Why do (or did) "Naturals" take PROHormones but not steroids?

[The True Adonis]

It is a question that boggles the mind.  How do they view one as being acceptable and the other not?

What was the criteria in their choice?

[The True Adonis]

Also, do the naturals who took the PROHormones consider themselves still Lifetime Natural and did they consider PROHormones Natural at the time when they were using them?

[Tapeworm]

Fear of needles?

[The True Adonis]

If it was because of a legal standpoint or  "my organization allowed it at the time" and not a "what is in the chemical" standpoint, then it would seem than by that criteria they would not be considered natural at all anymore as PROhormones now share the same designation as conventional anabolic steroids.  

If the "Natruals" use this criteria, anyone who took steroids before 1990 would be considered just as natural.

[The True Adonis]

If it was because of a legal standpoint or  "my organization allowed it at the time" and not a "what is in the chemical" standpoint, then it would seem than by that criteria they would not be considered natural at all anymore as PROhormones now share the same designation as conventional anabolic steroids.  

By this criteria, anyone who took steroids before 1990 would be considered just as natural.

Do these "Naturals" who used that criteria in deciding to take Pro-Hormones also think Arnold Schwarzenegger was Natural because steroids were legal and allowed in their organization at the time?

[QuakerOats]

maybe they like all side effects and no gains.

[Tapeworm]

Sorry for interrupting.  I didn't realize this was a monologue.

I still say the stigma of injecting leads people to believe they're not really a "drug user" if they just take a pill instead.

[The True Adonis]

Another Pondering:

Bodybuilder A injects or swallows enough conventional steroids to elicit X response in Testosterone levels.

Bodybuilder B Swallows enough PROHormones to elicit the same X response in Testosterone Levels.


Who is more natural?

[boonstack]

Sorry for interrupting.  I didn't realize this was a monologue.

I still say the stigma of injecting leads people to believe they're not really a "drug user" if they just take a pill instead.

Its the "end" result that is achieved through whatever route of administration. Injecting coke gets u high, so does snorting it.

But, yes the uneducated part of society thinks "its worse" when the word 'needle' comes into play.

[boonstack]

Another Pondering:

Bodybuilder A injects or swallows enough conventional steroids to elicit X response in Testosterone levels.

Bodybuilder B Swallows enough PROHormones to elicit the same X response in Testosterone Levels.


Who is more natural?

What would the criteria be to pass judgement on who is "more natural"?

Guy A takes 5 x pills (aas,etc)

Guy B takes 20 x pills (pro)

If the same levels of test or hormones are present, then how can one be "more or less" than the other?

[The True Adonis]

What would the criteria be to pass judgement on who is "more natural"?

Guy A takes 5 x pills (aas,etc)

Guy B takes 20 x pills (pro)

If the same levels of test or hormones are present, then how can one be "more or less" than the other?

EXACTLY!

Which is why I find these "Naturals" who use or used Prohoromones so hypocritically amusing!

[Krankenstein]

Adam...

Heres my perspective on the whole pro-hormone thing....

Back when AST came out with their androstenedione/diol I tried a bottle of the Ultimate Nutrition Nor-19.  Did I see anything from it?  Nope.  Do I think it was even potent?  Nope.  A lot of claims were made with it being 'just like steroids'.  Yadda Yadda.  Nothing is like steroids, except steroids.  Now, fast forward a few more years and you start to see companies literally pushing the envelope on what they can sell as an OTC prohormone and what is a drug.  Did that happen when I took them?  Nope.  Do I still think I am life-time drug free.  Yep.  If I did the whole M1-T (or whatever that was).....then nope. 

As far as the Arnold thing...well, you couldnt very well go to a GNC-type of store and get that stuff.  You had to go through dealer or a Walgreens type of store.  Definitely a drug....definitely not a natural no matter what the DEA has classified it.

This is, and will be, a debate that will be as ongoing and never ending as the whole LaCour debate.

[boonstack]

TA,


do you think there is a universal "plateau" a natural can hit as far as gaining muscle mass/lowest bodyfat levels? When incorporating steroids, it seems there are unlimited levels anyone can reach, which is why there is such a diversity in the "bb'ing" world.

As gh15 always said, its very rare to find the avg. 5'9 bb'er 200lbs 12% bodyfat that doesnt juice....

[The True Adonis]

Adam...

Heres my perspective on the whole pro-hormone thing....

Back when AST came out with their androstenedione/diol I tried a bottle of the Ultimate Nutrition Nor-19.  Did I see anything from it?  Nope.  Do I think it was even potent?  Nope.  A lot of claims were made with it being 'just like steroids'.  Yadda Yadda.  Nothing is like steroids, except steroids.  Now, fast forward a few more years and you start to see companies literally pushing the envelope on what they can sell as an OTC prohormone and what is a drug.  Did that happen when I took them?  Nope.  Do I still think I am life-time drug free.  Yep.  If I did the whole M1-T (or whatever that was).....then nope. 

As far as the Arnold thing...well, you couldnt very well go to a GNC-type of store and get that stuff.  You had to go through dealer or a Walgreens type of store.  Definitely a drug....definitely not a natural no matter what the DEA has classified it.

This is, and will be, a debate that will be as ongoing and never ending as the whole LaCour debate.

Interesting Perspective.

That tells me a few things in your decision of ProHormones when you used them.  You really had no idea of the potency or lack thereof, so it wasn`t a "whats in the chemical criteria", but rather a legal one as you took them blindly on faith in the hopes of working well.

Also, if you had gotten a very good result, you would not consider yourself lifetime natural anymore?  Is that your contention?  So there is also a potency factor involved.

So if a Steroid user got zero gains from steroids, he too would or could be considered Natural Post and Pre 1990?

