Author Topic: Still voting for McCain or Obama?  (Read 1114 times)

Bindare_Dundat

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12227
  • KILL CENTRAL BANKS, BUY BITCOIN.
Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« on: September 23, 2008, 08:11:22 AM »
Listening to Obama and McCain talk about the current financial situation is laughable. Both attack each other and make accusations about having lobbyists on their team from these financial institutions that caved in and both talk about "plans" they have to improve the situation.

But in all seriousness, NEITHER of them talked about this looming crisis during the debates months ago. NEITHER of them have a clear plan because NEITHER of them talk about  some of the root causes of the problem. NEITHER of them have even mentioned the Federal Reserves part in the housing bubble and that interest rates should have been raised. NEITHER of them talk about  having a sound monetary system or fiat money at all. They don't talk about the manipulation of the markets, the PPT, etc.... Both  want bigger government, both will spend money we don't have and one even thought the fundamnentals of the economy were sound a week or so ago.

To anyone still considering voting for either of these two individuals, I'm curious to know why you would put your faith in a candidate who couldn't even see the biggest financial crisis of our lifetime coming down the road? If they weren't aware of this financial implosion that some saw years ago, how could they possibly get anything else worked out right?

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2008, 08:13:26 AM »
U have to consider their voting records and their history...which guy will let the chips fall and which guy will want government intervention, and then vote accordingly
L

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2008, 08:17:07 AM »
Why was the impending mortgage scandal not addressed?  I know that before his fall, Eliot Spitzer was hot on the trail of the Bush administration's hand in making the scandal possible.

It's hard to believe that no one else in either candidate's camp saw this coming.

Bindare_Dundat

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12227
  • KILL CENTRAL BANKS, BUY BITCOIN.
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2008, 08:20:18 AM »
U have to consider their voting records and their history...which guy will let the chips fall and which guy will want government intervention, and then vote accordingly

I don't live in the past, I want a president with vision and one that can see into the immediate future. This isnt some little problem, this is HUGE and both misssed it. Neither candidate displayed that they are capable of seeing the obvious.  So why vote for either one, when there are other choices?

Hugo Chavez

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 31866
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2008, 08:21:25 AM »
fact, it's going to be one of the two...

neocon flys... neocon flys...  who are they swarming around...

Bindare_Dundat

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12227
  • KILL CENTRAL BANKS, BUY BITCOIN.
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2008, 08:23:54 AM »
fact, it's going to be one of the two...

neocon flys... neocon flys...  who are they swarming around...

  With everything you learned these last couple of days, why would YOU vote for either one?

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2008, 08:37:44 AM »
I don't live in the past, I want a president with vision and one that can see into the immediate future. This isnt some little problem, this is HUGE and both misssed it. Neither candidate displayed that they are capable of seeing the obvious.  So why vote for either one, when there are other choices?

If u don't look at at the past, regardless of what it is, ur doomed, period.
L

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2008, 08:43:37 AM »
Why was the impending mortgage scandal not addressed?  I know that before his fall, Eliot Spitzer was hot on the trail of the Bush administration's hand in making the scandal possible.

It's hard to believe that no one else in either candidate's camp saw this coming.


Decker, ur blamming this on Bush?   The Dems made it easier fro minorities and others to get loans they had no hope of paying back. They ran companies that made those loans possible, Clinton pushed for more loans like this by overhauling Carater's own urban investment legislation.

 "Gramm’s gravest alleged sin is pushing the 1999 Gramm-Leach-Bliley bank-deregulation bill. Barack Obama has identified the legislation as ground zero of the financial implosion, the deregulatory predicate for Wall Street’s excess."


The law allowed commercial and investment banks to consolidate, repealing the New Deal-era Glass-Steagall Act that prevented banks from offering customers insurance, investment or commercial banking services. Gramm-Leach-Bliley tore down the artificial walls between financial institutions. Was this the disastrous mistake that it is now portrayed as on the stump? No.

