War for Oil?

[Decker]

At the end of the day, you have opinion that this was a "war for oil," but you can't support that opinion with any credible facts.  I'm not criticizing your opinion because everyone is entitled to one, but there is no proof that I've seen from you or anyone else, that the war started for PSAs, to establish the FOGC, that we have gained one dime from the war, etc., etc. 

I have built a chain of circumstantial evidence--the unprovoked attack of Iraq based on lies re wmds, the continued occupation of Iraq when no wmds were found, the express provision in Iraqi Law granting final authority to foreign oil companies re the distribution/management of Iraqi oil, the bribes offered by Big Oil to the Iraqi gov. to support the new oil law, the secret pre-war energy meetings btn Cheney & Big Oil where maps of Iraq's oil fields were freely distributed--this all shows that the US invaded Iraq for some reason other than wmds b/c that was utter bullshit on its face (Iraq a threat to the US?  Puhlease), If we went into Iraq for WMD disarmament and found no WMDs, why is the US still occupying the country costing US taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollares?  Why didn't we just leave?  If the oil is not important, why were the oil fields the only thing protected right after the invasion while the rest of the country was plundered to hell?  Why were the Iraq oil fields discussed by Cheney & Big Oil in 2001?  The Iraqi invasion happened on March of 2003?  Why did Big Oil try to bribe Iraqi officials to support the oil law?  Why would Iraq want foreign oil companies having final say on the management of Iraq's oil fields?

Most murder suspects are convicted on this type of circumstantial evidence.

Can you see why someone might conclude that this entire Iraq disaster was based on the US's need to control Iraqi oil?

We have prewar collusion btn big oil and the nation's executive branch, we have an illegal invasion predicated on disarmament of a disarmed country, we have an ongoing occupation of Iraq even though it's been disarmed, we have big oil trying to corrupt the Iraqi legal process for its own benefit.

Of course we could wait for Bush/Cheney to make a national address stating they started the war for oil and they could illustrate this with charts and models but that is not how crooks work.

[Dos Equis]

I have built a chain of circumstantial evidence--the unprovoked attack of Iraq based on lies re wmds, the continued occupation of Iraq when no wmds were found, the express provision in Iraqi Law granting final authority to foreign oil companies re the distribution/management of Iraqi oil, the bribes offered by Big Oil to the Iraqi gov. to support the new oil law, the secret pre-war energy meetings btn Cheney & Big Oil where maps of Iraq's oil fields were freely distributed--this all shows that the US invaded Iraq for some reason other than wmds b/c that was utter bullshit on its face (Iraq a threat to the US?  Puhlease), If we went into Iraq for WMD disarmament and found no WMDs, why is the US still occupying the country costing US taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollares?  Why didn't we just leave?  If the oil is not important, why were the oil fields the only thing protected right after the invasion while the rest of the country was plundered to hell?  Why were the Iraq oil fields discussed by Cheney & Big Oil in 2001?  The Iraqi invasion happened on March of 2003?  Why did Big Oil try to bribe Iraqi officials to support the oil law?  Why would Iraq want foreign oil companies having final say on the management of Iraq's oil fields?

Most murder suspects are convicted on this type of circumstantial evidence.

Can you see why someone might conclude that this entire Iraq disaster was based on the US's need to control Iraqi oil?

We have prewar collusion btn big oil and the nation's executive branch, we have an illegal invasion predicated on disarmament of a disarmed country, we have an ongoing occupation of Iraq even though it's been disarmed, we have big oil trying to corrupt the Iraqi legal process for its own benefit.

Of course we could wait for Bush/Cheney to make a national address stating they started the war for oil and they could illustrate this with charts and models but that is not how crooks work.

I doubt murder suspects are convicted on puzzles like this that are missing so many pieces.  You asked about 20 questions, most of them rhetorical, but regarding the question of why we didn't just leave, I think the answer is obvious:  we decimated the country and removed its leadership.  We couldn't just "leave."  The fact that Iraq has a new government, we helped rebuild their country, we have not been compensated, we are in discussions to leave and will take no profits with us, really shows the answer to my second question (how did we profit) is:  we did not profit.  Unless you consider discussions about possible PSAs and the fact some U.S. oil companies might serve on an advisory panel with no decision making authority as profit.   

