Author Topic: I disagree with Ron Paul  (Read 4879 times)

Hugo Chavez

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I disagree with Ron Paul
« on: September 30, 2008, 12:44:47 PM »
Just heard him on CNN say part of the problem is we overregulate...  I must have missed this before because I would have called BS on that sooner.  The last thing we need is to hand these banks and corporations more free passes under the retarded notion that they'll responsibly self govern ::)  Trusting these guys to watch themselves is exactly why we're in this problem.  Did he misspeak or is this his actual thinking?

Decker

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2008, 12:50:13 PM »
I like Ron Paul's stance on Iraq.  Everything else, well, I'm not too crazy about.


stormshadow

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2008, 01:41:21 PM »
Just heard him on CNN say part of the problem is we overregulate...  I must have missed this before because I would have called BS on that sooner.  The last thing we need is to hand these banks and corporations more free passes under the retarded notion that they'll responsibly self govern ::)  Trusting these guys to watch themselves is exactly why we're in this problem.  Did he misspeak or is this his actual thinking?

You have to understand the context from which he is speaking.

Try to start a restaurant, or even a hotdog stand and you will see what I am talking about.  He is talking about the heavy heavy foundation of gov regulation that helps to create the monopolies in the first place.

Once the monopoly is created then it HAS to have government regulation, because there is no chance of competition from smaller businesses.

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2008, 09:59:35 PM »
I like Ron Paul's stance on Iraq.  Everything else, well, I'm not too crazy about.



What's the "everything else".

Decker

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2008, 05:48:41 AM »
What's the "everything else".
I don't like his tax plan.  It would be effective in the year 1776 but not today.  I don't like his isolationist foreign policy for the most part (not totally thought).  I disagree with his view of affirmative action.  There's other stuff too.

I do admire his views on the drug war, his opposition to the death penalty, his opposition to CAFTA and more.

He's like any other candidate in this respect: he has good points and bad points.  It's better to have a Ron Paul in the Congress than not, that's for sure.

Fury

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2008, 06:38:04 AM »
Just heard him on CNN say part of the problem is we overregulate...  I must have missed this before because I would have called BS on that sooner.  The last thing we need is to hand these banks and corporations more free passes under the retarded notion that they'll responsibly self govern ::)  Trusting these guys to watch themselves is exactly why we're in this problem.  Did he misspeak or is this his actual thinking?

A lot of companies do learn. Traveler's almost collapsed the last time the housing bubble burst in the late 80's/early 90's and they ended up being bought out. This time around they avoided jumping onto the bandwagon with the sub-prime mortgages and as a result they were in position to take over a chunk of AIG's market share until the government stepped in and bailed AIG out. Goldman Sachs noticed the bubble bursting in 2006/2007 and hedged a lot of their risky bets too. They would have ridden the storm out if not for paranoid investors.

I personally agree with Paul that they shouldn't regulate more. Let the companies that fucked up fail. No need to punish the rest. Once the government steps in, they don't leave.

Most of the boutique banks are doing fine right now as they didn't go as crazy with the mortgages as everyone else.

Why punish everyone for the actions of a few of the bulge brackets? I'd rather see the ones who fucked up fail instead of getting bailed out.



That said, Paul does have some good policy views and some fucked up ones. Kind of like every other candidate.

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2008, 07:41:14 AM »
I don't like his tax plan.  It would be effective in the year 1776 but not today.  I don't like his isolationist foreign policy for the most part (not totally thought).  I disagree with his view of affirmative action.  There's other stuff too.

I do admire his views on the drug war, his opposition to the death penalty, his opposition to CAFTA and more.

He's like any other candidate in this respect: he has good points and bad points.  It's better to have a Ron Paul in the Congress than not, that's for sure.

As far as his tax plan is concerned are you specifically talking about his plan to get rid of the Income Tax or was it something else?

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2008, 08:42:14 AM »

I personally agree with Paul that they shouldn't regulate more. Let the companies that fucked up fail. No need to punish the rest. Once the government steps in, they don't leave.
Do you know what regulation is?  It's not bailing compainies out.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2008, 08:45:45 AM »
You have to understand the context from which he is speaking.

Try to start a restaurant, or even a hotdog stand and you will see what I am talking about.  He is talking about the heavy heavy foundation of gov regulation that helps to create the monopolies in the first place.

Once the monopoly is created then it HAS to have government regulation, because there is no chance of competition from smaller businesses.
Can you expand on this, provide some quotes so we know exactly where he stands on this.  If this goes for the big guys too, and that's what the talk was about, I disagree with him.  Less regulation of the corporations aids their monopolies over the small guy.

stormshadow

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2008, 09:38:07 AM »
Can you expand on this, provide some quotes so we know exactly where he stands on this.  If this goes for the big guys too, and that's what the talk was about, I disagree with him.  Less regulation of the corporations aids their monopolies over the small guy.