One, Democrats in good standing supported the final bill. Robert Rubin and Larry Summers, Clinton Treasury officials whom Obama relies on for advice, supported it. Joe Biden voted for it, it passed the Senate with 90 votes, and President Clinton signed it. Heaven knows, Washington can make bipartisan mistakes, but if the bill were so obviously the road to financial perdition, presumably some of these Democrats much keener to regulate the economy than Gramm would have voted “no.”

Two, the bill was a foregone conclusion. Europe already had so-called universal banking in which financial institutions could undertake varied operations. U.S. banks were finding loopholes in the law to keep up with foreign competitors, and increasingly bumped up against the 60-year-old regulatory constraints. The Gramm bill just blessed the world as it was already evolving.

Three, the legislation appears to have alleviated the current crisis rather than making it worse. Big, diversified financial institutions have been weathering the crunch better than anyone else and have occasionally swooped in to lessen the pain. Bank of America acquired Merrill Lynch, which would have been impossible prior to Gramm’s deregulation. Otherwise, Merrill would either have gone under or been bailed out by the taxpayers. Similarly, J.P. Morgan wouldn’t have taken over Bear Stearns, and Barclays Bank wouldn’t be considering buying Lehman Brothers.

Please don't lay this at Bush's feet. There is a long history associated with this disaster and u Libs will have to own up to ur share of the blame.


L

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2008, 08:44:17 AM »
  With everything you learned these last couple of days, why would YOU vote for either one?
It's pick one or do not vote.  

There are other concerns than the mortgage scandal.  


headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2008, 08:46:42 AM »
Sure...much more then this to base any decision on.
L

Hugo Chavez

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 31866
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2008, 08:50:53 AM »
  With everything you learned these last couple of days, why would YOU vote for either one?
I thought I just told you.

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2008, 09:19:18 AM »


Decker, ur blamming this on Bush?   The Dems made it easier fro minorities and others to get loans they had no hope of paying back. They ran companies that made those loans possible, Clinton pushed for more loans like this by overhauling Carater's own urban investment legislation.

 "Gramm’s gravest alleged sin is pushing the 1999 Gramm-Leach-Bliley bank-deregulation bill. Barack Obama has identified the legislation as ground zero of the financial implosion, the deregulatory predicate for Wall Street’s excess."


The law allowed commercial and investment banks to consolidate, repealing the New Deal-era Glass-Steagall Act that prevented banks from offering customers insurance, investment or commercial banking services. Gramm-Leach-Bliley tore down the artificial walls between financial institutions. Was this the disastrous mistake that it is now portrayed as on the stump? No.

One, Democrats in good standing supported the final bill. Robert Rubin and Larry Summers, Clinton Treasury officials whom Obama relies on for advice, supported it. Joe Biden voted for it, it passed the Senate with 90 votes, and President Clinton signed it. Heaven knows, Washington can make bipartisan mistakes, but if the bill were so obviously the road to financial perdition, presumably some of these Democrats much keener to regulate the economy than Gramm would have voted “no.”

Two, the bill was a foregone conclusion. Europe already had so-called universal banking in which financial institutions could undertake varied operations. U.S. banks were finding loopholes in the law to keep up with foreign competitors, and increasingly bumped up against the 60-year-old regulatory constraints. The Gramm bill just blessed the world as it was already evolving.

Three, the legislation appears to have alleviated the current crisis rather than making it worse. Big, diversified financial institutions have been weathering the crunch better than anyone else and have occasionally swooped in to lessen the pain. Bank of America acquired Merrill Lynch, which would have been impossible prior to Gramm’s deregulation. Otherwise, Merrill would either have gone under or been bailed out by the taxpayers. Similarly, J.P. Morgan wouldn’t have taken over Bear Stearns, and Barclays Bank wouldn’t be considering buying Lehman Brothers.

Please don't lay this at Bush's feet. There is a long history associated with this disaster and u Libs will have to own up to ur share of the blame.

There is a large segment of society that lives beyond its means.  The Bush people know that.

What can government do about lending practices geared towards those living beyond their means or those on financial fringe of home ownership in the first place?

