Are people ruining the Doberman?

[MB_722]

It doesn't look right, I like them cropped and docked.

[Tapper]

My Dobie at home is docked and cropped and I think she looks wonderful. But Ive seen a couple of Dobermans here in Prague and they almost look like hounds, though they do crop the tail.

[~weed~]

No, how is choosing not to remove parts of the animal for purely cosmetic reasons considered ruining it?   

  The only reason a dog should be cropped or docked is if it is a working dog doing what the breed was intended for and the cropping and/or docking was done for the health of the animal in doing it's job. 

  I have had dogs cropped before and will never again in the future as I believe it is unnecessary and purely cosmetic and the animal is not consenting to cosmetic surgery.   

 Man should get over itself     yes a doberman is ruined with floppy ears and a tail.  Is it suddenly not a good companion?  If you don't like the look of a breed unless you have to cut off parts of it, find a breed you do like the looks of the way it is born.   

[knny187]

German Rottweilers generally don't have their tails docked.

If they are...they are not AKC recognized if that makes any sense since Germany is it's actual origin.

[MB_722]

WTH is this !! 

[knny187]

they look more intimidating being cropped & docked

[Hereford]

That's whats it all about for most big dog owners.

Being intimidating.

[MB_722]

That's whats it all about for most big dog owners.

Being intimidating.

not at all.

I wouldn't want a dog different from what Louis Dobermann intended. It's shape has changed somewhat since then but the ears and tail should remain the same. Cropped and docked.

[MB_722]

another thing. Dobermans are so intelligent. I wouldn't want one looking so dopey.

[MuscleMcMannus]

No, how is choosing not to remove parts of the animal for purely cosmetic reasons considered ruining it?   

  The only reason a dog should be cropped or docked is if it is a working dog doing what the breed was intended for and the cropping and/or docking was done for the health of the animal in doing it's job. 

  I have had dogs cropped before and will never again in the future as I believe it is unnecessary and purely cosmetic and the animal is not consenting to cosmetic surgery.   

 Man should get over itself     yes a doberman is ruined with floppy ears and a tail.  Is it suddenly not a good companion?  If you don't like the look of a breed unless you have to cut off parts of it, find a breed you do like the looks of the way it is born.   

The entire premise of dog breeding is both cosmetic and functional.  Get over it.  I have Boxers and they look absolutely pathetic without a docked tail and cropped ears.  It maintains the breed standard.  You can go out there and buy pet quality dogs.  Good for you if that's your perogative.  But those of us who know quality want pure bred dogs that are supposed to be the breed standard.  Boxers are supposed to look a certain way.  It's people with your mentality that give us shitty breeds and puppy mills.  By the way you're on a bodybuilding message board remember? LOL. 

[MuscleMcMannus]

To the OPer the Doberman has gone through the same evolution that the Boxer has.  An American boxer looks very different than it's German counterpart.  I happen to love the look of German Boxers.  Much more robust, stockier etc.  American Boxers are more trim and graceful.  Both are beautiful but there is a very obvious difference.  Same thing with many German breeds vs. American breeds i.e. the Dobie, the Great Dane etc. 

[~weed~]

The entire premise of dog breeding is both cosmetic and functional.  Get over it.  I have Boxers and they look absolutely pathetic without a docked tail and cropped ears.  It maintains the breed standard.  You can go out there and buy pet quality dogs.  Good for you if that's your perogative.  But those of us who know quality want pure bred dogs that are supposed to be the breed standard.  Boxers are supposed to look a certain way.  It's people with your mentality that give us shitty breeds and puppy mills.  By the way you're on a bodybuilding message board remember? LOL. 

Dogs were bred for a PURPOSE.  In some cases to do their PURPOSE the cropping and docking came in.  Most breed standards for showing allow uncropped and undocked dogs to be entered and are both considered standards for the breeds.

  The tail and ears are going to be the last of whether an animal is considered to standard or not.       Chopping them off is not suddenly going to make a poorly bred dog be "quality"      But the cropping and docking sure does help byb's and puppymillers pass off "quality dogs"!   

  What does this being a bodybuilding site have to do with anything?   

[MuscleMcMannus]

Dogs were bred for a PURPOSE.  In some cases to do their PURPOSE the cropping and docking came in.  Most breed standards for showing allow uncropped and undocked dogs to be entered and are both considered standards for the breeds.

  The tail and ears are going to be the last of whether an animal is considered to standard or not.       Chopping them off is not suddenly going to make a poorly bred dog be "quality"      But the cropping and docking sure does help byb's and puppymillers pass off "quality dogs"!   

  What does this being a bodybuilding site have to do with anything?   

And what was the purpose for tail docking and ear cropping for a majority of dogs?  Cosmetic i.e. intimidation.  Boxers and Doberman's for the most part were originally bred for guard dog purposes. 