Government is the backbone for the existence of a monopoly.  Governement creates the problem with the use of the law, and then regulation is "needed" to constantly fight/correct it.  Our monetary system is the perfect example.  Why do you think so many professions require liscenses?  This is using government to create a roadblock to restrict the free market.  Then you have a monopoly on a trade that now has to be "regulated" because nobody else is legally allowed to compete. 

As to the specifics of Ron, he is a proponent of Austrian economics. 

Read Ludwig Von Mises

Read Adam Smith

Read Ayn Rand

Read Murray Rothbard

and most importantly...

Read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" by: Edward Griffen




Hugo Chavez

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2008, 09:56:20 AM »
Government is the backbone for the existence of a monopoly.  Governement creates the problem with the use of the law, and then regulation is "needed" to constantly fight/correct it.  Our monetary system is the perfect example.  Why do you think so many professions require liscenses?  This is using government to create a roadblock to restrict the free market.  Then you have a monopoly on a trade that now has to be "regulated" because nobody else is legally allowed to compete. 

As to the specifics of Ron, he is a proponent of Austrian economics. 

Read Ludwig Von Mises

Read Adam Smith

Read Ayn Rand

Read Murray Rothbard

and most importantly...

Read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" by: Edward Griffen




lets keep a distinction here.  You can't lump all regulation in the same boat.  There is the good, the bad and the ugly.  You get rid of the good and I guarantee it aids in monopoly along with a lot of other shit we're seeing the results of now.  The system Ron Paul wants might very well work, but it's not where we're at right now, not even close.  You indiscriminately support deregulation with these fat cats and everyone else pays the price for their greed.  It's like tossing us into a pool of piranha.

See: Robber Barons...

BM OUT

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2008, 10:00:02 AM »
lets keep a distinction here.  You can't lump all regulation in the same boat.  There is the good, the bad and the ugly.  You get rid of the good and I guarantee it aids in monopoly along with a lot of other shit we're seeing the results of now.  The system Ron Paul wants might very well work, but it's not where we're at right now, not even close.  You indiscriminately support deregulation with these fat cats and everyone else pays the price for their greed.  It's like tossing us into a pool of piranha.

See: Robber Barons...

The people that need to be regulated IS NOT buisiness,its the dirty,filthy,rotten government that puts tons of rules,laws  and regulations on everyone and everything but never seem able to follow the very rules they institute.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2008, 10:03:36 AM »
The people that need to be regulated IS NOT buisiness,its the dirty,filthy,rotten government that puts tons of rules,laws  and regulations on everyone and everything but never seem able to follow the very rules they institute.
yea, businessmen are total angels ::)  Hello!!!!!  When a politician is rotten, who do you think bought them???  ;)

BM OUT

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2008, 10:09:15 AM »
yea, businessmen are total angels ::)  Hello!!!!!  When a politician is rotten, who do you think bought them???  ;)

Politicians are rotten so they can keep their power.They fix NOTHING.Everything they touch turns to shit.Whats their plan for social security,medicade,medicare,thay are all going bankrupt.These thieves wont even touch the subject because anthing they say might kill their chance to stay in power.Id trust Wall street over the congress anyday,and,apparently,so do most Americans as congress has an approval rating of about 17%.Buisiness produces things,politicians redistribute money from those that work to those who wont work.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2008, 10:13:15 AM »
Politicians are rotten so they can keep their power.They fix NOTHING.Everything they touch turns to shit.Whats their plan for social security,medicade,medicare,thay are all going bankrupt.These thieves wont even touch the subject because anthing they say might kill their chance to stay in power.Id trust Wall street over the congress anyday,and,apparently,so do most Americans as congress has an approval rating of about 17%.Buisiness produces things,politicians redistribute money from those that work to those who wont work.
you didn't address my point or rather you seem to deny it and actually I'll repeat the same thing for this post.  Who do you think buys the politician?  It's so naive to say the politician is rotten but look past the one who paid them.  Corporations are the biggest influence on today's politicians.

BM OUT

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2008, 10:18:56 AM »
you didn't address my point, and actually I'll repeat the same thing for this post.  Who do you think buys the politician?  It's so naive to say the politician is rotten but look past the one who paid them.

There are lobbyists that represent business to try and get advantageous deals and bills passed to benefit them.Now,that seems to be logical.You own,or represent a business and you try to get an advantagre to make your business more profitable.

