Author Topic: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer  (Read 4105 times)

pedro01

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The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« on: September 20, 2008, 09:17:57 PM »
I'm confused.

So - generally speaking, the IRS gives tax money to the Federal Reserve which is why when the Fed gives someone money, it's taxpayers dollars at play.

So - the Federal Reserve lends $85 Billion to AIG at 11% per annum. If AIG fails, I presume the FED would be first in line in the bankruptcy break up of all AIG assets.

Seems like either way, the Federal Reserve can't lose. They can either make 11% or get their capital back.

So - seeing as the Federal Reserve is a privately owned company that pays dividends to it's shareholders (many of which are overseas) - how much of this 11% will actually get back to the taxpayer ?

Seems to me that a private company has just gotten into a no-lose situation on the back of US taxpayers whilst the US taxpayers don't get much out of it.

Am I missing something here ?

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2008, 09:52:52 PM »
I'm confused.

So - generally speaking, the IRS gives tax money to the Federal Reserve which is why when the Fed gives someone money, it's taxpayers dollars at play.

So - the Federal Reserve lends $85 Billion to AIG at 11% per annum. If AIG fails, I presume the FED would be first in line in the bankruptcy break up of all AIG assets.

Seems like either way, the Federal Reserve can't lose. They can either make 11% or get their capital back.

So - seeing as the Federal Reserve is a privately owned company that pays dividends to it's shareholders (many of which are overseas) - how much of this 11% will actually get back to the taxpayer ?

Seems to me that a private company has just gotten into a no-lose situation on the back of US taxpayers whilst the US taxpayers don't get much out of it.

Am I missing something here ?

Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, don't it?

24KT

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2008, 11:23:39 PM »
Nope, that's pretty much how it works. Toss a coin.
Heads, ...the Fed wins; Tails, ...the taxpayer loses.  :D
w

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2008, 04:34:15 AM »
The FED is not a privately held company.  It's a group of private banks i.e. JP Morgan Chase etc.  And no you are VERY confused.  The Government doesn't give the FED tax money.  The private banks create an accounting entry in their books thereby "creating money out of thin air" in which they give to the government in the form of a "check" in return for bonds i.e. government IOU's.  But the kicker is they also charge the government compound interest on money they created out of thin air.  Hence why we will never be able to pay the national debt off.  It just keeps accumulating because we keep borrowing from the FED i.e. private banks who create the money out of nothing.  If the government was allowed to print its own money it could buy back its own bonds and do a host of other things and not be forced to pay compound interest which is why nothing will change unless we give our government to Constintutional right to not only coin money but print paper money as well.  The Founding Fathers fucked up by not allowing the Constitution to give power of Congress to print ALL MONEY paper, coins whatever.

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2008, 04:35:44 AM »
Here's a little history for you all.........

That is the root of the problem we have today - our entire money supply is debt. I'm advocating returning to what the American colonists did - issued their own money, debt-free. They defied the British, who insisted in the payment of taxes in gold the colonists didn't have. Had they paid in gold, they would have had to borrow it from the British bankers and would have wound up heavily in debt to them. We would have remained a colonial vassal state, no different from other Third World vassals. But the intrepid colonists defied the British and insisted on issuing their own money. They went to war over it. However, the British heavily counterfeited the American paper money during the war, and it became seriously devalued. Besides being counterfeited, it had to compete with other more established currencies, just as Third World currencies must today. The Founding Fathers were so afraid of paper money after that that they left it out of the Constitution altogether. However, the government had no money to pay its debts, and there were farmers and soldiers rioting right outside the Constitutional Convention insisting on getting paid. They wanted their paper money back. Hamilton therefore resorted to the ruse of letting a private bank issue paper banknotes, pretend they were backed by gold (they were 90% counterfeit, since the U.S. Bank had far too little gold to back all their notes), and lend them to the government. Jefferson eventually saw through this ruse and tried to retrieve the power to create money from "bold and bankrupt adventurers merely pretending to have money," but to no avail. We've been on the British private central banking system ever since. Gold was essential to that system; it provided the cover that made the banknotes look "sound." How are you going to convert our $12 trillion money supply into gold? Where are you going to get the gold? If you declare other money worthless, what is the government going to buy the gold with? It's a mathematically impossible proposal.

