty improbable to me given that we are all pretty aware that the organic label has it's pitfalls and we notice them as well.  And like I said, it's not all in taste-the visual difference between a healthy egg yolk and a weak one is night and day.
Over 90 percent of Americans are deluded on a mass scale just by the simple fact of believing in an imaginary god.

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2008, 02:59:28 PM »
 So you're basically saying(overview of all your posts) that there was a possible taste difference in the past but now that standards have gotten better there isn't one any longer.  Doesn't that sound more like a personal opinion to you rather than a fact?  If we know that at least 3 people in this thread alone have said that there is a taste difference, and I know that a great deal of raw foodists, vegetarians, and holistic eaters I have spoken with have said there is a taste difference then we can only assume that they are:
  A. Lying
  B. Right in regards to themselves and their ability to taste
  C. All experiencing the placebo effect on the mass scale

  A&C seem pretty improbable to me given that we are all pretty aware that the organic label has it's pitfalls and we notice them as well.  And like I said, it's not all in taste-the visual difference between a healthy egg yolk and a weak one is night and day.

RPF: Yeah, I pretty much agree.  So don't say "you guys" lol  

"You Guys" is a general term. Not specific to anyone in particular!   ;)

Some things I would like 'you guys' to consider:

1. Organic and/or Natural farming is not practical in terms of feeding the seething masses on this planet. Organic farming is a 'niche market'. If you like it, great. If your whole crew likes it and you can afford it, great! It will not, however, work on the grand scale.

2. 99% of producers in the Ag industry that are producing organic crops do it because it PAYS a lot more. Why does it pay a lot more? Because you cannot get nearly the yields from this type of farming. Your crops get ravaged by pests and other plants that out-compete what you are trying to grow.
'
3. People who farm 'organic' and 'natural' need to differentiate their product somehow to justify getting the higher prices. I believe that a lot of this 'The-Sky-Is-Falling' and 'there are poisons in our food!!!' is propagated by what can be considered to be special interests in the industry.

Back to the 'taste' argument....

You are saying that organic=better taste. I follow Adonis' argument that if you were to take two meat animals, say pigs, and feed one organic feed, and the other conventional, you COULD NOT tell the difference.

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2008, 03:03:43 PM »
RPF: Yeah, I pretty much agree.  So don't say "you guys" lol  

"You Guys" is a general term. Not specific to anyone in particular!   ;)

Some things I would like 'you guys' to consider:

1. Organic and/or Natural farming is not practical in terms of feeding the seething masses on this planet. Organic farming is a 'niche market'. If you like it, great. If your whole crew likes it and you can afford it, great! It will not, however, work on the grand scale.

2. 99% of producers in the Ag industry that are producing organic crops do it because it PAYS a lot more. Why does it pay a lot more? Because you cannot get nearly the yields from this type of farming. Your crops get ravaged by pests and other plants that out-compete what you are trying to grow.
'
3. People who farm 'organic' and 'natural' need to differentiate their product somehow to justify getting the higher prices. I believe that a lot of this 'The-Sky-Is-Falling' and 'there are poisons in our food!!!' is propagated by what can be considered to be special interests in the industry.

Back to the 'taste' argument....

You are saying that organic=better taste. I follow Adonis' argument that if you were to take two meat animals, say pigs, and feed one organic feed, and the other conventional, you COULD NOT tell the difference.

Kobe is the best tasting meat and its grain fed.  I`d like to see "these guys" pretend that Kobe beef doesn`t taste amazing because its fed grains.

Hereford

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2008, 03:04:47 PM »
Kobe is the best tasting meat and its grain fed.  I`d like to see "these guys" pretend that Kobe beef doesn`t taste amazing because its fed grains.

Kobe beef is absolutly amazing. I had a Kobe steak one time. Incredible.

$$$$$$$

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2008, 03:06:24 PM »
The animals genetics are going to play the largest role in determining taste.  This is why there are so many different breeds and breeders of livestock each yielding a different taste.

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2008, 03:06:38 PM »
Do you guys ever eat Buffalo?

