I disagree with Ron Paul

[Bindare_Dundat]

why, he didn't address what I said in my post.  I'm willing to do a two way, but he's the one that said I'm not trying to understand this when I sit here all day long reviewing this stuff.  I was simply talking about regulation being bad.  I think that's crazy.  Not all regulation is bad and I don't care how perfect the rest. You want to deregulate, you want a return to the robber baron era.  You cannot have corporate self governance, it's a joke.

He suggested a bunch of books to read. Read em. 

[stormshadow]

He suggested a bunch of books to read. Read em. 

Exactly.  Until you start going to original sources and creating your own understanding of things, you don't realize how full of shit everyone is, and nearly everything they know came from "hearing it" from someone else.

[Hugo Chavez]

He suggested a bunch of books to read. Read em. 

and in these books, I'll learn all about how corporations are responsible enough to watch themselves?  I haven't read a good sci-fi book lately, maybe I will   IT'S NOT EVER GOING TO HAPPEN, IT WON'T EVER HAPPEN, IT'S LIKE THE BUTTHEAD WHO THINKS HE CAN TRUST THE LION NOT TO EAT HIM.  lions kill, then sleep, then the next day they look to kill again and sleep...  Corporation make money then the next day they do the same thing.  Despite their classification as "a person" A corporation is more like a terminator.  They don't eat, they don't sleep, they don't reason, they don't do anything like a person.  If you don't tell a corporation that they can't do X, they will do it if it makes money.  When there are corporations as powerful as today, it's in our absolute best interests to set some regulatory guidelines.  If these banking regulations were not lifted over and over in the past 20 or so years, I doubt we would be in this mortgage meltdown.  It would have been much harder to create the bubble in the first place.

We're not in the system Ron Paul wants to see and even if we were you'd still end up seeing the necessity for regulations.  Yes, I can see where it could become overregulated and that could be bad, but no way these clowns are suffering from over regulation.  They've gone through years of deregulation and now here we are...  Ron Paul said the opposite, there were to many regulations.

[Hugo Chavez]

By the way, I don't disagree with Ron Paul on very much and this isn't an outright attack on him.  He's still cool beans imo, I just didn't agree with this.

[stormshadow]

and in these books, I'll learn all about how corporations are responsible enough to watch themselves?  I haven't read a good sci-fi book lately, maybe I will   IT'S NOT EVER GOING TO HAPPEN, IT WON'T EVER HAPPEN, IT'S LIKE THE BUTTHEAD WHO THINKS HE CAN TRUST THE LION NOT TO EAT HIM.  lions kill, then sleep, then the next day they look to kill again and sleep...  Corporation make money then the next day they do the same thing.  Despite their classification as "a person" A corporation is more like a terminator.  They don't eat, they don't sleep, they don't reason, they don't do anything like a person.  If you don't tell a corporation that they can't do X, they will do it if it makes money.  When there are corporations as powerful as today, it's in our absolute best interests to set some regulatory guidelines.  If these banking regulations were not lifted over and over in the past 20 or so years, I doubt we would be in this mortgage meltdown.  It would have been much harder to create the bubble in the first place.

We're not in the system Ron Paul wants to see and even if we were you'd still end up seeing the necessity for regulations.  Yes, I can see where it could become overregulated and that could be bad, but no way these clowns are suffering from over regulation.  They've gone through years of deregulation and now here we are...  Ron Paul said the opposite, there were to many regulations.

Seriously dude, Turn off the TV for a week and sit down and read The Creature From Jekyll Island.

Government and Banks work together.  If you honestly think that Government regulations will ever police the Banks and Large corporations for the good of the public, then I might as well piss on your leg and tell you it's raining.

[Hugo Chavez]

Seriously dude, Turn off the TV for a week and sit down and read The Creature From Jekyll Island.

Government and Banks work together.  If you honestly think that Government regulations will ever police the Banks and Large corporations for the good of the public, then I might as well piss on your leg and tell you it's raining.

you just identified what I said earlier is a problem.  What? you're saying it's bad because it's corrupt, I agree.  That doesn't change the fact they need to be regulated.  Ron Paul seeks the impossible, what I can't point out what should be?