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2008, 04:38:17 AM »
Commodity money is primitive money, only slightly higher that barter. Gold and silver are not monies, they are commodities used as money, especially in foreign trade.

Real honest money of high utility and prosperity to a society (economy) is fiat money, or money that takes origin in the law, and is valued by it's stamp, or designated denomination. What is of paramount importance is whether the money is issued and regulated publicly or privately, and whether it is free of interest or cost to the public or carries a debt burden. Publicly issued money would have to come from governments, private money from banks. Publicly issued interest-free money benefits all, private interest bearing money benefits the bankers, commodity-based money benefits those who own the commodities.


I'm not being rude but you like most people have no clue how "money" is even created in the world/U.S. 

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2008, 10:03:46 AM »
Can you give us a source of your info. I'll try to find and post a video that pretty much sums up what the first post says. At this posint I'm not even sure whats true and what isnt. At least not untill I have some food and a coffee.  ;D

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2008, 02:38:57 PM »
Can you give us a source of your info. I'll try to find and post a video that pretty much sums up what the first post says. At this posint I'm not even sure whats true and what isnt. At least not untill I have some food and a coffee.  ;D

It's from the book Web of Debt by Ellen Brown go to the reviews on Amazon.  But the fact that the FED creates the money out of thin air, buys government bonds/IOUs, and then "lends the money" back to the government at interest does not need to be sourced.  That is common knowledge.  I suggest you read the following:
The Lost Science of Money by Zarlenga
The Creature from Jekylll Island
Web of Debt by Ellen Brown
and watch the Money Masters on Youtube. 

The Government doesn't loan any tax money to the FED.  It's the complete opposite.  The only thing the government does is physically created the money on printing presses once the private banks have decided to create the accounting entry i.e. the credit (debt).  Our entire financial system is a debt based system from the beginning of when the money is even created.  That's why we will never pay it back.  It's a scam. 

24KT

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2008, 03:00:53 PM »
The US Gov has the ability to print it's own money, it just doesn't. That was turned over to the Federal Reserve.
w

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2008, 03:11:13 PM »
The US Gov has the ability to print it's own money, it just doesn't. That was turned over to the Federal Reserve.

The U.S. Government only had/has the power to "coin money".  It was specifically left out of the Constitution for the Government to be able to print paper notes or control our fiat system of money creation.  Did you not just read what I posted? 

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2008, 03:34:10 PM »
Here's a video similar to the one I'm looking for. Now, I don't agree with this representation totally and I'm not sure your interpretation is 100% accurate either because some of your sources are considered CT material, (not that I frown on it personally  ;D, but I'm trying to be as objective as possible).

Anyway answers are all over the place for this video, so now I'm more confused than ever. Anybody else want to give it a go?



What's missing from his little example??? How the money gets back to the taxpayer! It stops as he shows money bouncing back between the FED and the "failed" business. He didn't even feel it necessary to show us getting anything out of this. Thanks for the explanation. Now I'm really angry.

This is wrong. these guys dont know what they are talking about. The IRS is a sub unit of the FED. The IRS money you send every year doesnt go to the treasury. They hold ZERO dollars ever. The money goes straight to the FED. Moreover it is applied to interest first. Interest? Yes the interest tax payers owe the FED for borrowing thier money. WTF. Is this true? It is . The fed creates money out of thin air then buys Tbills at interest. the entire national debt is made of INTEREST owed.


stormshadow

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2008, 03:47:43 PM »
The U.S. Government only had/has the power to "coin money".  It was specifically left out of the Constitution for the Government to be able to print paper notes or control our fiat system of money creation.  Did you not just read what I posted? 

Correct.  Nice to see someone else that is educated on this topic.

I have some questions for you.  I have even spoken on the phone with the man that makes these Youtube videos http://www.youtube.com/user/lorax2013 explaining banking, and he was unable to answer my questions:

1.  Government sells a 1 million dollar bond to the Federal Reserve.  The Bond is the asset, and the Fed creates the deposit check (liability) for 1 million and issues it to the government at interest.  Of that 1 million dollar asset (the US Bond), and assuming a 10% reserve requirement,  Can they create an additional:

900,000 or 9 million?

