HRT--Started today----Doctor thinks past AAS use is the culprit

[strength]

Just got back from getting my script.
Used fairly heavy at times from ages 19-23. Some of you may remember me before the server crash, i was a MOD over here. Have not touched AAS for 3 years. Used lots of tren and test mainly. Some deca and dbol from time to time.

Anyway, i was feeling like crap and doctor took a full blood profile workup.

Total test- 119 range was 240-1048
Free test- .77 range was .95-4.30

Everything esle was normal and well within acceptable ranges.

Doctor has me on 1 cc EW. Follow up in 6 weeks to check PSA (prostrate). My doctor was really good about the whole thing. Even suggested in a few months after i am somewhat normalized we can try coming off and restarting my HPTA.

This guy knows his stuff for a GP.

Well i dont know what to think about my past AAS use. I can only assume it played a major role in my ability to produce test naturally.

[4thAD]

Welcome back! Good to see that a GP would actually listen to your probs. I assume that your insurance is paying for your HRT meds?

[strength]

yes


10 $ co pay for 10cc -10ml vial

200mg/week is what he is starting me on

its made by SANDOZ out of Colorado!  USA baby

No messing around with endo's or urologists, this guy just flat out treated me!!! 

God Bless him

[strength]

6 refills

[4thAD]

70ml's for 70 dollars not bad at all! In fact its wonderful.

[abc123]

Ask him to give you HCG while on cycle so your nuts don't shrink and your remaining Ledig cells don't die.  Then, once he gets comfortable with you ask for some Deca for your joints.

[4thAD]

Definitely will need some HCG! Otherwise @200mg ew you will most likely be completely shut down.

[strength]

Definitely will need some HCG! Otherwise @200mg ew you will most likely be completely shut down.

okay, i will have to give it a few months and print up some stuff on hcg to give it to him...   

What kind of free test levels am i looking att with 200 mg EW??,  should i cut it down to 100?

[4thAD]

Depends on your body. Should take you right to the top of the chart, maybe even higher. You will only know this for sure by follow up blood work. From there your Doc will be able to adjust your dose. The HCG needs to be started as soon as possible, and is very important for healthy testicles.

[Vet]

Definitely will need some HCG! Otherwise @200mg ew you will most likely be completely shut down.

Thats not true.  You need to remember he's a guy who is on HRT, not someone who had normal test levels and started on a 200 mg/week cycle. 

If the 200 mg/week returns his test levels to normal, he may actually have an increased sperm count, not shutdown. 

[4thAD]

Uh sorry VET, but you are wrong on this one bro. 200mg will more than likely shut you down completely. Now I do believe that it is possible to run TRT and not get shut down, but 200mg ew will do the trick.

[abc123]

Uh sorry VET, but you are wrong on this one bro. 200mg will more than likely shut you down completely. Now I do believe that it is possible to run TRT and not get shut down, but 200mg ew will do the trick.

I agree with 4thAD on this one.  Theoretically you would not get shutdown if you were still in the normal range, but it's always happened to me and I had low test levels to begin with.  Even 100 mg shuts me down.

[strength]

Uh sorry VET, but you are wrong on this one bro. 200mg will more than likely shut you down completely. Now I do believe that it is possible to run TRT and not get shut down, but 200mg ew will do the trick.

If i am done having kids is there really concern?

[abc123]

If i am done having kids is there really concern?

Probably not, but do you want peanut sized balls?

You should keep your nuts working so it won't be an issue either way.  Just use HCG during cycle.  500 IU E3D or twice a week should do the trick.

[strength]

Probably not, but do you want peanut sized balls?

You should keep your nuts working so it won't be an issue either way.  Just use HCG during cycle.  500 IU E3D or twice a week should do the trick.

Well its not a "cycle" so to speak.  But i will ask my doc about HCG,  I am almost certain he has no idea what it is

[Arnold jr]

Well its not a "cycle" so to speak.  But i will ask my doc about HCG,  I am almost certain he has no idea what it is

He'll more then likely know what it is...most Dr's do. I always talk to all of my Dr. clients about gear and related drugs and most of them know all about HCG. After all, HCG was not invented for steroid use purposes at all.