I've said this before, I'll say it again:
It goes from The Corporation to Government to God to The People, we're last on the totem.
It should go from God to The People to Government to The Corporation.
God included for believers

[Hugo Chavez]

ok, I didn't read the book but just read a few lectures and letters.  He's saying monopolists like government regulation because it protects them from competition.  Points out they did the same thing in Nazi Germany with regulations.  But I have to ask, where does this fit with the deregulation they sought?  There's a problem here, if they're the guys who put it all in place for their own monopolies, why would they dismantle what "they put there"  huh? Could it be?  What is the genesis of the regulations that they've lobbied to end over recent years? 

oh yea, and if you piss on my leg, I'll kick your ass

[Bindare_Dundat]

Yesterday:

Ron Paul: Monetary Policy must change, Public: Ron Pauls wrong
Ron Paul: Don't go into Iraq, Public: Ron Pauls wrong
Ron Paul: Housing Bubble will Collapse: Ron Pauls wrong
Ron Paul: Lets look at Fed's books and investigate PPT: Ron Pauls wrong

Today:

Ron Paul's right

Tomarrow:

Ron Paul: less regulation :Hugo Chavez: Ron Pauls wrong

here we go again......

[Hugo Chavez]

Yesterday:

Ron Paul: Monetary Policy must change, Public: Ron Pauls wrong
Ron Paul: Don't go into Iraq, Public: Ron Pauls wrong
Ron Paul: Housing Bubble will Collapse: Ron Pauls wrong
Ron Paul: Lets look at Fed's books and investigate PPT: Ron Pauls wrong

Today:

Ron Paul's right

Tomarrow:

Ron Paul: less regulation :Hugo Chavez: Ron Pauls wrong

here we go again......

Bin, I've been saying most of that shit toooooo!!!!!!!  Now what   Why don't you hook me up and explain the post I just made above....  Don't fucking try and make it look like I'm one of the neotards against Ron Paul

[Hugo Chavez]

look what laxing regulations and deregulating did to the media.  The little guys got bought up by the big guys at record pace.  No room for the little guy now.  Here is a case where it is exactly the opposite of what Griffin, recommended reading here, says regulation does.
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/mediatimeline.html

[Hugo Chavez]

[edit] Energy deregulation
California was the first state to deregulate its energy market. In the mid-90's, under Republican Governor Pete Wilson, California began deregulating the electricity industry. Democratic State Senator Steve Peace, the chair of the energy committee and the author of the bill that caused deregulation, is often credited as "the father of deregulation". Wilson admitted publicly that defects in the deregulation system would need fixing by "the next governor".

 
PG&E electric meter on Angel Island.The deregulation called for the Investor Owned Utilities, or IOUs, (primarily Pacific Gas and Electric, Southern California Edison, and San Diego Gas and Electric) to sell off a significant part of their power generation to wholly private, unregulated companies such as AES, Reliant, and Enron. The buyers of those power plants then became the wholesalers from which the IOUs needed to buy the electricity that they used to own themselves. While the selling of power plants to private companies was labeled "deregulation", in fact Steve Peace and the California legislature expected that there would be regulation by the FERC which would prevent manipulation. The FERC's job, in theory, is to regulate and enforce Federal law, preventing market manipulation and price manipulation of energy markets. When called upon to regulate the out-of-state privateers which were clearly manipulating the California energy market, the FERC hardly reacted at all and did not take serious action against Enron, Reliant, or any other privateers. FERC's resources are in fact quite sparse in comparison to their entrusted task of policing the energy market. Lobbying by private companies may also have slowed down regulation and enforcement.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis#Energy_deregulation

look what happened when the one thing they needed to be regulated in the midst of the deregulation wasn't...  Look what the corporate terminator did once they had regulations where they wanted them via lobbyists.  They did what corporations do.

[stormshadow]

ok, I didn't read the book but just read a few lectures and letters.  He's saying monopolists like government regulation because it protects them from competition.  Points out they did the same thing in Nazi Germany with regulations.  But I have to ask, where does this fit with the deregulation they sought?  There's a problem here, if they're the guys who put it all in place for their own monopolies, why would they dismantle what "they put there"  huh? Could it be?  What is the genesis of the regulations that they've lobbied to end over recent years? 

oh yea, and if you piss on my leg, I'll kick your ass

Ok dude, since you refuse to read I'll take one stab at trying to explain.

