Clen and T3 Stack? Please Advise...

[tbombz]

Unlike you, I don't know everything and I know it. 


Haha. Dude, you have me all wrong. i would love to know everything. thats why i ask so may questions. maybe soemtimes your misinterpreting my way of learning as "arguing". but for me asking questions and looking for a more detailed response is how i learn.

I think it's annoying, but slightly funny that you are arguing with Arnold about diet.  Do you really think you know more than he does?
ummm. well how can you quantify "how much you know" i certainly think that th epoints i am makin in me & arnolds DISCUSSION (thats what it is.. i personally consider arnold a friend and somebody who has helped me out in the past and somebody i woudl help out - if i could , without a moments hesitation) are certainly valid and worthy of taking notice too. i learn from the best in whatever i want to know, and personally, while when i was a newB i did think palumbo was gold, now i realize his mehods can greatly be improved upon.

[shadowpilot]

Alright, I finally got to use the internet again... It seems I missed out on all the excitement.

So... first off... Yes there is ALOT of food options available to me... (during chow hall hours) I wake up at 8pm and don't eat till 930 because thats the first chance I have to get some food... Its about a mile to the nearest place to eat (which happens to be next to where I work) However the only thing available to eat at that time is Sandwich's or wrap's.

So to limit carbs, ill eat a wrap. and cut out the cheese. throw on some mustard...
* Does the meats matter? There is a lot of different stuff to pick from, Tuna, Turkey, Ham, Roast Beef, Pastrami.. I usually get Turkey or Tuna, The reason I'm asking is because someone told me that I should try to avoid the processed meats.

the 1130pm meal, I have the option of getting fried eggs, hardboiled eggs, more sandwich meat... I usually grab some ham or turkey and chop it up and throw it on my salad... (Ill drop the low fat dressings) is Caesar good? or ranch? or do i have to drop it all completely?

Breakfast is the most extensive meal I can get, if there is a breakfast food you can name I can probably get it. Is cottage cheese good for you? I know it has protein. Also with Eggs... There is Fried eggs, Scrambled powder eggs, and hard boiled eggs... Which is best for me? They also have ham, sausage, and bacon available but I don't get it. should I? Also I can throw in a scoop of nuts, we do have those. And I will drop cearal all together.

Then after my workout I have access to some food again. My options consist of sandwich, macaroni salad, potato salad, chips, fruit, cereal.... Nothing really good for me, I have been just getting the sandwich and eating it without bread. not really filling either, but its probably best not to eat a lot before I go to sleep.

I know this is a bodybuilding forum but I'm trying to improve my run also. Does anyone here do much of that? if so let me know I have more questions running related.

Last but not least... Drinks...

I know I should drink LOTS of water.. a gallon a day is what people say.
What is your thoughts on water flavor packs IE: Crystal Light
How about Diet drinks? 0 carbs, 0 Cal's? should I avoid them or am I good to drink em?

*** Side note, I'm taking daily vitamins, and fish oils, I have a tub of glutamines I haven't really been using that often.

I guess to really sum it up, I will be coming home later this month and have a chance to buy whatever I need and send it to myself. because I will be coming back for 9 more months. And I would love to get the MOST out of the next 9 months as possible. Ideally I would like to drop my bodyfat% to 15 or below, and then once I get "fit", I want to start lifting and get big the right way. But until I get this bodyfat and weight under control I cant lift without being demoted.

Thanks for all the tips and support BTW.

[tbombz]

Now, as far as Dave's guys coming in the most shredded or not; even the people who don't like Dave or don't like his diets, most of these people will not argue the fact that his guys almost always come in with better condition then anyone else. For the last 3 years his competitors have dominated the national stage; both male and female. If you want to argue facts, look at the placements in the 5 big national shows the past 3 years and compare who had more top 5 finishers between Dave and the other guys. Now if Dave has more top 5 finishers then Joe Blow, no matter how much you disagree with his style of dieting, you cannot deny the fact that it is producing quality show placement, so there must be something to it.
you know he is very hit and miss. and maybe thats because some of his guys dont listen to him. i think certainly his method of prep is effective and will create a 'shredded' physique. no doubt. but i dont think its ideal for most people.