Now,I will ask you.Do these men have no moral fiber.Do they care more for themselves then the people they are supposed to represent?Are they so shallow and corrupt that they cant help but sell out the country>I will say it again,big business is MUCH more trustworthy,much more honest,much more ethical then those filthy scumbags making laws for us to follow but cant follow themselves.

Decker

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2008, 10:27:49 AM »
As far as his tax plan is concerned are you specifically talking about his plan to get rid of the Income Tax or was it something else?
Yeah.  I don't think repealing the 16th amendment is a great idea.  I also don't care much for consumption taxes as a replacement.  Getting rid of the IRS is just plain nonsense.  In any tax scheme, a regulatory entity is needed to ensure compliance.

Decker

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2008, 10:38:03 AM »
Government is the backbone for the existence of a monopoly.  Governement creates the problem with the use of the law, and then regulation is "needed" to constantly fight/correct it.  Our monetary system is the perfect example.  Why do you think so many professions require liscenses?  This is using government to create a roadblock to restrict the free market.  Then you have a monopoly on a trade that now has to be "regulated" because nobody else is legally allowed to compete. 

As to the specifics of Ron, he is a proponent of Austrian economics. 

Read Ludwig Von Mises

Read Adam Smith

Read Ayn Rand

Read Murray Rothbard

and most importantly...

Read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" by: Edward Griffen




How do governmental anti-trust laws fit into your equation?

Fury

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2008, 11:12:50 AM »
Do you know what regulation is?  It's not bailing compainies out.

No dumbfuck, I don't.  ::)

What do you think is going to follow this bailout? Free chocolates? No, MORE REGULATION. Use your fucking head Hugo, I know you can stretch that GED farther than your ultra-liberal mind is letting you. Or does everything need to be spelled out in black and white, Mr. Tinfoil hat?



CNN) -- Two days after the House rejected the $700 billion bailout bill, the Senate is set to vote on the rescue plan for financial institutions.
Rep. Ron Paul said he believes the $700 bailout bill will not solve the financial crisis.

Rep. Ron Paul said he believes the $700 bailout bill will not solve the financial crisis.

The vote is scheduled for after sundown Wednesday.

Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain, Democratic nominee Sen. Barack Obama, and Obama's running mate, Sen. Joe Biden, all said they would be present for the vote.

Speaking to CNN's John Roberts on Wednesday, House Financial Services Committee member and former Republican presidential candidate Rep. Ron Paul discussed why he thinks the bailout bill is the wrong solution to the economic problem and what he would do to secure financial security.

John Roberts: Congressman, great to see you. I was browsing around on your Web site, Campaign for Liberty. And right there on the very front page, you are appealing to your supporters -- and there are tens of thousands of them -- to get in touch with key senators to tell them to vote this bill down when it comes to a vote in the Senate at sundown tonight.

Why do you want them to vote it down?

Rep. Ron Paul: I think it's a bad bill. I think it's bad for the taxpayers. I think it's doing more of the same thing. The same policy that we're following now with this bill is exactly how we got into that trouble. Video

And you know, I really don't have that much clout in Washington, D.C. And I recognize it. But there are a couple people outside of Washington that care about what I'm thinking and care about free market ... economics. And they will respond. And I think we did help generate a little bit of mail to the House members.

So you go where you can have the influence. And I think that people -- the grassroots -- understand this a lot better than members of Congress give them credit for.

Roberts: So, instead of the bills that are currently before the Senate, the one that may be before the House as early as Thursday, what would you do?

Paul: Well, we need to do a lot, but a lot differently. We have to recognize how we got into this problem. We have too much debt. We have too much malinvestment.

Roberts: OK, OK. So we recognize all of the things that got us here. But, right now, today, what would you do, if not this bill?

Paul: You have to liquidate those mistakes. Those mistakes were made due to monetary policy. So you have to allow the market to adjust prices downward. And that's what we're not allowing to do.

If there are too many houses and the prices are too high, the sooner we get the prices down to the market level, as soon as we quit trying to encourage more housing -- this is what we're doing. They're trying to stimulate houses and keep prices high. It's exactly opposite of what we should do.

So, we should get out of the way and not buy up bad debt. There's illiquid assets, but most of those are probably worthless. They're mostly derivatives. And we're sticking those with the taxpayer. So we have to recognize that the liquidation of debt is crucial. And if we did that, we would have tough times, there's no doubt about it, for a year. But if we keep propping a system up that's not viable, we're going to have a problem for decades, just like we did in the Depression. That's what we're on the verge of doing.

Roberts: Congressman Paul, what do you think of this idea that's being floated -- this process called mark to market, which would, they would modify the rules so that the, right now, paper that a lot of these institutions are holding, which is worth nothing, they would actually be able to assign some sort of value to it.