The regulations that you think are so important are only smokescreen layed overtop of a foundation of corruption secured by government force.

It's similar to a man with criminal history walking around with a gun, while the government has banned ownership of guns for everyone else.

Now you would be arguing that the government needs to have regulation to keep the man with the gun from doing harm to the American public.

Regulation cannot prevent Artifical Booms coming from malinvestment Caused by fiat currency.

[Decker]

Smokescreen.  lol.

Anti-trust laws are a big deal when Microsoft tries to buy Yahoo.

How about when JP Morgan swallows up Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch...

How about when the FDIC (again a private banking entity with the power of government behind it) seizes Washington Mutual?

How about when the Federal Reserve dumps 630 billion of new credit into the economy with no oversight from congress?

How about when Government nationalizes Fannie and Freddie by taking equity ownership?

I think you are expecting the Fox to police the hen house...

Anti-trust laws can be enforced rigorously or not.  Guess what side of the fence the Bush Administration falls on?  I don't like that.  How about those other things?  The Fed should be reformed b/c it needs it and b/c it caters to the elites.  Bankers cannot be trusted.  The theory underlying the Fed is sound and should not be done away with...i.e., going back to the gold standard is ridiculous b/c the supply will not match economic performance--mining gold is not a sure thing.

[stormshadow]

Anti-trust laws can be enforced rigorously or not.  Guess what side of the fence the Bush Administration falls on?  I don't like that.  How about those other things?  The Fed should be reformed b/c it needs it and b/c it caters to the elites.  Bankers cannot be trusted.  The theory underlying the Fed is sound and should not be done away with...i.e., going back to the gold standard is ridiculous b/c the supply will not match economic performance--mining gold is not a sure thing.

1.  What is the underlying theory of the Fed that you think is sound?

2.  In Roman times, one ounce of gold bought a Toga, Belt, and pair of slippers.  Today it buys a nice suit, belt, and pair of shoes.  Silver buys the same amount of gas in 1960 that it does today.  Please explain how precious metals limit economic performance?

3.  From 1913 to 1990 the wage of the average American increased 3,234% - an average of 42% per year in terms of dollars.  In terms of gold, it only increased 1% per year.  Is this 3,157% increase in the fiat money supply the medium you claim is needed to match economic performance?

[Bindare_Dundat]

1.  What is the underlying theory of the Fed that you think is sound?

2.  In Roman times, one ounce of gold bought a Toga, Belt, and pair of slippers.  Today it buys a nice suit, belt, and pair of shoes.  Silver buys the same amount of gas in 1960 that it does today.  Please explain how precious metals limit economic performance?

3.  From 1913 to 1990 the wage of the average American increased 3,234% - an average of 42% per year in terms of dollars.  In terms of gold, it only increased 1% per year.  Is this 3,157% increase in the fiat money supply the medium you claim is needed to match economic performance?

Storm forget it. Decker and Hugo are both intelligent but when you're discussing this type of stuff you are asking people to take everything they have every known to be true and throw it out the window. Asking a person to step outside who they think they are but what was actually enforced upon them is almost impossible to explain or describe in the span of a few sentances. I learned that in another thread with Decker, I would literally have to be on here day in, day out walking through every tiny aspect of what it is you are now trying to explain. You know what kind of rabbit hole it can become. 

It's simple, they have to first be willing to except something different from what they have known to be true ther whole lives and then they need to take the time and energy to do research of their own.

[Decker]

1.  What is the underlying theory of the Fed that you think is sound?

2.  In Roman times, one ounce of gold bought a Toga, Belt, and pair of slippers.  Today it buys a nice suit, belt, and pair of shoes.  Silver buys the same amount of gas in 1960 that it does today.  Please explain how precious metals limit economic performance?

3.  From 1913 to 1990 the wage of the average American increased 3,234% - an average of 42% per year in terms of dollars.  In terms of gold, it only increased 1% per year.  Is this 3157% increase in the fiat money supply the medium you claim is needed to match economic performance?

I don't care for the pre-scientific economics of the Austrian school of economics.