But look at it this way, take the Golden Years of bodybuilding, and compare it to say the 1990's, the guys in the 90's did not diet at all like the guys in the 60's and 70's, not even remotely. Now what the guys did in the 60's and 70's worked; they came i ripped and shredded. But low and behold, the guys in the 90's came in even more ripped and shredded, better conditioned, lower body fat and carrying more muscle. Would you say that because they dieted differently then the 70"s guys that they had it all wrong? Doubtful.  Here you are right again - the conditioning of the 1990's was most likely due to drugs than it was do diet knowledge.

Now, flash forward to the present, more and more guys are using the low carb moderate fat approach and this number seems to be increasing every year. More and more of these guys are getting top placements in shows, some are Palumbo's guys, some aren't. So there must be something to it. i think more and more are switching to low carb high fat because guys are starting to learn  A LITTLE BIT, but not alot. like, most guys now know how carbs fats and proteins all wrk and how insulin and glucagon and gh all effect metabolism. an elementary knowledge of these basic concepts = low carb diet. (( depleted glycogen, low insulin = fat metabolism. )


Last thing, you knock this style of dieting a lot. Myself, I was very skeptical at first, I was nervous that I would lose more muscle then needed dieting this way. But after a time, I saw what it was producing, and I decided to give it a try for myself. I decided that if it didn't work it would not be the end of the world, after all it's not like trying a diet and it failing means your life is over, you will recover. But guess what happened? It worked, it worked better then any style of diet I've used. I did the low fat and carb cycling for years, yes I could get in very good shape this way, but not near like I can on a high protein, low carb, moderate fat diet. You come in leaner, you come in harder, and that's pretty much the whole point.  if someone has tried several methods, and they find a certain method works best for them - nthey should never listent o what someone says baout ttheir method being less than ideal. because everybodies different and youve got to do what works for you.  

that being said, for myself and most guys that i know, the most effectiive diet is high protien moderate carb low fat. i always look my best with  this kind of diet. for me, low carb doesnt produce half the physique that low fat produces.

[tbombz]

So to limit carbs, ill eat a wrap. and cut out the cheese. throw on some mustard...
* Does the meats matter? There is a lot of different stuff to pick from, Tuna, Turkey, Ham, Roast Beef, Pastrami.. I usually get Turkey or Tuna, The reason I'm asking is because someone told me that I should try to avoid the processed meats.

yes avoid processed meats - they are high in fat. just eat dead animal. its that simple.


I know this is a bodybuilding forum but I'm trying to improve my run also. Does anyone here do much of that? if so let me know I have more questions running related.

one thing all of us are all going to agree on is that running is not conducive to a bodybuilding physique - so i doubt any body willl be able to help you thre. try the training board, maybe somebody there will know.

Last but not least... Drinks...

I know I should drink LOTS of water.. a gallon a day is what people say.
What is your thoughts on water flavor packs IE: Crystal Light
How about Diet drinks? 0 carbs, 0 Cal's? should I avoid them or am I good to drink em?

diet drinks are fine. may i suggest diet green tea froom lipton? i love that stuff !

[shadowpilot]

unfortunately dead animal wasn't on the menu ... lol

Maybe i should just eat tuna? scoops and scoops of tuna... ha ha

[tbombz]

unfortunately dead animal wasn't on the menu ... lol

Maybe i should just eat tuna? scoops and scoops of tuna... ha ha

yeah ! tuna is great ! just doesnt taste so great 

[Rimbaud]

yeah ! tuna is great ! just doesnt taste so great 

That's what hot sauce is for...however, that being said I still won't eat it.

[Arnold jr]

Alright, I finally got to use the internet again... It seems I missed out on all the excitement.

So... first off... Yes there is ALOT of food options available to me... (during chow hall hours) I wake up at 8pm and don't eat till 930 because thats the first chance I have to get some food... Its about a mile to the nearest place to eat (which happens to be next to where I work) However the only thing available to eat at that time is Sandwich's or wrap's.

So to limit carbs, ill eat a wrap. and cut out the cheese. throw on some mustard...
* Does the meats matter? There is a lot of different stuff to pick from, Tuna, Turkey, Ham, Roast Beef, Pastrami.. I usually get Turkey or Tuna, The reason I'm asking is because someone told me that I should try to avoid the processed meats.

the 1130pm meal, I have the option of getting fried eggs, hardboiled eggs, more sandwich meat... I usually grab some ham or turkey and chop it up and throw it on my salad... (Ill drop the low fat dressings) is Caesar good? or ranch? or do i have to drop it all completely?