Some people are saying that that would just hide the problem. Other people are wondering if maybe that might create some sort of voodoo accounting that would allow widespread abuse in the system.

What do you think?

Paul: It demonstrates the problem. You know, when they prevented them from marking them down, this was an SEC [Securities and Exchange Commission] regulation. Shows how regulations backfire.

If you had a market economy and then if you had a market-adjusted FDIC, where insurance was based on the strength of the bank, this would have happened on a daily basis. But instead, we insure everybody, no matter what the bank is doing, and we do it, either we overkill -- we give you too much credit on bad investments -- and then we make changes all of a sudden, and they're drastic, to what they have done.

So, it's impossible. It's either too little or too much. And what you need is insurance of, FDIC type of insurance, has to be driven by the marketplace to measure the viability of a bank.

Roberts: So what do you think?

Paul: This adds to all the moral hazard that we have in the system.

Roberts: So what do you then think of this idea of raising the limit on [FDIC] insurance to $250,000, from its current cap of $100,000?

Paul: Well, on the short run it will calm the markets. People will feel better. I might even personally feel better for a week or two.

But I know that long term, it's the wrong thing to do. I opposed this in the early '80s when they went from 30 [thousand dollars] to 100 [thousand dollars], saying it would lead to more problems like this with malinvestment. It would cover over the mistakes. And the same thing will happen.

But if we raise it to 250 [thousand dollars], people are going to feel better, then it will keep the bubble going for a little while longer and putting more pressure on the dollar. If the dollar lasts longer, then finally the world will give up on the dollar -- and then we will have a big problem that nobody has even really begun to think about.

Roberts: A lot of people might hope that you're wrong with your projection.

Paul: I do too. I hope I'm wrong.
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Roberts: You tend to be right on these things on occasion, though. Dr. Paul, it's good to talk to you. Appreciate it.

Paul: Thank you.

stormshadow

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2008, 12:07:30 PM »
How do governmental anti-trust laws fit into your equation?

Smokescreen.  lol.

Anti-trust laws are a big deal when Microsoft tries to buy Yahoo.

How about when JP Morgan swallows up Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch...

How about when the FDIC (again a private banking entity with the power of government behind it) seizes Washington Mutual?

How about when the Federal Reserve dumps 630 billion of new credit into the economy with no oversight from congress?

How about when Government nationalizes Fannie and Freddie by taking equity ownership?

I think you are expecting the Fox to police the hen house...

stormshadow

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2008, 12:21:18 PM »
lets keep a distinction here.  You can't lump all regulation in the same boat.  There is the good, the bad and the ugly.  You get rid of the good and I guarantee it aids in monopoly along with a lot of other shit we're seeing the results of now.  The system Ron Paul wants might very well work, but it's not where we're at right now, not even close.  You indiscriminately support deregulation with these fat cats and everyone else pays the price for their greed.  It's like tossing us into a pool of piranha.

See: Robber Barons...

You are not digging deep enough in trying to understand the system.  It's like talking about government making sure that all of our apples are red and shiny, ignoring the fact that they all have a worm eating at it from the inside.

As long as the Federal Reserve has a monopoly on what is to pass for legal tender, IT DOES NOT MATTER what our government does via law.  It can all be worked around.  You cannot have a discussion on sound economics without focusing on the monetary system.


If you listen to Ron, he always talks about SOUND MONEY first.

If you listen to everyone else on the conservative side they talk about "deregulation" there is NO mention about our monetary system.

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2008, 06:18:27 PM »
Yeah.  I don't think repealing the 16th amendment is a great idea.  I also don't care much for consumption taxes as a replacement.  Getting rid of the IRS is just plain nonsense. 

Would you feel differnently about the Income Tax if you knew that not a dime of goes to programs/infastructure but 100% goes to pay interest on growing debt?

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2008, 06:28:49 PM »
You are not digging deep enough in trying to understand the system. 
Gee thanks ::)  yea, I'm just not applying myself enough in understanding this.................... ..............

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2008, 06:32:05 PM »
Gee thanks ::)  yea, I'm just not applying myself enough in understanding this.................... ..............

Hugo, do you think could you stop being so sarcastic for a minute in order to "hear" whats being asked or told of/to you?

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I disagree with Ron Paul
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2008, 06:38:22 PM »
Hugo, do you think could you stop being so sarcastic for a minute in order to "hear" whats being asked or told of/to you?
why, he didn't address what I said in my post.  I'm willing to do a two way, but he's the one that said I'm not trying to understand this when I sit here all day long reviewing this stuff.  I was simply talking about regulation being bad.  I think that's crazy.  Not all regulation is bad and I don't care how perfect the rest. You want to deregulate, you want a return to the robber baron era.  You cannot have corporate self governance, it's a joke.