[Bindare_Dundat]

I doubt murder suspects are convicted on puzzles like this that are missing so many pieces.  You asked about 20 questions, most of them rhetorical, but regarding the question of why we didn't just leave, I think the answer is obvious:  we decimated the country and removed its leadership.  We couldn't just "leave."  The fact that Iraq has a new government, we helped rebuild their country, we have not been compensated, we are in discussions to leave and will take no profits with us, really shows the answer to my second question (how did we profit) is:  we did not profit.  Unless you consider discussions about possible PSAs and the fact some U.S. oil companies might serve on an advisory panel with no decision making authority as profit.   

When you say "we", who are you talking about?

[Hugo Chavez]

you guys still fighting bb on this?  You should know by now this is not a person who looks at the fact and says ok, he looks at them and says you don't have the facts.  It's a dead end

[Deicide]

The Lord of War...

[Decker]

I doubt murder suspects are convicted on puzzles like this that are missing so many pieces.  You asked about 20 questions, most of them rhetorical, but regarding the question of why we didn't just leave, I think the answer is obvious:  we decimated the country and removed its leadership.  We couldn't just "leave."  The fact that Iraq has a new government, we helped rebuild their country, we have not been compensated, we are in discussions to leave and will take no profits with us, really shows the answer to my second question (how did we profit) is:  we did not profit.  Unless you consider discussions about possible PSAs and the fact some U.S. oil companies might serve on an advisory panel with no decision making authority as profit.   

The vast majority of murder convictions in this country are based on circumstantial evidence just like I showed you.  Not every crime occurs with a smoking gun in hand in front of a cop.   That's not how our world works.

Why can't the US just leave?  Where is the legal obligation that we have to stay?  Where do you get the authority?

So the US is one giant charity doling out hundreds of billions of dollars in the greatest social experiment in recent history just b/c we are so gosh darned nice?

You can do a little  better than that Beach Bum.

It is not the US that profits under the Iraq law.  It is the corporations that collect fees and direct Iraqi contracts...it also helps to have 150,000 armed soldiers illegally occupying the country to get the Iraqis to see things our way.

You must have missed the part of the law that vests decision making in the foreign oil companies.

[Decker]

Tell me Beach Bum, would Iraq have to split its authority with foreign entities and open its oil fields to exploitation if the US had not invaded the country?

Nope.  The oil was nationalized.  The US changed that.  Right?

[Dos Equis]

When you say "we", who are you talking about?

U.S.

[Dos Equis]

The vast majority of murder convictions in this country are based on circumstantial evidence just like I showed you.  Not every crime occurs with a smoking gun in hand in front of a cop.   That's not how our world works.

Why can't the US just leave?  Where is the legal obligation that we have to stay?  Where do you get the authority?

So the US is one giant charity doling out hundreds of billions of dollars in the greatest social experiment in recent history just b/c we are so gosh darned nice?

You can do a little  better than that Beach Bum.

It is not the US that profits under the Iraq law.  It is the corporations that collect fees and direct Iraqi contracts...it also helps to have 150,000 armed soldiers illegally occupying the country to get the Iraqis to see things our way.

You must have missed the part of the law that vests decision making in the foreign oil companies.

Murder convictions are not based on the kind of piecemeal innuendo discussed in this thread. 

There was no "legal" obligation to stay.  There was a moral obligation to stay.  I get that from my common sense.  We cannot wipe out a country and then leave, with hostile neighbors on the border, civil war, and probably genocide to follow. 

I didn't call the U.S. a giant charity.  You did.  I'm saying your contention that we went to war so a handful of U.S. oil companies could obtain PSAs or be part of some advisory panel doesn't do much to support your opinion.     

Can you identify the "corporations that collect fees and direct Iraqi contracts"?

I missed the part of the law that supports your opinion that the U.S. "runs the show." 

[Deicide]

Why is anyone arguing about this anymore? It is well known that most things we do, be it Georgia or Iraq have something to do oil.

[Decker]

Murder convictions are not based on the kind of piecemeal innuendo discussed in this thread. 

There was no "legal" obligation to stay.  There was a moral obligation to stay.  I get that from my common sense.  We cannot wipe out a country and then leave, with hostile neighbors on the border, civil war, and probably genocide to follow. 

I didn't call the U.S. a giant charity.  You did.  I'm saying your contention that we went to war so a handful of U.S. oil companies could obtain PSAs or be part of some advisory panel doesn't do much to support your opinion.     

Can you identify the "corporations that collect fees and direct Iraqi contracts"?

I missed the part of the law that supports your opinion that the U.S. "runs the show." 

Murder convictions do happen with exactly this sort of circumstantial evidence.  Unless you can prove otherwise, which you can't, this issue is over.

So now The US is following Beach Bum's moral imperative...why it's common sense even.  The US kills btn 80,000 and 650,000 Iraqis and displaces another 4 million and you suddenly have moral pangs about these people's welfare.  I'm sorry, that's a tad bit hypocritical.