Breakfast is the most extensive meal I can get, if there is a breakfast food you can name I can probably get it. Is cottage cheese good for you? I know it has protein. Also with Eggs... There is Fried eggs, Scrambled powder eggs, and hard boiled eggs... Which is best for me? They also have ham, sausage, and bacon available but I don't get it. should I? Also I can throw in a scoop of nuts, we do have those. And I will drop cearal all together.

Then after my workout I have access to some food again. My options consist of sandwich, macaroni salad, potato salad, chips, fruit, cereal.... Nothing really good for me, I have been just getting the sandwich and eating it without bread. not really filling either, but its probably best not to eat a lot before I go to sleep.

I know this is a bodybuilding forum but I'm trying to improve my run also. Does anyone here do much of that? if so let me know I have more questions running related.

Last but not least... Drinks...

I know I should drink LOTS of water.. a gallon a day is what people say.
What is your thoughts on water flavor packs IE: Crystal Light
How about Diet drinks? 0 carbs, 0 Cal's? should I avoid them or am I good to drink em?

*** Side note, I'm taking daily vitamins, and fish oils, I have a tub of glutamines I haven't really been using that often.

I guess to really sum it up, I will be coming home later this month and have a chance to buy whatever I need and send it to myself. because I will be coming back for 9 more months. And I would love to get the MOST out of the next 9 months as possible. Ideally I would like to drop my bodyfat% to 15 or below, and then once I get "fit", I want to start lifting and get big the right way. But until I get this bodyfat and weight under control I cant lift without being demoted.

Thanks for all the tips and support BTW.

Being that you're limited to what you can get I think you're doing a good job. Yes there are things you can change though.

The salad dressing, things like regular ranch or Greek are bad for you no question. What I was getting at with the Light dressings was that even though they have less fat they still have all the sugar. You need sugar free dressings or you need to let that stuff go...your pick.

*Stay away from the breakfast meats

*Any type of egg is fine as long as it's not cooked in a bunch of butter...in your case the hard boiled is probably going to be the best bet. Now if they are using non fat cooking spray to cook the other types of eggs then it doesn't matter what kind of egg you eat.

*Processed meats shouldn't be your first choice, but if that's all you got don't worry about it.

*If you're training regularly and staying active, don't worry about eating before you go to bed.

*Cottage cheese is OK, not the best or worst option.

*Any drink is fine if it has no sugar.

[shadowpilot]

Let me recap everything...

No salad dressing...
No breakfast meat
No ceareal
No Soy Milk
No breads (or other big carb sources)
No Cheese
No Fruit

So considering 2 of my 4 meals are sandwich's I can just drop the bread and eat a bunch of tuna or turkey ect.
ill throw in some eggs on the 1130pm meal with my salad, mabye some oil/vineger
last but not least breakfast... so no meats, (other then eggs) ** Do egg yolks matter? some people say not to eat them?**  So with no other meats, obviosuly no hashbrowns, biscuits and gravy, fruit. The only other thing left on the menu is Grits and oatmeal but to be on a low carb diet Im aware that I cant eat those either. Which really means id be eating a plate of eggs...

So if im eating what I listed above... with Tuna at both meals, (they usually serve at least 2 servings worth per sandwich) id be getting roughly 40g per sandwich and 6g per egg... sooo

930pm 40g
1130pm 24-30g
630am 24-30g
1130am 40g

I would only be getting 140g protein. So it looks like id have to get some whey... But to avoid the carbs... Isopure maybe? I mean how much protein do I need for weight loss? I plan on taking the T3/Clen and would like to keep as much of my muscle as possible.

Once again thanks for the advice

[Arnold jr]

Let me recap everything...

No salad dressing...
No breakfast meat
No ceareal
No Soy Milk
No breads (or other big carb sources)
No Cheese
No Fruit

So considering 2 of my 4 meals are sandwich's I can just drop the bread and eat a bunch of tuna or turkey ect.
ill throw in some eggs on the 1130pm meal with my salad, mabye some oil/vineger
last but not least breakfast... so no meats, (other then eggs) ** Do egg yolks matter? some people say not to eat them?**  So with no other meats, obviosuly no hashbrowns, biscuits and gravy, fruit. The only other thing left on the menu is Grits and oatmeal but to be on a low carb diet Im aware that I cant eat those either. Which really means id be eating a plate of eggs...