[warchild]

No need for 10 posts on the subject TA, you have your side of it. Why did you use prohormones?

[thelamefalsehood]

I think because the person who buys these prohormones looks on them as not being a steroid because they bought it from the same place they bought their protein or glutamine or whatever. So in their mind, because they bought it legally, it seems not like buying steroids. When you think of buying steroids, you think of the guy with the duffle bag at the gym loaded with d-dol and deca, not GNC or whatever online supplement company. Basiclly I think they tell themselves they are not really steroids because the way they were acquired, so they will keep calling themselves "lifetime natural". I know plenty of a-holes like this.

[mwbbuilder]

Here's my take:

Pro-hormones were just another supplement sold in the stores making big promised when the came out in something like 1997-1998. It was no different in how they were marketed than ephedrine, creatine, NO2 or whatever.

It wasn't until Mark McGuire had it in his locker did any real questions come out about what this supplement supposedly did or does. Natural bodybuilders had no clue that they would be judged as doing something "wrong" in the minds of self-righteous people like TA 10 years later.

It's one thing for a natural to still be taking prohormones today AFTER the controversy and them being banned by organizations. It's another thing taking before all of this.

One knows they are doing something some would considered "wrong" and the other just ook the hot, new supplement on the market.

Steroids were ALWAYS banned from natural comp.

Adam, have you ever taken ephedra or ephedrine? Those are now banned form natural comps.

Would you consider someone who took ephedrine before it was banned to be a lying, cheating fraud claiming to be a natural TODAY?

[shiftedShapes]

Interesting Perspective.

That tells me a few things in your decision of ProHormones when you used them.  You really had no idea of the potency or lack thereof, so it wasn`t a "whats in the chemical criteria", but rather a legal one as you took them blindly on faith in the hopes of working well.

Also, if you had gotten a very good result, you would not consider yourself lifetime natural anymore?  Is that your contention?  So there is also a potency factor involved.

So if a Steroid user got zero gains from steroids, he too would or could be considered Natural Post and Pre 1990?

if someone bought fake UG steroids or some of Palumbo's "GH" they would still be natural.  So I agree with him about the BS prohormones.  It's not about intent in this case but rather about effect.

[The True Adonis]

No need for 10 posts on the subject TA, you have your side of it. Why did you use prohormones?

Never even once gave them a thought.

[The True Adonis]

Here's my take:

Pro-hormones were just another supplement sold in the stores making big promised when the came out in something like 1997-1998. It was no different in how they were marketed than ephedrine, creatine, NO2 or whatever.

It wasn't until Mark McGuire had it in his locker did any real questions come out about what this supplement supposedly did or does. Natural bodybuilders had no clue that they would be judged as doing something "wrong" in the minds of self-righteous people like TA 10 years later.

It's one thing for a natural to still be taking prohormones today AFTER the controversy and them being banned by organizations. It's another thing taking before all of this.

One knows they are doing something some would considered "wrong" and the other just ook the hot, new supplement on the market.

Steroids were ALWAYS banned from natural comp.

Adam, have you ever taken ephedra or ephedrine? Those are now banned form natural comps.

Would you consider someone who took ephedrine before it was banned to be a lying, cheating fraud claiming to be a natural TODAY?

So again,

Most view it as a legal conundrum rather than a Chemical one. That is your contention also.  So by that definition Arnold Schwarzenegger was natural when he competed because he, like everyone else, was just simply taking "the hot new legal and available supplement" at the time.

[The True Adonis]

From what I understand, people obtained steroids(the hot and legal supplement) in the 70s, 80s and earlier from their gyms and Barbell Clubs and what have you.

The same place where many gym-goers today buy their supplements.

So the method of obtainment is the same with steroids then and with supplments now, so this should not be a factor.  Correct?

[The True Adonis]

if someone bought fake UG steroids or some of Palumbo's "GH" they would still be natural.  So I agree with him about the BS prohormones.  It's not about intent in this case but rather about effect.

So if bodybuilder A takes a PROHormone at X dose and gets a 15 lb gain

and

Bodybuilder B takes a PROHormone at the same  X Dose and gets a 0 lb gain

Bodybuilder A is not natural but Bodybuilder B is?

[Red Hook]

isn't this like asking "if you commited an act before it became a crime are you guilty of that crime"? assuming ofcourse that the law is applied going forward only.

[Krankenstein]

Interesting Perspective.

That tells me a few things in your decision of ProHormones when you used them.  You really had no idea of the potency or lack thereof, so it wasn`t a "whats in the chemical criteria", but rather a legal one as you took them blindly on faith in the hopes of working well.

Also, if you had gotten a very good result, you would not consider yourself lifetime natural anymore?  Is that your contention?  So there is also a potency factor involved.

So if a Steroid user got zero gains from steroids, he too would or could be considered Natural Post and Pre 1990?

Well..I did know the potency.  I knew it SHOULD have given me a slight benefit.  Much like the tribulus...or any of the other test products back then.  If I would have gotten a great result I would have questioned if it truly was something that should be sold OTC. 

As far as steroid user seeing zero results.....it would never happen.  So, why bring that up.  If they put fake shit in their body...then obviously they would be able to claim drug free....and idiot....but still drug free.

As far as procuring the drugs in a gym back in the day....they got it from dealers in the gym.  You think they were on the wall and being sold as easily as protein powders?

Have to agree with what mwbb said though.  When you know you are doing something wrong....you lilve with the consequences.  I considered trying the prohormones again after a few years...found out they were banned...so I didnt.  Also had to stop ephedrine and products like that.

[mwbbuilder]

TA:

Are you making MORAL judgements or people or is this strictly PHYSICAL BODY OBSERVANCE judgements?

That will clear up everything.