Excellent stuff...
S

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2008, 03:07:21 PM »
alright well we're where we started again-I'm saying I can, several other people are saying they can and you're saying we can't.  I personally think telling another person what they experiencing is kind of strange idea, but maybe that's just me.  I don't eat pork, but if we did it with beef, I'm pretty sure I could and you've basically more or less said the same thing but you are saying that the 'taste line' that has been drawn is further back than I think it is-I also think this 'taste line' is very personal.

  TA: The comment above about theism doesn't have any place in this argument-funny considering you ribbing me for things not having any place in this argument instead of actually adressing the issue.  The beliefs you are talking about are about as far removed from food as you can get, especially in intensity of emotion which is essentially what the placebo effect is based on.

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2008, 03:08:36 PM »
Do you guys ever eat Buffalo?

Excellent stuff...
Buffalo is great!

Ted Turner has been very instrumental in re-introducing it and at a good price.  My favorite around here is Ostrich.  It is even leaner than Chicken and tastes like the best red meat steak.

If the mass public ever get wind of it, it would really catch on.

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2008, 03:11:16 PM »
The animals genetics are going to play the largest role in determining taste.  This is why there are so many different breeds and breeders of livestock each yielding a different taste.

  Well now wait a second, the 'largest?'  So you are insinuating that something else could have an effect on taste.  It's already been agreed upon that genetics play the biggest role in taste.  This, for the 3rd time I believe, has never been the argument. The argument as been whether or not adding to that original item will chance the original taste.  If the substance added to it has a strong taste, and it is within that particular persons ability to taste, then it will be tasted along with the original taste.  And once again, I'm not talking about taste differences, per se-I'm talking about a strictly foreign, very easily discernable bitter, metallic, or other taste.

  I've had plenty of buffalo-strictly grass fed buffalo.

Hereford

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2008, 03:12:13 PM »
alright well we're where we started again-I'm saying I can, several other people are saying they can and you're saying we can't.  I personally think telling another person what they experiencing is kind of strange idea, but maybe that's just me.  I don't eat pork, but if we did it with beef, I'm pretty sure I could and you've basically more or less said the same thing but you are saying that the 'taste line' that has been drawn is further back than I think it is-I also think this 'taste line' is very personal.

  TA: The comment above about theism doesn't have any place in this argument-funny considering you ribbing me for things not having any place in this argument instead of actually adressing the issue.  The beliefs you are talking about are about as far removed from food as you can get, especially in intensity of emotion which is essentially what the placebo effect is based on.

SV you need to settle down. People can psych themselves into believing anything. If you want to believe that a dog turd tasted better than an ice cream cone.... Then you are going to truely believe it with all your heart and nothing me, TA or anyone else says is going to change your mind.

I am saying that, from a scientific standpoint, you cannot distinguish taste based ONLY on the fact of a foodstuff being conventional or it being organic.


Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2008, 03:12:27 PM »
My favorite around here is Ostrich.

Yep

When it comes to food I think you have great taste Adonis
S

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2008, 03:13:49 PM »
alright well we're where we started again-I'm saying I can, several other people are saying they can and you're saying we can't.  I personally think telling another person what they experiencing is kind of strange idea, but maybe that's just me.  I don't eat pork, but if we did it with beef, I'm pretty sure I could and you've basically more or less said the same thing but you are saying that the 'taste line' that has been drawn is further back than I think it is-I also think this 'taste line' is very personal.

  TA: The comment above about theism doesn't have any place in this argument-funny considering you ribbing me for things not having any place in this argument instead of actually adressing the issue.  The beliefs you are talking about are about as far removed from food as you can get, especially in intensity of emotion which is essentially what the placebo effect is based on.
Delusion and Placebo go hand in hand.

I am telling you that humans DO NOT have the capacity to detect nano-particulates through taste or smell and nano-particulates are what we are discussing.  Dogs can tell different isotopes through smell which is pretty amazing.  Humans are a joke in the olfactory sense.

I would also argue that your sense of taste is poor because you have not established enough neural connections because you not only don`t cook your food, you don`t eat a wide variety of food items.  You cannot tell me what an Oreo Pie Tastes like.  You have never built the Neuron connection to be able to do so.