2.  A commercial bank borrows 1 million directly from the Federal Reserve.  Can they create an additional:

900,000 or 9 million

3.  You deposit 100,000 into a checking account at your local bank.  Do they

a)  Keep 10,000 and have up to 90,000 for new loans
b)  Keep all 100,000 and have the ability to create up to 90,000 for new loans
c)  Keep all 100,000 and have the ability to create up to 1 Million for new loans


4.  When you go to get a "loan" from the bank, and give them your promissory note for 100,000 (bank asset) and they credit you with the offsetting liability for 100,000, are they able to:

a)  Use your promissory note to create up to 90,000 for new loans
b)  Use your promissory note to create up to 900,000 for new loans


Here is how G. Edward Griffen explains it in his book.  He is consistent, until he talks about the discount window.  At that point he states that a bank can borrow 1 Million from the Fed, and then use that to create 9 million in new loans.

Everywhere else he states that a 1 Million dollar deposit would allow them to create 900,000 in new loans.

Which is it?

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2008, 04:39:46 PM »
Here's a video similar to the one I'm looking for. Now, I don't agree with this representation totally and I'm not sure your interpretation is 100% accurate either because some of your sources are considered CT material, (not that I frown on it personally  ;D, but I'm trying to be as objective as possible).

Anyway answers are all over the place for this video, so now I'm more confused than ever. Anybody else want to give it a go?



What's missing from his little example??? How the money gets back to the taxpayer! It stops as he shows money bouncing back between the FED and the "failed" business. He didn't even feel it necessary to show us getting anything out of this. Thanks for the explanation. Now I'm really angry.

This is wrong. these guys dont know what they are talking about. The IRS is a sub unit of the FED. The IRS money you send every year doesnt go to the treasury. They hold ZERO dollars ever. The money goes straight to the FED. Moreover it is applied to interest first. Interest? Yes the interest tax payers owe the FED for borrowing thier money. WTF. Is this true? It is . The fed creates money out of thin air then buys Tbills at interest. the entire national debt is made of INTEREST owed.



WTF are you talking about CT Material?  Ellen Brown is a JD and a VERY intelligent woman why don't you buy her book and read it.  The only person that MIGHT be considered CT is Griffin.  But if you read his fucking book it's all FACTS.  Sorry but it fucking pisses me off when people bring up the CT line of bullshit.  Ron Paul is considered "CT" by many and he's a fucking U.S. Congressman.   My god it's like anything that isn't on CNN or FoxNews is CT? 

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2008, 04:43:46 PM »
That moron you posted from CNN just said the Federal Reserve is part of the Government.  That's completely FALSE!  The banks that make up the actual Federal Reserve banks are in fact private banks and financial institutions i.e. Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase etc. 

MB_722

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2008, 04:46:50 PM »
WTF are you talking about CT Material?  Ellen Brown is a JD and a VERY intelligent woman why don't you buy her book and read it.  The only person that MIGHT be considered CT is Griffin.  But if you read his fucking book it's all FACTS.  Sorry but it fucking pisses me off when people bring up the CT line of bullshit.  Ron Paul is considered "CT" by many and he's a fucking U.S. Congressman.   My god it's like anything that isn't on CNN or FoxNews is CT? 

can this be considered a meltdown? hahaha

there is alot of questionable info floating around. You should be aware of that.


MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2008, 05:48:02 PM »
can this be considered a meltdown? hahaha

there is alot of questionable info floating around. You should be aware of that.



Consider it whatever you want.  Of course there is a lot of questionable material floating around.  But if you do your research you can sift through it pretty easily.  CNN and mainstream media is hardly a bastion of factual analysis.  If you were to say Alex Jones is a CT nut then yes I would agree with you.  But even his accusations/beliefs can be verified and thoroughly researched.  It's gets old hearing people use the term "CT" as some sort of default argument.  Like oh you are ProChoice and care about protecting the environment so that makes you a liberal? 