1.  The Fed's control of the money supply influences the business cycle.  It tries to maintain a balance in the economy by expanding the money supply enought to avoid high unemployment while not creating inflation.  Since this country adopted Keynesian management of the economy via operation of the Fed, this country has not had a depression.

2.  The government/fed controls the money supply.  That keeps us safe from depressions.  When the money supply is determined by an entirely arbitrary standard, like the amount of precious metals we can get out of the ground, the odds that the money supply will match the amount needed are zero.  There's no elasticity in that meatball.  Hello depression.  Goodbye contol of inflation and unemployment.

3.  See above.

The elimination of the Fed in favor of reinstating the gold standard is a horrible idea and a bunch of dead teutonic economists is not going to change that.

[Deicide]

Storm forget it. Decker and Hugo are both intelligent but when you're discussing this type of stuff you are asking people to take everything they have every known to be true and throw it out the window. Asking a person to step outside who they think they are but what was actually enforced upon them is almost impossible to explain or describe in the span of a few sentances. I learned that in another thread with Decker, I would literally have to be on here day in, day out walking through every tiny aspect of what it is you are now trying to explain. You know what kind of rabbit hole it can become. 

It's simple, they have to first be willing to except something different from what they have known to be true ther whole lives and then they need to take the time and energy to do research of their own.

Ron Paul. I would shine his shoes.

[Decker]

Storm forget it. Decker and Hugo are both intelligent but when you're discussing this type of stuff you are asking people to take everything they have every known to be true and throw it out the window. Asking a person to step outside who they think they are but what was actually enforced upon them is almost impossible to explain or describe in the span of a few sentances. I learned that in another thread with Decker, I would literally have to be on here day in, day out walking through every tiny aspect of what it is you are now trying to explain. You know what kind of rabbit hole it can become. 

It's simple, they have to first be willing to except something different from what they have known to be true ther whole lives and then they need to take the time and energy to do research of their own.

I learned about the federal reserve in college.  Now the gold standard, that's a cherished belief.  It harkens back to a simpler time.  However that time is no longer.  And the gold standard should be resigned to the trashbin of history.  It served its purpose already.

[Hugo Chavez]

Ok dude, since you refuse to read I'll take one stab at trying to explain.

The regulations that you think are so important are only smokescreen layed overtop of a foundation of corruption secured by government force.

It's similar to a man with criminal history walking around with a gun, while the government has banned ownership of guns for everyone else.

Now you would be arguing that the government needs to have regulation to keep the man with the gun from doing harm to the American public.

Regulation cannot prevent Artifical Booms coming from malinvestment Caused by fiat currency.

Wow, what a fucking asshole...  Hey everybody, It's been 1 day and I didn't read his goddamned booklist yet so it's "since I REFUSE to read"   Well, gee I didn't have these books but what I did do is go review material he had on it.  Indeed in a lecture I found his basic outline of regulations.  Man, on this board it's hard as fuck to get anybody to go read anything and I get busted on for staying up last night reading hours of this guys shit.  and I'm the stubborn one

fuck you dick.

[Hugo Chavez]

Storm forget it. Decker and Hugo are both intelligent but when you're discussing this type of stuff you are asking people to take everything they have every known to be true and throw it out the window. Asking a person to step outside who they think they are but what was actually enforced upon them is almost impossible to explain or describe in the span of a few sentances. I learned that in another thread with Decker, I would literally have to be on here day in, day out walking through every tiny aspect of what it is you are now trying to explain. You know what kind of rabbit hole it can become. 

It's simple, they have to first be willing to except something different from what they have known to be true ther whole lives and then they need to take the time and energy to do research of their own.

Oh... I took the blue pill huh?  I'm Hugo fucking Chavez aka Berserker...  Nobody has brought more red pill material to this board than me and you fucking know it.     Regulation isn't bad, bad regulation is bad.  As I said above, the hierarchy must be changed so that the people tell the government who tells the corporations/banks.  Guess what buddy, that's exactly what Griffin says in this video!!!  To get what we all want in this area, he requires THE PEOPLE to be the primary mover of these reforms!  well gee, it sure sounds like stormshadow just told me that was naive thinking.  If I'm naive then so is Griffin!