[Dos Equis]

Murder convictions do happen with exactly this sort of circumstantial evidence.  Unless you can prove otherwise, which you can't, this issue is over.

So now The US is following Beach Bum's moral imperative...why it's common sense even.  The US kills btn 80,000 and 650,000 Iraqis and displaces another 4 million and you suddenly have moral pangs about these people's welfare.  I'm sorry, that's a tad bit hypocritical.

lol . . . You state a purported fact, with zero support, and tell me to disprove it?  Uh . . . no. 

Yes, common sense.   

Can you identify the "corporations that collect fees and direct Iraqi contracts"?

[Bindare_Dundat]

U.S.

Who in the US is what I meant. The citizens, a corporation, etc...

[Decker]

lol . . . You state a purported fact, with zero support, and tell me to disprove it?  Uh . . . no. 

Yes, common sense.   

Can you identify the "corporations that collect fees and direct Iraqi contracts"?

I apologize if my tone was offbase.  I was hungry at the time and my wife was hurrying me to go pick up our new tv.  sorry.

First here's the contractual authority given to foreign big oil firms:

B- The ministry, and after coordinating with regions and producing provinces, and in adherence to ARTICLE 9 of this law, is to propose to the Federal oil and gas Council the best methods to develop the discovered but yet not developed fields.

C- The ministry prepares model exploration and production contracts to be approved by the Federal Oil and Gas Council and to be appended to this law. These model contracts must guarantee the best levels of coordination between the oil ministry, INOC, and the regions each according to their specific responsibility in relation to both this law and the international oil companies.

D- The utmost efforts must be put into insuring speedy and efficient development of the fields discovered but partially or entirely not yet developed when this law is enacted, and it is permissible to develop these fields in collaboration with reputable oil companies that have the efficient financial, administrative, technical, operational capabilities according to the contracting terms and the regulations issued by the Federal Oil and Gas Council.

E- The Federal oil and gas Council, the oil ministry, INOC, and the regional entities have to carry out an exploratory program in Iraq to asses the oil and gas assists, compensate production, and add new reserves.

F- The ministry must provide the federal oil and gas council with a comprehensive proposal for oil and gas exploration throughout the Republic of Iraq in coordination with the regions and the producing provinces, sorting out the areas according to their oil and gas potentials, implemented within a short time table in order to guarantee increasing reserves and continuing and developing production

A- The rights for conducting Petroleum Operations shall be granted on the basis of an Exploration and Production contract. The contract shall be entered between the Ministry (or the regional entity) and an Iraqi or Foreign Person, natural or legal, which has demonstrated to the Ministry the technical competence and financial capability that are adequate for the efficient conduct of Petroleum Operations according to what the Federal oil and gas Council and mentioned in ARTICLE 5/C/Fifth, and in accordance to the mechanisms of negotiations and contracting mentioned in ARTICLE 10 of this law. shall not be granted to Foreign Persons, singular or plural whose countries of Origin do not allow Iraqi entities to seekSecond: Participate in the licensing process regarding activities within its respective province related to exploration and production of discovered but undeveloped fields mentioned in appendix number 3 according to mechanisms motioned in ARTICLE 9 and based on contracting types prepared by the Federal Oil and Gas Council and in accordance to regulations issued by Federal Oil and Gas Council with qualified international oil companies adherent to the bases put by the Federal Oil and Gas Council. reciprocal opportunities. The contracts shall be approved by the Council of Ministers of the Republic of Iraq.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=JAR20070220&articleId=4868

Could you explain to me why any foreign persons (Panel of independent experts) are required under Iraqi law to manage Iraqi oil?

The oil has been managed by Iraqi people forever.  Why are foreigners brought in?


C. Federal Oil and Gas Council

First: To assist the Council of Ministers in creating Petroleum policies and related plans, arranged by the ministry in coordination with the producing provinces and regions, and to put important legislations for exploration and production based on

ARTICLE 9 of this law the ministers council creates an entity to be named "the Federal Oil and Gas Council". The Prime Minister or his/her representative shall be the president of this council, and the council should include:

1- Federal Government’s Ministers from the ministries of oil, treasury, planning, and cooperative development.

2- The director of the Iraqi central bank

3- A regional government minister representing each region.

4- A representative from each producing province not included in a region

5- Executive managers of from important related petroleum companies including the national Iraqi oil company and the oil marketing company

6- Three or less experts specialized in petroleum, finance, and economy to be hired for a period not exceeding 5 years based on a resolution from the council of ministers.