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2008, 10:06:46 PM »
WTF are you talking about CT Material?  Ellen Brown is a JD and a VERY intelligent woman why don't you buy her book and read it.  The only person that MIGHT be considered CT is Griffin.  But if you read his fucking book it's all FACTS.  Sorry but it fucking pisses me off when people bring up the CT line of bullshit.  Ron Paul is considered "CT" by many and he's a fucking U.S. Congressman.   My god it's like anything that isn't on CNN or FoxNews is CT? 

Christ dude, calm down. I probably post more Ron Paul information on here than anyone else combined. When it comes to how money gets transferred around between the Fed, the Treasury, the IRS and the people and who knows who else, it's anyones guess. I'm just trying to be objective and I'm not defending anyone.

Sometimes I agree with you but try to breath a bit before you post, many times when  I read something from you, it's like you're ready to have a heart attack.

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 12:40:53 AM »
Christ dude, calm down. I probably post more Ron Paul information on here than anyone else combined. When it comes to how money gets transferred around between the Fed, the Treasury, the IRS and the people and who knows who else, it's anyones guess. I'm just trying to be objective and I'm not defending anyone.

Sometimes I agree with you but try to breath a bit before you post, many times when  I read something from you, it's like you're ready to have a heart attack.

LOL.  Yes I  know.  You are an avid Ron Paul supporter so why would you label what I posted "CT"?  Ron Paul is very much an avid supporter of Ed Griffin and his views on the FED.  Just don't understand why someone like you especially would consider that conspiracy theory. 

TechnoViking

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 02:33:02 AM »
Alex Jones is a government plant...

shootfighter1

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 06:06:42 AM »
McMannus, whats your background/education?  Economics/Business/Finance?
Good reads.  The vast majority of people do not understand this topic.

stormshadow

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 08:47:15 AM »
Alex Jones is a government plant...

Alex Jones is the Rush Limbaugh for the CT's

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2008, 10:14:53 AM »
McMannus, whats your background/education?  Economics/Business/Finance?
Good reads.  The vast majority of people do not understand this topic.

BS with minors in history and economics.  You really won't find most of this information being taught in college.  I didn't learn the real background on the FED/Money/history behind it until I researched it on my own.  I studied Austrian/Keynesian economics and all that bullshit in college but those are all just economic "systems"/ideologies and don't really deal with the concept of "money", especially how it pertains to our 21st century economy.  I really would suggest anyone interested to read Web of Debt by Ellen Brown.  Just look at the reviews on Amazon and it will give you an idea of what the book is all about.  Also if you can find it The Lost Science of Money by Zalenga is a great book but mysteriously it's out of print on Amazon but if you go to his website you can get it.   

To me the most fascinating part of all this is how our founding fathers fought so hard, (especially Jefferson) and in the end lost out to the Bank of England.  Money/economics is what the entire revolution was all about.  Is it going to take another violent revolution to get rid of the FED? 

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2008, 10:21:03 AM »
Alex Jones is a government plant...

Coming from someone who's a staunch beacon of analytical thought right?  ::)  Alex Jones maybe a conspiracy theorist but a lot of what he says is true and can be verified with a little background research.  Take the Bohemian Grove.  Many people would toss it up as just some dumb gathering of old rich, elitist men who dress up in costumes, have these fake little ceremonies etc.  What's the big deal?  Well it's fucking weird.  The entire thing is just weird and sketchy when you dig further into it's history, meaning etc.  Does satanic worship take place there?  Have people been murdered there?  Do the men get together and practice pedophilia and homosexuality?  We live in a sick sick world and it wouldn't surprise me.  If you research the Franklin Cover Up (there is a new book coming out I believe this month) it's a very fucked up story and believe what you want.......but would it really surprise anyone if that shit goes on or the story is true?  Probably not. 

MB_722

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2008, 10:51:32 AM »
Yes A.Jones is a plant or manipulated by the intelligence agencies therefore manipulating you.

Please read about PSYOPS. Not Alex Jones psyops disinfo.  ;)

stormshadow

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Re: The AIG bailout & the 11% return to the taxpayer
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2008, 03:20:51 PM »
Yes A.Jones is a plant or manipulated by the intelligence agencies therefore manipulating you.

Please read about PSYOPS. Not Alex Jones psyops disinfo.  ;)

Agreed, he no more a beacon of truth than is Glen Beck