Taste is based on memory.  If you fail to taste these things, you will never create a memory bank of tastes.  I charge that your sense of taste is horrible.

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2008, 03:14:47 PM »
SV you need to settle down. People can psych themselves into believing anything. If you want to believe that a dog turd tasted better than an ice cream cone.... Then you are going to truely believe it with all your heart and nothing me, TA or anyone else says is going to change your mind.

I am saying that, from a scientific standpoint, you cannot distinguish taste based ONLY on the fact of a foodstuff being conventional or it being organic.


ROFLMAO if you read this board long enough, you will find people convincing themselves that a dry old chicken breast tastes better than a Double Whopper With Cheese and Large Fries. hahhahahahah

The True Adonis

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2008, 03:17:37 PM »
Yep

When it comes to food I think you have great taste Adonis
To me, food is above all else.  Nothing in life gives me greater pleasure.  Reading cookbooks is the most addictive thing.  The thing that really gets me though is that there are not enough days in a humans life to be able to make all the things I want to make and eat.  :-\

Swedish Viking

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2008, 03:21:10 PM »
Delusion and Placebo go hand in hand.

I am telling you that humans DO NOT have the capacity to detect nano-particulates through taste or smell and nano-particulates are what we are discussing.  Dogs can tell different isotopes through smell which is pretty amazing.  Humans are a joke in the olfactory sense.

I would also argue that your sense of taste is poor because you have not established enough neural connections because you not only don`t cook your food, you don`t eat a wide variety of food items.  You cannot tell me what an Oreo Pie Tastes like.  You have never built the Neuron connection to be able to do so.

Taste is based on memory.  If you fail to taste these things, you will never create a memory bank of tastes.  I charge that your sense of taste is horrible.

    I've eaten raw for 5 years, not my whole life.  I've lost my taste for cooked food and many ingredient concoctions.  I've gotten a much better taste for the things I do eat-weird that you say my whole sense of taste is horrible in a blanket statement like that when just 2 sentences earlier you say that taste is something that is developed over time...well I've been eating certain things at a much greater frequency than I ever did before and more than others do-wouldn't you then assume that my sense of taste in regards to those is better than it was before and probably better than most others'?  

    What we're talking about is highly personal and has a lot to do with experience.  If 3 violins were playing in front of me right now, I might be able to tell if one of them was out of tune.  Possibly.  If a 65 person orchestra was playing in front of a great conductor, he/she can often tell if one instrument is just a half a step high or low-that's borderline almost absurdly sensitive to the average person's ear.  We know it happens with other senses, you're admitting that it happens with taste too because you are saying that it can be developed and then broken down...why shouldn't what we are saying be true? 

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2008, 03:27:54 PM »
  I've eaten raw for 5 years, not my whole life.  I've lost my taste for cooked food and many ingredient concoctions.  I've gotten a much better taste for the things I do eat.  What we're talking about is highly personal and has a lot to do with experience.  If 3 violins were playing in front of me right now, I might be able to tell if one of them was out of tune.  Possibly.  If a 65 person orchestra was playing in front of a great conductor, he/she can often tell if one instrument is just a half a step high or low.  We know it happens with other senses, you're admitting that it happens with taste too because you are saying that it can be developed and then broken down...why shouldn't what we are saying be true?
The more foods you eat, the more ways you prepare them, the bigger your taste bank grows and the ability to identify them becomes sharper.  You are limiting your taste and your taste neural connections.  True, you may have some taste memory but it fades if not renewed from time to time. Meaning the longer you limit and the less you eat a food, the more you will forget what it tastes like and the less you may desire it or even think of it.  At this point the delusion may creep in and you may begin to convince yourself that food X never tasted good in the first place.

You are trying to state that you have the ability to identify flavorless nano-particulates of pesticides in food when it is humanly impossible to detect such things.  Our olfactory is not powerful enough nor has it ever been or will be.