As for needing HCG while he is on HRT. Sorry, I don't buy it, no need for it IMO.

If you're taking exogenous test, even 200mg/wk, you have shut your natural test levels down...all the HCG in the world won't change this.

A lot of guys like the idea that if they take HCG while on cycle that it keeps their nuts full, keeps them full of semen, when in fact this is another myth.

When you're on cycle on HRT, whatever you want to call it, but when "ON" the actual amount of semen is heavily reduced. So many guys will argue and say no way, I take HCG and when I "get off" my loads are huge. OK, great, but actual semen only makes up about 1% of what comes out when a I guy gets off...and if he's on cycle, he is not producing new sperm like he was before, so now it's even less.

Yes, HCG will trigger the body to produce it's own testosterone, but not when exogenous test is present.

[4thAD]

When I say HCG will keep your balls full, I am not referring to semen! I am saying it will stop testicular atrophy. Keeping the leydig alive while ON is important to testicular health. Studies have proven the effects of HCG while on cycle, or TRT. Even FreakFestMD has spoken on the importance of HCG while on cycle. ON is ON is ON weather it is 200mg ew, or 500mg ew. Running HCG during or post cycle is a personal decision, but regardless it is important when on long term TRT.

[strength]

He'll more then likely know what it is...most Dr's do. I always talk to all of my Dr. clients about gear and related drugs and most of them know all about HCG. After all, HCG was not invented for steroid use purposes at all.

As for needing HCG while he is on HRT. Sorry, I don't buy it, no need for it IMO.

If you're taking exogenous test, even 200mg/wk, you have shut your natural test levels down...all the HCG in the world won't change this.

A lot of guys like the idea that if they take HCG while on cycle that it keeps their nuts full, keeps them full of semen, when in fact this is another myth.

When you're on cycle on HRT, whatever you want to call it, but when "ON" the actual amount of semen is heavily reduced. So many guys will argue and say no way, I take HCG and when I "get off" my loads are huge. OK, great, but actual semen only makes up about 1% of what comes out when a I guy gets off...and if he's on cycle, he is not producing new sperm like he was before, so now it's even less.

Yes, HCG will trigger the body to produce it's own testosterone, but not when exogenous test is present.

thanks arnold, good post

[Emmortal]

As for needing HCG while he is on HRT. Sorry, I don't buy it, no need for it IMO.

If you're taking exogenous test, even 200mg/wk, you have shut your natural test levels down...all the HCG in the world won't change this.

A lot of guys like the idea that if they take HCG while on cycle that it keeps their nuts full, keeps them full of semen, when in fact this is another myth.

When you're on cycle on HRT, whatever you want to call it, but when "ON" the actual amount of semen is heavily reduced. So many guys will argue and say no way, I take HCG and when I "get off" my loads are huge. OK, great, but actual semen only makes up about 1% of what comes out when a I guy gets off...and if he's on cycle, he is not producing new sperm like he was before, so now it's even less.

Yes, HCG will trigger the body to produce it's own testosterone, but not when exogenous test is present.

I hate to correct you, but you are indeed wrong.  HCG does in fact get the testes working while ON cycle to produce natural test, here's a study that shows exactyl that.  Patients taking 200mg a week of Testosterone took 500ius e3d of HCG and got the testes to produce testosterone.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=hcg+male+steroids+hypogonadism&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=40&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

And I'm not sure where you got the comment from about your testes not producing sperm while on cycle.  That's completely false and has been proven wrong some time ago.  There were some studies done on the effectiveness of exogenous testosterone in males for birth control and they found it to be not reliable due to the percentage of males who were still producing sperm, I believe it was around 50% IIRC.

[Vet]

The thing you have to consider is at what point does a person who is on HRT enter into the supraphysiological state of testosterone levels and at what point does that have a negative effect on an individual.  I think its an internet misnomer that 200 mg of tesosterone per week will "shut you down", ESPECIALLY in a male that has subphysiological LH and testosterone levels.  I also think the reliance on HCG by so many doesn't really make sense, especially in the case of a man on HRT.  I think there is alot of internet bullshit about HCG. 