(and this is a very good documentary, much like the Freedom to Fascism video I was trying to get BB to watch a while back, which got deleted somehow )
http://filmtalks.net/post/2008/04/05/g-edward-griffin-creature-from-jekyll-island-a-second-look-at-the-federal-reserve/#a

Ok, so what happens if the Fed is gone and regulations are done away with leaving it up to the market as supported by the libertarian philosophy.  Here's what happens:  You know those movies showing a future with One Corporation running everything... Exactly...  Here is what they will have to wake up to real fast.  Regulations of various industries will be absolutely required, not just to prevent monopoly but every other which way the people will be scammed and they will be manipulated and scammed in ways you never thought of with a free pass.  Just letting these guys shoot it out and shit will settle on its own is the most naive thinking.

You accuse me of taking the blue pill, I'm accusing you of idolatry.  You seems to have made this into a faith not to have any aspect questioned.  And you have Deicide above, he'll shine your God's shoes   Question everything, that's taking the red pill buddy.

[stormshadow]

Wow, what a fucking asshole...  Hey everybody, It's been 1 day and I didn't read his goddamned booklist yet so it's "since I REFUSE to read"   Well, gee I didn't have these books but what I did do is go review material he had on it.  Indeed in a lecture I found his basic outline of regulations.  Man, on this board it's hard as fuck to get anybody to go read anything and I get busted on for staying up last night reading hours of this guys shit.  and I'm the stubborn one

fuck you dick.

You - Like most Americans, are not capable of sitting down and reading books.

I wish you luck on your quest to learn from youtube videos.

Griffen's videos are only what he has memorized.  The material in his book tells the whole story and gives you facts to go verify for yourself.

If you prefer to make judgments based on what someone can spout off the top of their head, vs what they took years to research and write down, then knock yourself out.

There is a pretty well known guy making youtube videos about the Federal Reserve, and I asked him some questions that rocked his whole understanding, and come to find out he was parroting stuff about the Federal Reserve that he had not really thought out.  This man also wrote and ebook and told me he is going to have to go back and rethink it all out.

Wake up! Turn your brain on

[Soul Crusher]

BUMP 

[Hugo Chavez]

Thanks, I was looking for this thread a few months ago.  I wanted to bump it myself.  I still feel the same way.  It's one of the things I disagree with Ron Paul on.  But that doesn't mean I don't like him.  He's hands down the best guy for the job.  I don't have to like everything he stands for.

I do not believe regulations are bad just automatically.  Bad regulations are bad.  Because there are bad regulations, doesn't mean you should just be for doing away with all regulation.  It means you have to do away with bad regulations and make sure others are there for a good reason with positive benifit.

[loco]

Just heard him on CNN say part of the problem is we overregulate...  I must have missed this before because I would have called BS on that sooner.  The last thing we need is to hand these banks and corporations more free passes under the retarded notion that they'll responsibly self govern  Trusting these guys to watch themselves is exactly why we're in this problem.  Did he misspeak or is this his actual thinking?

I disagree with Ron Paul on this too, or I don't understand what he means.  The derivatives market needs to be regulated more.  Not regulating derivatives has very much to do with the current status of the global economy.


"We didn't truly know the dangers of the market, because it was a dark market," says Brooksley Born, the head of an obscure federal regulatory agency -- the Commodity Futures Trading Commission [CFTC] -- who not only warned of the potential for economic meltdown in the late 1990s, but also tried to convince the country's key economic powerbrokers to take actions that could have helped avert the crisis. "They were totally opposed to it," Born says. "That puzzled me. What was it that was in this market that had to be hidden?"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/

[Deicide]

I disagree with Ron Paul on this too, or I don't understand what he means.  The derivatives market needs to be regulated more.  Not regulating derivatives has very much to do with the current status of the global economy.


"We didn't truly know the dangers of the market, because it was a dark market," says Brooksley Born, the head of an obscure federal regulatory agency -- the Commodity Futures Trading Commission [CFTC] -- who not only warned of the potential for economic meltdown in the late 1990s, but also tried to convince the country's key economic powerbrokers to take actions that could have helped avert the crisis. "They were totally opposed to it," Born says. "That puzzled me. What was it that was in this market that had to be hidden?"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/

I think Glass Steagal should be reinstated but even then, I don't know if it would be enough. If RP could speak more of this I would love to listen.