So if im eating what I listed above... with Tuna at both meals, (they usually serve at least 2 servings worth per sandwich) id be getting roughly 40g per sandwich and 6g per egg... sooo

930pm 40g
1130pm 24-30g
630am 24-30g
1130am 40g

I would only be getting 140g protein. So it looks like id have to get some whey... But to avoid the carbs... Isopure maybe? I mean how much protein do I need for weight loss? I plan on taking the T3/Clen and would like to keep as much of my muscle as possible.

Once again thanks for the advice

Getting some Isolate to supplement with would be a good idea.

Also, eating the egg yolks is a good idea. 4-5 yolks would be fine per meal. Yolks have a lot of healthy fats in them.

Obviously you do not have a lot of good fat source foods available to you right now, in that case I would opt for a slightly different approach. In this case, eating a moderate amount of good carbs along with your protein is going to have to be the way you go due to availability. Choose the oats and grits for this over bread and other carb source foods. If you have access to rice and maybe some sweet potatoes these would be good choices to.

In the meals you eat the egg yolks, leave the carbs out. In the other meals, add in some carbs...since you're not getting a lot of fat, you are going to need some source of energy form food. You may have to play with this a little bit. Right now you have 4 meals per day that you can get in, try adding in carbs to 2 of those meals. Make one of them your pre workout meal and your first meal or the day if possible.

Stick with small servings when it comes to the carbs, no more then 50g per meal. That would give you 100g per day from direct carb source foods and approximately 25-50g more form indirect sources...things like egg yolks have 1g of carbs per yolk, most isolate powders will have 2-3g per scoop, you'll be getting some from your salad etc.

[shadowpilot]

In the past I have had some great results on a Low Carb diet. As for supplements or protein powders etc... I can order those easily. I have no problem eating the same crap everyday if its what gets me in shape. I may be able to order other stuff that falls under the good fats category. I can also get my hands on unlimited peanut butter... Also can anyone describe a good T3/Clen stack how much to buy, how much to take, how long to take it.. all that... Thanks again

[abc123]

Good response.  I don't know if I can help you in any way, but if I can let me know.  I'd be glad to help out.

I think what irritates people is how you respond or 'discuss' issues.  When you respond, you often communicate that your point of view as a 'fact.'  You are very forceful with it.

Sometimes it's better to respond with a question.  It's more disarming.  For example....but, I thought that carbs in the presence of fat is not good because _______?  Or, I thought when a low carb diet makes you flat you need to carb up because _____?

This techique, if you want to call it that, works very well in a work enviroment as well when people disagree. 

You will learn grasshopper.

[Captain Equipoise]

I disagree with the 'no cheese' I love cheese and eat TONS of it... Light Havarti, Swiss, Edam, Mozarella.. also tons of 1% cottage cheese...great source of protein also helps when you get tired of eating the same chicken/steak b.s for protein! I don't think it's so detrimental, if I were you I would worry more about carb intake.
Drink lots of water and/or Crystal Light/Sugar Free Koolaid.

[Emmortal]

I disagree with the 'no cheese' I love cheese and eat TONS of it... Light Havarti, Swiss, Edam, Mozarella.. also tons of 1% cottage cheese...great source of protein also helps when you get tired of eating the same chicken/steak b.s for protein! I don't think it's so detrimental, if I were you I would worry more about carb intake.
Drink lots of water and/or Crystal Light/Sugar Free Koolaid.

The only real time I think cheese and all other dairy is detrimental is in contest prep.  It tends to leave a thin layer under the skin.

[Arnold jr]

The only real time I think cheese and all other dairy is detrimental is in contest prep.  It tends to leave a thin layer under the skin.

I agree, but in this guys case his job is dependent on him losing the weight and he's struggling to do so. Because of that he has got to get rid of any unneeded calories.

[Captain Equipoise]

The only real time I think cheese and all other dairy is detrimental is in contest prep.  It tends to leave a thin layer under the skin.