I think we are all in agreement that testosterone levels in the blood determine how much "volume" of sperm (meaning sabsolute numbers) a man will produce. In a healthy male, the anterior pituitary gland secretes LH, which binds with Leydig cells of the testicle, causing the production of testosterone.   The testes release testosterone and the hormone Inhibin into the blood where they are detected by the pituitary gland and hypothalamus.

FSH is also secreted by the anterior pituitary gland, where it enters the blood stream and stimulates the production of Androgen Binding Protein by the sertoli cells in the seminiferous tubuals.  ABP is a key protein for the development of spermatogonia because in order for sperm cells to develop, they MUST HAVE a testosterone concentration as high as 20 to 50 times higher than serum testosterone levels.  Thats why the ABP is located where it is, it "traps" testosterone for this development to occur.   

At high levels, inhibin and testosterone will cause the pituitary to decrease the production of LH and FSH, which will cause a decrease in endogenous testosterone and gradually decrease the production of ABP.  The thing is that because of the exogenous testosterone, its still possible for there to be sufficient ABP and testosterone for normal sperm production. 

Its also possible for a man to have normal FSH, a low LH and low testosterone levels---thats why I personally am on HRT.   My FSH levels are "normal".  My sperm count actually went up after starting HRT--which is also expected because I returned to a physiological level of testosterone, which allowed for normal spermatozoa maturation. 

Does that make sense?   The magical "200 mg will shut you down”, isn’t necessarily true because of the individuality of dosing the hormone. 

[Emmortal]

Does that make sense?   The magical "200 mg will shut you down”, isn’t necessarily true because of the individuality of dosing the hormone. 

I agree with this and the rest of the post.  I just think that more often than not people, through their own experiences have dealt with shutdown at these doses, thus the reason why many post that 200mg will indeed shut you down.  I've seen far more people experience that than not, maybe those that haven't just don't post about it which is why there seems to be such a slant towards the shutdown theory.

[4thAD]

The thing you have to consider is at what point does a person who is on HRT enter into the supraphysiological state of testosterone levels and at what point does that have a negative effect on an individual.  I think its an internet misnomer that 200 mg of tesosterone per week will "shut you down", ESPECIALLY in a male that has subphysiological LH and testosterone levels.  I also think the reliance on HCG by so many doesn't really make sense, especially in the case of a man on HRT.  I think there is alot of internet bullshit about HCG. 

I think we are all in agreement that testosterone levels in the blood determine how much "volume" of sperm (meaning sabsolute numbers) a man will produce. In a healthy male, the anterior pituitary gland secretes LH, which binds with Leydig cells of the testicle, causing the production of testosterone.   The testes release testosterone and the hormone Inhibin into the blood where they are detected by the pituitary gland and hypothalamus.

FSH is also secreted by the anterior pituitary gland, where it enters the blood stream and stimulates the production of Androgen Binding Protein by the sertoli cells in the seminiferous tubuals.  ABP is a key protein for the development of spermatogonia because in order for sperm cells to develop, they MUST HAVE a testosterone concentration as high as 20 to 50 times higher than serum testosterone levels.  Thats why the ABP is located where it is, it "traps" testosterone for this development to occur.   

At high levels, inhibin and testosterone will cause the pituitary to decrease the production of LH and FSH, which will cause a decrease in endogenous testosterone and gradually decrease the production of ABP.  The thing is that because of the exogenous testosterone, its still possible for there to be sufficient ABP and testosterone for normal sperm production. 

Its also possible for a man to have normal FSH, a low LH and low testosterone levels---thats why I personally am on HRT.   My FSH levels are "normal".  My sperm count actually went up after starting HRT--which is also expected because I returned to a physiological level of testosterone, which allowed for normal spermatozoa maturation. 

Does that make sense?   The magical "200 mg will shut you down”, isn’t necessarily true because of the individuality of dosing the hormone. 