[~weed~]

And what was the purpose for tail docking and ear cropping for a majority of dogs?  Cosmetic i.e. intimidation.  Boxers and Doberman's for the most part were originally bred for guard dog purposes. 

  Danes- so the boars wouldn't tear them,  same for some other dogs that are used in brush and their ears/tails get scratched and torn up.  Was better for the dogs to crop and dock than to have repeated injuries that would result in having to be docked/cropped when they were older.

Dobermans were cropped for better sound pickup as guard dogs, not for intimidation.  Boxers were bred to hunt, were probably cropped and docked so they would not get torn up in the brush or that their prey could grab their ears.

   Again, there was a purpose that directly related to them doing the JOB they were bred for, and it wasn't for looks.   

[MuscleMcMannus]

Danes- so the boars wouldn't tear them,  same for some other dogs that are used in brush and their ears/tails get scratched and torn up.  Was better for the dogs to crop and dock than to have repeated injuries that would result in having to be docked/cropped when they were older.

Dobermans were cropped for better sound pickup as guard dogs, not for intimidation.  Boxers were bred to hunt, were probably cropped and docked so they would not get torn up in the brush or that their prey could grab their ears.

   Again, there was a purpose that directly related to them doing the JOB they were bred for, and it wasn't for looks.   

Sorry Boxers were not bred to hunt dude.  They were bred as security/guard dogs.  Maybe the very original bullyish boxer but post WWI they were used mainly for security/guarding. 

[~weed~]

Just found a source that said they were originally bred to hunt bears? 

http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/view_boxer-dog-faq.htm



The boxer is a German breed, developed in the late 1800s from mastiff-type dogs known as bullenbeisers (bull-baiters). The brabant bullenbeiser is generally accepted as being the most immediate ancestor of the boxer. These dogs were selectively bred for hunting and holding prey – and the independent thinking ability required for that task remains a feature of the breed today.


Long tails and ears would be slashed and ripped off for sure, so they cut them short.

[calmus]

Oh really, weed? Seems like a dog's ear would be more vulnerable to damage when it is exposed after being docked.  And dogs can cock their ears when they want to listen.

So why didn't they crop wolfhounds' (irish and russian) ears and tails? Seems like a snapping wolf could do at least as much damage as a boar.

And what purpose were boxers bred for? all they seem to do is hang out and slobber.

[~weed~]

Danes were cropped because a boar would grab onto them.    I think boars are nastier than the wolves and perhaps they were not required to actually bring the animal down?   I have not researched every breed and it's original purpose.   

I think the acustics of a cropped pointed in will be better than a floppy ear if you want a guard dog.   

  Boxers were bull and bear baiters and hunters.


  It's one thing to like the look of a cropping or docking, I will admit I like the look better on some breeds, but I don't see it as "ruining" a breed if people choose not to remove parts of the animal for what are now cosmetic reasons.   

[~weed~]

Sorry Boxers were not bred to hunt dude.  They were bred as security/guard dogs.  Maybe the very original bullyish boxer but post WWI they were used mainly for security/guarding. 

and therefore the trend to chop off parts was already in how the breed was seen.    Just like it still is today.   Cosmetics, not purpose. 

[calmus]

Bet you'd change your tune if you ever met a wolf in real life.  

And dog's ears are not concert halls.  They don't need good "accoustics"   Show me one study which actually proves that a cropped dog can hear better than an uncropped one.

And boxers were bred for kicks. they're too light to hold a calf down, let alone a bull or a bear.

[MB_722]

EARS

The Dobermans "look" is that of a compact, powerful, medium sized dog that shows an attitude and temperament reflecting great nobility and confidence. His short, tight coat and cropped ears and docked tail add to his clean lines and effectiveness as an elite protection breed. But, the docked tail and the cropped ears on the Doberman are historically VERY FUNCTIONAL in origin and serve important purposes.
A docked tail was an important characteristic of the Doberman because the tail represents a "body part" that can be easily and readily injured. Injury can happen by accident, such as knocking it against hard surfaces or getting it caught between surfaces (doors, windows, car doors) which can cause bruising, hematomas (pockets of blood), sloughing off of hair and tissue, gangrene and terrible fractures of the vertebra requiring major reparative surgery to treat and even save the tail. The tail also served as a handle that an attacker could grab and injure which could cause the dog to experience pain and trauma and cause him to abandon his job of protecting his owner. So docking was also a functional part of the Dobermans effectiveness as a family protector.

Cropped ears, likewise, were the logical, functional addition to complete the Dobermans physical equipment to make him the elite family companion and protection dog that he was, even from the beginning. There are two primary reasons that we desire cropped ears, and both have to do with FUNCTION. The first is that a neatly cropped ear is less of a "handle" for an attacker to hang on to. Since the Doberman has been bred to be a personal protector, a cropped ear gives the dog a decided advantage in a confrontation with a perpetrator. The second has to do with sound "localization". An erect earred dog can localize the source of a sound to within a 5 degree cone, whereas a drop earred dog can only localize a sound source to within a 20 degree cone. Since Dobermans do SEARCH AND DETECTION as well as SEARCH AND RESCUE, cropped ears are a decided advantage.