Second: the Federal Oil and Gas Council holds the responsibility of putting federal petroleum policies, exploration plans, fields’ development and main pipelines plans inside Iraq, and this council has the authority to approve any major changes in such plans and policies.

Third: the Federal Oil and Gas Council reviews and changes the exploration and production contracts that give the rights of petroleum operations according to ARTICLE 9 of this law inside Iraq.

Fourth: the Federal Oil and Gas Council approves the types of exploration and production contracts, and chooses the appropriate contract type for the field nature or exploration area or based on offers.

Fifth: the Federal Oil and Gas Council decides the special instructions for negotiations pertaining to granting rights or signing development and production contracts, and setting qualification criteria for companies.

Sixth: To assist the Federal Oil and Gas Council in reviewing exploration and production contracts and petroleum fields’ development plans, the council rely on the assistant of a bureau called the "independent consultants’ bureau" that includes crude oil and natural gas experts, both Iraqis foreigners, this council decides their number, and they should be qualified and have a good reputation and long practical experience in exploration and production operation and in petroleum contracts, and they should be chosen by consensus of the council and contracted for a renewable one year contract. The independent consultants’ bureau gives its recommendations and advice to the Federal Oil and Gas Council in issues related to rights contracts, fields’ development plans, and any other related issues requested by the Federal Oil and Gas Council.
Seventh: the Federal Oil and Gas Council is the competent authority to approve the transfer of rights among holders of Exploration and Production right and associated amendment of contracts provided this does not adversely affect the national content including the percentage of national participation.
Eighth: the Federal Oil and Gas Council is responsible for ensuring that Petroleum resources are discovered, developed, and produced in an optimal manner and in the best interest of the people in accordance with legislation, regulations and contractual conditions as well as recognised international standards.
Ninth: The Federal Oil and Gas Council have the right to create any entities important for implementing its duties, and to create its bylaws.

Tenth: Members of the Federal Oil and Gas Council can suggest policies and law drafts to the Federal Oil and Gas Council.


Beach Bum who do you think is an adviser to the FOGC when the law requires that an Iraqi or Foreign Person, natural or legal, which has demonstrated to the Ministry the technical competence and financial capability that are adequate for the efficient conduct of Petroleum Operations according to what the Federal oil and gas Council and mentioned in ARTICLE 5/C/Fifth, and in accordance to the mechanisms of negotiations and contracting mentioned in ARTICLE 10 of this law.

Why where on earth would you find a foreign (non-iraqi) person with demonstrated technical competence and financial capability to conduct Petroleum Operations in Iraq?

Maybe Big Oil.

And finally there are 2 kinds of evidence: direct and circumstantial.  Unless there are witnesses to the killing, the evidence used against the accused is circumstantial.  Anybody in the legal business knows the rarity of eyewitness murders going to trial b/c of the direct evidence of murder.  It's the murders that aren't done in broad daylight for all to see that go to trial and rely on circumstantial evidence for proof.  That's the vast majority of murder cases.

[Dos Equis]

Bump, given the withdrawal of all troops from Iraq. 

[240 is Back]

Bump, given the withdrawal of all troops from Iraq. 

we're removing the US troops, beach bum.  leaving 150 men, I think?

but the military contractors?  lolzercopter...

[Dos Equis]

I read through the thread again.  I created this thread three years ago.  Pretty clear the people who thought we went to war in Iraq to control and/or profit from their oil were wrong.  And not just talking about those who posted in the thread, but the many people who claimed this was a war for oil.   

[240 is Back]

I disagree, BB.  Senator mccain, who knows more about the way of the world than you or I, made it VERY clear that the Iraq war was about oil:

"My friends, I will have an energy policy that we will be talking about, which will eliminate our dependence on oil from the Middle East that will -- that will then prevent us -- that will prevent us from having ever to send our young men and women into conflict again in the Middle East," McCain said.

Was Senator Mccain wrong, beach Bum?  And if so, please tell us what insight you have into the matter that Mccain does not.

[Dos Equis]

I disagree, BB.  Senator mccain, who knows more about the way of the world than you or I, made it VERY clear that the Iraq war was about oil:

"My friends, I will have an energy policy that we will be talking about, which will eliminate our dependence on oil from the Middle East that will -- that will then prevent us -- that will prevent us from having ever to send our young men and women into conflict again in the Middle East," McCain said.

Was Senator Mccain wrong, beach Bum?  And if so, please tell us what insight you have into the matter that Mccain does not.