Agreed, other then that..year round, I love it!

[shadowpilot]

Thanks again for all the responses, I really appreciate the advice.

The only question i have left is...

How do I go about stacking clen and T3? How much of what, for how long?

[tbombz]

 with those two drugs its important to start a minimum dose and work your way up to a level your comfortable at. generally people will run clen at 150-200mcgs and t3 at 75-125mcgs... BUT that could be way too much for you so you should first try low...like maybee 25mcgs t3 + 40mcgs clen and work your way slowly up... i wouldnt recommend going over 300mcgs clen or 200mcgs t3 even if you can tolerate those doses with ease as i dont think its necessary or even more beneficial to go over that range (these are not steroids more does not = better).

[Emmortal]

with those two drugs its important to start a minimum dose and work your way up to a level your comfortable at. generally people will run clen at 150-200mcgs and t3 at 75-125mcgs... BUT that could be way too much for you so you should first try low...like maybee 25mcgs t3 + 40mcgs clen and work your way slowly up... i wouldnt recommend going over 300mcgs clen or 200mcgs t3 even if you can tolerate those doses with ease as i dont think its necessary or even more beneficial to go over that range (these are not steroids more does not = better).

I personally can't go over 120mcgs of Clen without feeling like Michael J. Fox.  Definitely start out low and ramp up with both.  You'll want to ramp down the clen as well, don't really have to ramp down the T3.

[tbombz]

I personally can't go over 120mcgs of Clen without feeling like Michael J. Fox.  Definitely start out low and ramp up with both.  You'll want to ramp down the clen as well, don't really have to ramp down the T3.

Emmortal why do you say you want him to ramp/taper down the Clen ?




oh and shadowpilot heres a perfect example of what i meant..for me i can go as high as 250mcg clen before i get any side effects yet emmortal gets shaky at 120mcg. I know a guy who starts shaking and sweating at 40mcgs... he is an extreme case , but theres a wide range and thats why its important to start low and work your way up.



one other thing... we both forgot to mention duration. t3 can be run as long as you wish it does not lose its effectiveness. clen can be run for a few weeks before it starts to lose effectiveness, at which point you want to either come off the clen for a week or run some kind of anti histamine like benadryl or ketotifen fumarate for a week in order to resensitize you to the clenbuterol.

[shadowpilot]

Yeah I had read online somewhere about stacking clen/t3/ketofen

As for clen, I had ordered some a year ago and was taking them, I have no clue what the mcg was but i was poppin as much as 4 at a time, i think the only really side effect i was noticing was that i was getting muscle cramps more often. in wierd places at that, like id yawn and the muscle under my tounge would lock up... wierd i know..

[Emmortal]

Emmortal why do you say you want him to ramp/taper down the Clen ?

I've just found it easier on myself personally to ramp it down when coming off.  It's not completely necessary but a good idea for a first timer.

[boonstack]

Curious as to why you think this. Energy shot, why? Flat, why?

I've taken butt ass loads of t-3 for years and never had any of this.

Further, I actually truly believe that t-3 is one of the safer drugs to take for fat loss purposes and least damaging to the body. Can it be damaging? Yes, but not as much as many other avenues IMO.

I'm taking t-3 right now, been on it for at least 5 or 6wks now, I sleep about 5hrs a night max, sometimes not at all, and I got all the energy I need. Well, let me rephrase, I sleep 5hrs a night or less, sometimes not at all, but usually crash hard about once every 2wks or so. I don't know how or why I've gotten this way, but it doesn't seem to be bothering me and it's been this way going on about a year now.

well, thats good 

[Captain Equipoise]

That's what hot sauce is for...however, that being said I still won't eat it.

Me too, I can't stand tuna! eeewww..

[tolliscd]

Lean Steak (top sirloin,filet) 2 eggs, brown rice 3 meals. Lean Body RTD with some natural peanut butter 3 times a day. Moderate carbs, high protein, high fat. Supplement Fruits and Veggies with Juice plus.
Supplment with EFAs! Stack Clen and T-3 tapering slowly up to 125 T-3 over about a 3 or 4 week period and stay there. WIth the clen do the same until you get to about 175 or 200 and stay there.
Cardio low intensity 4 or 5 days a week. GOLDEN!!!!