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2008, 03:29:27 PM »
   I've eaten raw for 5 years, not my whole life.  I've lost my taste for cooked food and many ingredient concoctions.  I've gotten a much better taste for the things I do eat-weird that you say my whole sense of taste is horrible in a blanket statement like that when just 2 sentences earlier you say that taste is something that is developed over time...well I've been eating certain things at a much greater frequency than I ever did before and more than others do-wouldn't you then assume that my sense of taste in regards to those is better than it was before and probably better than most others'?  

    What we're talking about is highly personal and has a lot to do with experience.  If 3 violins were playing in front of me right now, I might be able to tell if one of them was out of tune.  Possibly.  If a 65 person orchestra was playing in front of a great conductor, he/she can often tell if one instrument is just a half a step high or low-that's borderline almost absurdly sensitive to the average person's ear.  We know it happens with other senses, you're admitting that it happens with taste too because you are saying that it can be developed and then broken down...why shouldn't what we are saying be true? 
The ears work through different neural pathways than taste or smell.  apples and Oranges my friend. :)

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2008, 03:32:21 PM »
I made the orchestra comment to make a point in regards to development-which we all agree is possible in all senses.  Your first post re-states everything I just said.  I have lost my taste for many ingredient concoctions and cooked food. I have gained a greater sense of taste for the foods we are arguing over-we're not talking about oreo pies or pizzas or pasta, we're talking about fruits, meats, vegetables alone. 

  And since we want everything empirally proven and double blind tested in this thread, I would love to see your following comment backed up by research:
"The more foods you eat, the more ways you prepare them, the bigger your taste bank grows and the ability to identify them becomes sharper."

  I would say the truth is the opposite:the more foods you eat, the more muddled you taste for those foods in isolation gets-in fact, I think this is the very reason most people don't have the sense of taste for certain items that others such as myself-who only eat those items and in isolation-might have.
 
  I'm going to bed, good night.

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2008, 03:36:24 PM »
I made the orchestra comment to make a point in regards to development-which we all agree is possible in all senses.  Your first post re-states everything I just said.  I have lost my taste for many ingredient concoctions and cooked food. I have gained a greater sense of taste for the foods we are arguing over-we're not talking about oreo pies or pizzas or pasta, we're talking about fruits, meats, vegetables alone. 

  And since we want everything empirally proven and double blind tested in this thread, I would love to see your following comment backed up by research:
"The more foods you eat, the more ways you prepare them, the bigger your taste bank grows and the ability to identify them becomes sharper."

  I would say the truth is the opposite:the more foods you eat, the more muddled you taste for those foods in isolation gets-in fact, I think this is the very reason most people don't have the sense of taste for certain items that others such as myself-who only eat those items and in isolation-might have.
 
  I'm going to bed, good night.
Read it if you like.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T0P-4G24XJ5-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6cf512aaf1bdafc7d332c8a7d700cbb1

Taste, olfactory, and food texture processing in the brain, and the control of food intake

Edmund T. RollsCorresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author, E-mail The Corresponding Author
University of Oxford, Department of Experimental Psychology, South Parks Road, Oxford OX1 3UD, England, UK

Available online 28 April 2005.

Purchase the full-text article



References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

Abstract

Complementary neurophysiological recordings in macaques and functional neuroimaging in humans show that the primary taste cortex in the rostral insula and adjoining frontal operculum provides separate and combined representations of the taste, temperature, and texture (including viscosity and fat texture) of food in the mouth independently of hunger and thus of reward value and pleasantness. One synapse on, in the orbitofrontal cortex, these sensory inputs are for some neurons combined by learning with olfactory and visual inputs. Different neurons respond to different combinations, providing a rich representation of the sensory properties of food. In the orbitofrontal cortex, feeding to satiety with one food decreases the responses of these neurons to that food, but not to other foods, showing that sensory-specific satiety is computed in the primate (including human) orbitofrontal cortex. Consistently, activation of parts of the human orbitofrontal cortex correlates with subjective ratings of the pleasantness of the taste and smell of food. Cognitive factors, such as a word label presented with an odour, influence the pleasantness of the odour, and the activation produced by the odour in the orbitofrontal cortex. These findings provide a basis for understanding how what is in the mouth is represented by independent information channels in the brain; how the information from these channels is combined; and how and where the reward and subjective affective value of food is represented and is influenced by satiety signals. Activation of these representations in the orbitofrontal cortex may provide the goal for eating, and understanding them helps to provide a basis for understanding appetite and its disorders.