Who is "us"?     What an asinine interpretation of his comments.  9/11 Troofer approved.  lol   Go back and read your comments in this thread.  You haven't learned a darn thing.  lol

[240 is Back]

Who is "us"?     What an asinine interpretation of his comments.  9/11 Troofer approved.  lol   Go back and read your comments in this thread.  You haven't learned a darn thing.  lol

Brutal 'attack the messenger'.

You didn't answer my Q.  Was Mccain wrong?  This was 2008... he was the GOP nominee running for president, and he outright admitted why we were in iraq - and he vowed it would happen again on his watch, but he will "eliminate our dependence on oil from the Middle East".

You can interpret that any way you want, but I think it's pretty clear to most of us what mccain was saying.

No disrespect - it just feels like you want to be right about the "it's not about oil" position that you've held for years.  Unfortunately, mccain said the opposite.  Personally, based upon his experience and wisdom - I trust his opinion more than yours.


You can return to using phrases like "911 Troofer" now if deflecting the topic makes you feel better, okay?

[Dos Equis]

Brutal 'attack the messenger'.

You didn't answer my Q.  Was Mccain wrong?  This was 2008... he was the GOP nominee running for president, and he outright admitted why we were in iraq - and he vowed it would happen again on his watch, but he will "eliminate our dependence on oil from the Middle East".

You can interpret that any way you want, but I think it's pretty clear to most of us what mccain was saying.

No disrespect - it just feels like you want to be right about the "it's not about oil" position that you've held for years.  Unfortunately, mccain said the opposite.  Personally, based upon his experience and wisdom - I trust his opinion more than yours.


You can return to using phrases like "911 Troofer" now if deflecting the topic makes you feel better, okay?

No, simpleton.     I attacked your asinine interpretation of McCain's comments.  That's attacking the message, not the messenger. 

McCain did not admit that we went to war to control or profit from Iraq's oil.  The facts are we don't control Iraq's oil, and we did not, and do not, profit from Iraq's oil.  This is the kind of twisted logic that results in people believing unnamed conspirators in the government and military cooperated with foreign terrorists to shoot a missile into the Pentagon, and make a commercial plane and all of its passengers disappear.  lol   

So, to recap, calling you a simpleton was attacking the messenger.  Calling your interpretation of McCain's comments stupid was attacking the message.  HTH.     

[240 is Back]

No, simpleton.     I attacked your asinine interpretation of McCain's comments.  That's attacking the message, not the messenger. 

McCain did not admit that we went to war to control or profit from Iraq's oil.  The facts are we don't control Iraq's oil, and we did not, and do not, profit from Iraq's oil.  This is the kind of twisted logic that results in people believing unnamed conspirators in the government and military cooperated with foreign terrorists to shoot a missile into the Pentagon, and make a commercial plane and all of its passengers disappear.  lol   

So, to recap, calling you a simpleton was attacking the messenger.  Calling your interpretation of McCain's comments stupid was attacking the message.  HTH.     

Well, I delivered my analysis of Mccain's words.

Your response was to say we failed at this goal.

It doesn't change the FACT that the war was for oil - it just looks like it was a mission fail, in that case.   Mccain states the reason for war very clearly.

The fact you're repeatedly calling me names tells me, and others reading, that you're pretty upset about this and it's already at an emotional level for you.  I don't feel that way (anymore) as I used to.  It is what it is.  Mccain, Obama, Romney, Bush... they'll all keep the policy of involvement in the middle east for oil.

You can just believe we're involved in so many mid east nations - and that it has nothing to do with oil.  Maybe me and mccain and most people are wrong.  have a good day buddy.

[Dos Equis]

Well, I delivered my analysis of Mccain's words.

Your response was to say we failed at this goal.

It doesn't change the FACT that the war was for oil - it just looks like it was a mission fail, in that case.   Mccain states the reason for war very clearly.

The fact you're repeatedly calling me names tells me, and others reading, that you're pretty upset about this and it's already at an emotional level for you.  I don't feel that way (anymore) as I used to.  It is what it is.  Mccain, Obama, Romney, Bush... they'll all keep the policy of involvement in the middle east for oil.

You can just believe we're involved in so many mid east nations - and that it has nothing to do with oil.  Maybe me and mccain and most people are wrong.  have a good day buddy.

lol.  That's really funny.    

[Dos Equis]

"War for oil" fail bump.  

[TheGrinch]

George Bush circa 2003

"...The Iraqi people will pay for their own freedom via their oil...."



ROFL!!!... hahaha..

no... US didnt pay with their tax dollars


check the oil price in 2003... what is it now a barrel?