The DOBERMAN **STANDARD** asks for "ears, normally cropped". This simply implies that they are cropped in a normal manner. Many people choose to leave their Doberman puppy uncropped. These are mostly people who have a Doberman as a pet only and do not exhibit them in competition in the various AKC events. There is no disqualification for uncropped ears, and people can and do show Dobermans that are not cropped, in the US. But, because the overwhelming majority of exhibitors show their Dobermans cropped, perhaps it just looks like there is no choice involved. It is a matter of personal preference as to crop or not crop their puppy and likewise to show a cropped or uncropped Doberman in AKC events.

If the ears are cropped they must be cut in a shapely manner when the Doberman is a youngster, usually between 7 to 10 weeks.The ear must be long enough to crop, and the puppy should not be too old that the surgery becomes more difficult for the ears to successfully stand.

http://bakaridobes.westhost.com/publiceducation/PECEars.html

[~weed~]

Bet you'd change your tune if you ever met a wolf in real life.  

And dog's ears are not concert halls.  They don't need good "accoustics"   Show me one study which actually proves that a cropped dog can hear better than an uncropped one.

And boxers were bred for kicks. they're too light to hold a calf down, let alone a bull or a bear.

  I believe boars are known to stand there ground and attack, where a wolf if it sees the opportunity will run. I do not believe the Wolfhounds ears are as long or flappy as Danes are, but I would have to look, but again, what they were hunting they might not have had to physically engage with. 

  I don't know if they did studies before cropping any dogs, I am just posting the reasons they had behind it when the dog was being used for a PURPOSE. They thought it would improve the dogs hearing as a guard dog.

  Boxers were bred to hunt, I found a few sources to back that up.  Can you post ONE that says "they were bred for kicks"?  

[~weed~]

Bet you'd change your tune if you ever met a wolf in real life.  

And dog's ears are not concert halls.  They don't need good "accoustics"   Show me one study which actually proves that a cropped dog can hear better than an uncropped one.

And boxers were bred for kicks. they're too light to hold a calf down, let alone a bull or a bear.

  I believe boars are known to stand there ground and attack, where a wolf if it sees the opportunity will run. I do not believe the Wolfhounds ears are as long or flappy as Danes are, but I would have to look, but again, what they were hunting they might not have had to physically engage with. 

  I don't know if they did studies before cropping any dogs, I am just posting the reasons they had behind it when the dog was being used for a PURPOSE. They thought it would improve the dogs hearing as a guard dog.

  Boxers were bred to hunt, I found a few sources to back that up.  Can you post ONE that says "they were bred for kicks"?  

People are ruining the breeds, and not by cropping or not cropping.  Some breeds of today couldn't even do what they were bred for because of how people have changed the breed standards over the years.  The breed should first and foremost be able to the job it was bred for.     So leaving a tail undocked or ears uncropped is the LEAST of what is "ruining" breeds.

[knny187]

Well, one thing I know for sure, I wish sometimes our Rottweiler had a tail so when i wrestle with him I had something to hang on too.  When you're on the floor going at it...every little advantage would help alot.  It may be one of the reasons why some breeds went to docking their tails for guard dogs.  I know for sure if you dock a Labradors tail....he has a crappy rudder when trying to swim for ducks.  Also, breeds like Beagles & Bassett hounds are desired with larger flappy ears.  Because Rabbits are their main hunt, they are short dogs that need to get under brush.  The long ears helps keeps debri out of the ear canal.  So there's a breed that prefers long flappy ears.

I've asked the question many times about docking tails if the puppies are in pain & everyone says no.  The puppy doesn't seem in pain & so I wonder if the nerve endings are not the same as an adult dog.  Regardless, I think if I was given a choice between a Rottweiler with a tail...or without one...I would still picked the tail being docked.  Every Rottweiler I see with a tail just looks weird.  Besides, if ours had a tails, there would be a lot more things he would break in the house whipping that around.

As for wolves & boars.  They are both dangerous animals.  Both have been known to attack people & kill people.  Boars when cornered are known to be extemley dangerous & very tough to kill because of their high threshold & will.  They also been known to weigh up to a couple hundred of pounds.

I wouldn't want to meet either one in the woods, especially if I was at the wrong place or time.

[BigNBloated]

Most people I am around with my pit ask why her tail isnt docked. I have never seen a docked pit and I think they look rediculous without a tail.  From what I've read they arent traditionally docked anyways so I don't understand why I am getting all the feedback about Macy's tail.