Ta Da!  Predatory Lending oversight laws.  Those do the trick.  Those reign in any attempt to fleece the flock, so to speak.

Predatory Mortgage Lending:
Predatory Mortgage Lending is the process of making high-cost home loans without regard to the borrower's ability to pay it back, which causes the home loan more often than not to end in foreclosure. In addition, predatory loans may contain features like credit life insurance or transactional fees that increase the cost of the loan. Sub-prime mortgages are loans that have high interest rates and fees that are made to borrowers deemed by lenders to be higher credit risks. For example, the prime interest rate for a home mortgage in January of the year 2000 was 8.375% for borrowers with the best credit rating. A sub-prime loan may carry an interest rate of 9% or 10% and sometimes a rate as high as 18% for borrowers with less-than-perfect credit qualifications.

Who Do They Target?
Predatory mortgage lenders target borrowers that have substantial equity in their homes and that have low or fixed incomes. This assures a predatory lender that if the borrower defaults on the loan and the home goes into foreclosure, the lender will recover its' losses through the sale of the home. By focusing on homeowners who have sizable equity in their homes, predatory lenders tend to target elderly homeowners. Predatory lenders also seek out homeowners with limited knowledge about finance or who have limited English skills. Consequently, predatory lenders tend to target low- to moderate-income households or areas with non-English speaking ethnic groups. Many times, these areas are minority-populated areas which are underserved by traditional banks.

Solution:
These practices must be stopped by strict state laws which prohibit practices of predatory mortgage lending such as huge balloon payment requirements and prepayment penalties as well as APR rates that increase over time.
http://www.copirg.org/financial-privacy-security/stop-predatory-lenders/predatory-lending-fact-sheet

Not only did the Bush administration do nothing to protect consumers, it embarked on an aggressive and unprecedented campaign to prevent states from protecting their residents from the very problems to which the federal government was turning a blind eye.

Let me explain: The administration accomplished this feat through an obscure federal agency called the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC). The OCC has been in existence since the Civil War. Its mission is to ensure the fiscal soundness of national banks. For 140 years, the OCC examined the books of national banks to make sure they were balanced, an important but uncontroversial function. But a few years ago, for the first time in its history, the OCC was used as a tool against consumers.

In 2003, during the height of the predatory lending crisis, the OCC invoked a clause from the 1863 National Bank Act to issue formal opinions preempting all state predatory lending laws, thereby rendering them inoperative. The OCC also promulgated new rules that prevented states from enforcing any of their own consumer protection laws against national banks. The federal government's actions were so egregious and so unprecedented that all 50 state attorneys general, and all 50 state banking superintendents, actively fought the new rules.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/13/AR2008021302783_pf.html

As you can see HH, what good are state predatory lending laws if the Bush Adm preempts them and permits predatory lending to go on unchecked?  Your attempt to lay this at the feet of democrats falls way short b/c your info does not address the heart of the matter--anti-predatory lending laws.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2008, 09:25:02 AM »
Decker....again. Its not governments fault that stupid people do stupid things. These people got burnt because the Dems laid the foundation for this crap in the first place....ur logic falls short. Or maybe because ur a lib, u think gov should regulate everything.
L

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2008, 09:28:33 AM »
Decker....again. Its not governments fault that stupid people do stupid things. These people got burnt because the Dems laid the foundation for this crap in the first place....ur logic falls short. Or maybe because ur a lib, u think gov should regulate everything.
Yes, government should regulate everything.  Well, maybe not everything.  We could start with predatory lending practices.  You know, a crime?

Why did Bush let it happen by removing any sane semblance of responsible oversight?

You have to ask yourself that question HH.

B/c in this case, setting the table for stupid people is a crime--it's called predatory lending.  Why did Bush make it so?