Keywords: Sensory-specific satiety; Fat; Food texture; Taste; Olfaction; Temperature
Article Outline

1. Introduction

1.1. Taste processing in the primate brain

1.1.1. Pathways
1.1.2. The secondary taste cortex
1.1.3. Five prototypical tastes, including umami
1.1.4. The pleasantness of the taste of food
1.1.5. Sensory-specific satiety

1.2. The representation of flavour: convergence of olfactory and taste inputs
1.3. The rules underlying the formation of olfactory representations in the primate cortex
1.4. The representation of the pleasantness of odour in the brain: olfactory and visual sensory-specific satiety, their representation in the primate orbitofrontal cortex, and the role of sensory-specific satiety in appetite
1.5. The responses of orbitofrontal cortex taste and olfactory neurons to the sight, texture, and temperature of food
1.6. The mouth feel of fat
1.7. Imaging studies in humans

1.7.1. Taste
1.7.2. Odour
1.7.3. Olfactory–taste convergence to represent flavour
1.7.4. Oral viscosity and fat texture

1.8. Cognitive effects on representations of food
1.9. Emotion

2. Conclusions
Acknowledgements
References



Thumbnail image

Fig. 1. Schematic diagram of the taste and olfactory pathways in primates showing how they converge with each other and with visual pathways. The gate functions shown refer to the finding that the responses of taste neurons in the orbitofrontal cortex and the lateral hypothalamus are modulated by hunger. VPMpc—ventralposteromedial thalamic nucleus; V1, V2, V4—visual cortical areas.

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slayer

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2008, 03:47:45 PM »
If you cant taste the difference between the two then it is either because you don not have strong taste buds or you have not been eating organic long enuff to taste the fine but noticable difference.

Nothing like good organice produce, you would have to be an idiot to think otherwise!

The True Adonis

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2008, 03:51:40 PM »
If you cant taste the difference between the two then it is either because you don not have strong taste buds or you have not been eating organic long enuff to taste the fine but noticable difference.

Nothing like good organice produce, you would have to be an idiot to think otherwise!
Again,

Humans do not have the ability to detect nano-particulates.

slayer

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2008, 03:55:30 PM »
Again,

Humans do not have the ability to detect nano-particulates.
sorry , but I can taste the difference.  Try eating organic for 10 yrs , then come back to this thread!

The chemicals alone present a taste.

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2008, 03:56:46 PM »
Is it possible that non organic chemicals used on Crops could promote different levels of certain "tasty" and "non tasty" materials that make up a fruit or vegetable?   ??? 

Something like promoting the growth of pulp in an Orange but not its "juice" giving the Orange less flavor?
S

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Re: Organic Foods
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2008, 04:09:43 PM »
Is it possible that non organic chemicals used on Crops could promote different levels of certain "tasty" and "non tasty" materials that make up a fruit or vegetable?   ??? 

Something like promoting the growth of pulp in an Orange but not its "juice" giving the Orange less flavor?
Yeep.  A lot of the times the non-organic will taste sweeter or more vibrant because of the Genetically modified nature of the seed.  This means that the seed has been bred to agree with the soil and pesticide used which makes taste even easier to manipulate further as survivability is not an issue and can be placed more so on the back burner.

The organic variety can be more difficult to grow and taste is not as easy to breed for as survivability becomes first priority.  There is one good side to this however in that a plants natural resistance, its antioxidant capacity, may go up as its natural defenses are selected. 

However, the non-organic can be easily manipulated to yield the same antioxidant capacity.

Basically, the upside to sustainable or organic is purely environmental. The soil is left in better condition as is the surrounding flora and fauna.  It also helps local economies and cuts down on transportation/fuel usage and carbon output.  That is your real benefit.