I absolutely agree that if you are using a dose of testosterone in TRT that is correct for your individual body that it is possible you will not get shut down. I have had this exact argument on other boards. I think for most 200mg will shut them down. The only way to be sure if you are shut down is to have the blood work done. I think some will be shut down even at physiological level of testosterone. There are so many guys on TRT being monitored by blood work that experience testicular atrophy, and shutdown (yes I know TA does not have to be present to be shut down).  Good to have you on here educating us Vet. It is much appreciated. I do agree that there is no magic number that indicates shut down!

[Arnold jr]

I hate to correct you, but you are indeed wrong.  HCG does in fact get the testes working while ON cycle to produce natural test, here's a study that shows exactyl that.  Patients taking 200mg a week of Testosterone took 500ius e3d of HCG and got the testes to produce testosterone.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=hcg+male+steroids+hypogonadism&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=40&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

And I'm not sure where you got the comment from about your testes not producing sperm while on cycle.  That's completely false and has been proven wrong some time ago.  There were some studies done on the effectiveness of exogenous testosterone in males for birth control and they found it to be not reliable due to the percentage of males who were still producing sperm, I believe it was around 50% IIRC.

Bro it's one of those topics that seems to have studies that support both sides of the theory's.
Of course I'm still of the beleif that if the body is getting what it needs from outside sources then it has no need to make it's own.

As for the semen comment, I didn't say it you don't produce semen, I said you don't at the rate you wold if not on, in many cases none at all but there is still semen in the system...it doesn't jsut disappear because you're on cycle and/or not on HCG.

Yes there is active semen in the body when on cycle, even without HCG. If there wasn't I wouldn't have numerous friends who have had kids while on cycle and who did not use HCG.

[Emmortal]

Bro it's one of those topics that seems to have studies that support both sides of the theory's.
Of course I'm still of the beleif that if the body is getting what it needs from outside sources then it has no need to make it's own.

As for the semen comment, I didn't say it you don't produce semen, I said you don't at the rate you wold if not on, in many cases none at all but there is still semen in the system...it doesn't jsut disappear because you're on cycle and/or not on HCG.

Yes there is active semen in the body when on cycle, even without HCG. If there wasn't I wouldn't have numerous friends who have had kids while on cycle and who did not use HCG.

I must have mis-read your post or misunderstood what you were saying.

HCG getting the testes to produce natural testosterone really isn't the main benefit of using it on cycle, at least IMO.  Testicular atrophy is what I like to avoid, and it's more than just a cosmetic reason.  When testicular atrophy occurs the cells die, they don't regenerate.  I think this is one of the main reasons why some guys, and a perfect example would be the OP, have problems down the road due to prior AAS usage.  With repeated testicular atrophy and cell death, over time this is going to cause the testes to produce less testosterone.  This obviously doesn't happen at the same rate for everyone, but using HCG on cycle you can avoid this and keep the testes working and hopefully avoid problems down the road.  You are right there is a lot of bullshit about HCG out there and most people don't know how or why to use it.  But it's pretty simple, avoiding testicular atrophy to keep yourself functioning down the road.  It's preventative maintenance and there's absolutely no reason why anyone shouldn't run it.

[Vet]

I must have mis-read your post or misunderstood what you were saying.

HCG getting the testes to produce natural testosterone really isn't the main benefit of using it on cycle, at least IMO.  Testicular atrophy is what I like to avoid, and it's more than just a cosmetic reason.  When testicular atrophy occurs the cells die, they don't regenerate.  I think this is one of the main reasons why some guys, and a perfect example would be the OP, have problems down the road due to prior AAS usage.  With repeated testicular atrophy and cell death, over time this is going to cause the testes to produce less testosterone.  This obviously doesn't happen at the same rate for everyone, but using HCG on cycle you can avoid this and keep the testes working and hopefully avoid problems down the road.  You are right there is a lot of bullshit about HCG out there and most people don't know how or why to use it.  But it's pretty simple, avoiding testicular atrophy to keep yourself functioning down the road.  It's preventative maintenance and there's absolutely no reason why anyone shouldn't run it.

You also need to remember its not necessarily teh size of the testicle in terms of testosterone production, but the endocrine function of the tissue that is there. 


I really think the whole "testicular size" arguements come from food animals and bull testicles and they are clouded quite a bit.