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2008, 09:34:13 AM »
U want Uncle Sam to regulate everything but u whine about the Patriot Act. Ur blaming this on a practice established by the Dems in order to allow people who had no chance to pay back loans, get loans. What all this does is allow the dems to maintain a voting base. Poor people will now turn to the gov to take more of my money, for being stupid. Sorry dude, pack ur shit and move out, go back to renting or work harder and get a normal loan. And who this crap really affects is normal people like me who will have to give pints of blood for home loans that used to take 3 days. So I'm bailing some douchebag out and causing myself all kinds of headaches as well. How is this fear. More liberal bs, thinking with the heart instead of the brain.
L

240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102396
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2008, 09:37:18 AM »
Hh6,

you are a lifetime military man.  You understand that letting uneducated, inexperienced idiots decide Iraq war strategy would be stupid, right?  You understand that smarter people are selected to make decisions.  Libs would end war tomorrow, right?  You don't give them that decicion making power.

So why would the govt give 20 million people the power to borrow $300k, when they know that the majority of them WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PAY?  They knew.  Govt promised to back the banks. 

Just like you don't leave a kid in the kitchen with a pot of boiling water, your knife set, and a bottle of liquor... you sure don't give a walmart part-timer a loan of $300k (and you don't do it for 20 million of them).

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2008, 09:47:53 AM »
U want Uncle Sam to regulate everything but u whine about the Patriot Act. Ur blaming this on a practice established by the Dems in order to allow people who had no chance to pay back loans, get loans. What all this does is allow the dems to maintain a voting base. Poor people will now turn to the gov to take more of my money, for being stupid. Sorry dude, pack ur shit and move out, go back to renting or work harder and get a normal loan. And who this crap really affects is normal people like me who will have to give pints of blood for home loans that used to take 3 days. So I'm bailing some douchebag out and causing myself all kinds of headaches as well. How is this fear. More liberal bs, thinking with the heart instead of the brain.
You are changing the subject.  What's wrong with supplemental programs that help those on the financial margins buy a home?

You are overstating or misstating the democratic plan for homeownership and you are mistakenly attributing the scandal to the democrats.

How do any of your protests justify the calcluated measure of the Bush Adm to pre-empt state oversight laws for predatory lending with federal laws which are then left unenforced resulting in a really free market for illegal predatory lending?

Rimbaud

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9884
  • There can be only one.
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2008, 09:58:37 AM »
All this arguing back & forth about who's fault it is makes no sense & in fact it really doesn't matter. The damage is done & the importent thing is trying to fix the problem.

Say my house burns down. Would it make sense to argue wether it was the short in the toaster or short in the dryer that started the fire? No. I need to just look at fixing the house.

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2008, 10:17:15 AM »
All this arguing back & forth about who's fault it is makes no sense & in fact it really doesn't matter. The damage is done & the importent thing is trying to fix the problem.

Say my house burns down. Would it make sense to argue wether it was the short in the toaster or short in the dryer that started the fire? No. I need to just look at fixing the house.
Apportioning blame is one way of fleshing the problem out so that it does not happen again.

I'm not blaming you for anything but isn't it interesting how many rightwing supporters want to forgo any accountability for the Bush years?

Let history judge us....they say.

Fuck that I say. 

We have a criminal court that's more than up to the task to do the the judging today.

Rimbaud

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9884
  • There can be only one.
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2008, 10:21:10 AM »
Apportioning blame is one way of fleshing the problem out so that it does not happen again.

I'm not blaming you for anything but isn't it interesting how many rightwing supporters want to forgo any accountability for the Bush years?

Let history judge us....they say.

Fuck that I say. 

We have a criminal court that's more than up to the task to do the the judging today.

Red - I agree with you 100%. I just think the problem needs to be fixed now & then we can sort out the blame later.

Blue - I don't think you are. I'm just sick of seeing blame tossed back & forth on both sides. I would consider myself an independent (note: never voted for a dem or repub for president) but I think the country's been pushed in the wrong direction the last eight years.

Bindare_Dundat

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12227
  • KILL CENTRAL BANKS, BUY BITCOIN.
Re: Still voting for McCain or Obama?
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2008, 06:02:31 PM »


There are other concerns than the mortgage scandal.  



Yeah, but if you can't see the obvious what good are you at any other problem?