Author Topic: Death and Dying  (Read 13905 times)

Dos Equis

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Death and Dying
« on: October 09, 2008, 11:02:01 AM »
I've been to three funerals/memorial services in the past week and just lost a friend yesterday.  I'm not sure who came up with the funeral ritual, but I really don't like funerals.  There may be laughs when you talk about the person, but overall funerals are just gloomy, sad, and depressing.  I wish the tradition had never started. 

It breaks my heart to see the widows and widowers at these services.  I don't like death.  I don't like having to deal with dying.  I'm not afraid to die, but having to deal with the emotions involved when someone is dying, or has already died, is something I'd rather do without.  It's one of the worst parts about living.  It pains me to see healthy people become sick and die.

I don't really have a point, other than to say death, dying, and funerals suck.       

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2008, 03:00:25 PM »


I don't really have a point, other than to say death, dying, and funerals suck.       

I just finished a book that might be of interest. It’s called “What Happens When We Die” by Sam Parnia MD, PhD. He’s made an indepth study of Near Death Experiences (NDE’s) and actually attempted to test them (with interesting results, but of limited utility to the question at hand) and is very much grounded in science. It’s a fascinating read on a topic close to us all. Although I found the topic of NDE's interesting, I actually found his look at the nature of human consciousness even more interesting. A short review:

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE is the title of a book by Dr Sam Parnia, MD, PhD, one of the world's leading scientific and medical researchers into NDEs (Near-Death Experiences).

Dr Parnia is a British-born medical specialist in pulmonary (lung) and critical care medicine. He has also been a world
Dr. Sam Parnialeader into afterlife research, with his outstanding studies that started when he worked at Southampton University and Southampton Hospital in the UK. This has since been followed by further research in the USA where Dr Parnia is today Fellow in Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine at the very prestigious Cornell University, as well as working with some of the leading hospitals. Dr Parnia is also the Chairman of the Horizon Research Foundation.

Because he works daily with emergency care patients, many often being in critical as well as near-death situations, Dr Parnia is in a position to be able to deal with death and dying. It is because of being exposed to patients who have had NDEs and/or OBEs that his interest in this area started and has now developed into what it is: world-leading research and also this book. It is something anyone wanting to know more about the medical and scientific aspects of such things should read. It is also well written and very interesting, as well as illuminating and enjoyable.

The foreword is written by eminent medical person, Dr Peter Fenwick, BA, MB, BChir, DPM, FRC Psych, a consultant neuropsychiatrist and neurophysiologist to the Institute of Psychiatry in London, who poses a question that so many are now asking and on which Dr Parnia offers information, if not entire explanations, in his book: "Does the near-death experience occur and consciousness indeed continue when all brain functions are absent - something our current neuroscience regards as impossible - or does the near-death experience occur either before or after the cardiac arrest, although it is interpreted by the experiencer as occurring during unconsciousness?" This, of course, is something touched on in some of the many stories told in either of our own books, Death - The Ultimate Orgasm? and The Dying Experience and Learning How to Live, even if they are only anecdotal and thus not valid scientifically.

Dr Fenwick also expresses the hope that "after reading this story, wonderfully told by Dr Parnia, not only will more people develop an understanding of what happens when we die, but that more scientists, philanthropists and forward-looking scientific bodies will agree to conduct and support the next stage of this research and so help to push forward one of the final frontiers of neuroscience."

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2008, 03:04:42 PM »
I've been to three funerals/memorial services in the past week and just lost a friend yesterday.  I'm not sure who came up with the funeral ritual, but I really don't like funerals.  There may be laughs when you talk about the person, but overall funerals are just gloomy, sad, and depressing.  I wish the tradition had never started. 

It breaks my heart to see the widows and widowers at these services.  I don't like death.  I don't like having to deal with dying.  I'm not afraid to die, but having to deal with the emotions involved when someone is dying, or has already died, is something I'd rather do without.  It's one of the worst parts about living.  It pains me to see healthy people become sick and die.

I don't really have a point, other than to say death, dying, and funerals suck.       

Yes you are.
Either that or you're not fully aware of the fact that one day you will be gone.

wavelength

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2008, 03:09:31 PM »
Dr Fenwick also expresses the hope that "after reading this story, wonderfully told by Dr Parnia, not only will more people develop an understanding of what happens when we die, but that more scientists, philanthropists and forward-looking scientific bodies will agree to conduct and support the next stage of this research and so help to push forward one of the final frontiers of neuroscience."

I fully support all efforts of science on this issue.
However, IMO neuroscience does and will not be able to explain neither human life nor death.

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2008, 03:09:49 PM »
I just finished a book that might be of interest. It’s called “What Happens When We Die” by Sam Parnia MD, PhD. He’s made an indepth study of Near Death Experiences (NDE’s) and actually attempted to test them (with interesting results, but of limited utility to the question at hand) and is very much grounded in science. It’s a fascinating read on a topic close to us all. Although I found the topic of NDE's interesting, I actually found his look at the nature of human consciousness even more interesting. A short review:

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE is the title of a book by Dr Sam Parnia, MD, PhD, one of the world's leading scientific and medical researchers into NDEs (Near-Death Experiences).

Dr Parnia is a British-born medical specialist in pulmonary (lung) and critical care medicine. He has also been a world
Dr. Sam Parnialeader into afterlife research, with his outstanding studies that started when he worked at Southampton University and Southampton Hospital in the UK. This has since been followed by further research in the USA where Dr Parnia is today Fellow in Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine at the very prestigious Cornell University, as well as working with some of the leading hospitals. Dr Parnia is also the Chairman of the Horizon Research Foundation.

Because he works daily with emergency care patients, many often being in critical as well as near-death situations, Dr Parnia is in a position to be able to deal with death and dying. It is because of being exposed to patients who have had NDEs and/or OBEs that his interest in this area started and has now developed into what it is: world-leading research and also this book. It is something anyone wanting to know more about the medical and scientific aspects of such things should read. It is also well written and very interesting, as well as illuminating and enjoyable.

The foreword is written by eminent medical person, Dr Peter Fenwick, BA, MB, BChir, DPM, FRC Psych, a consultant neuropsychiatrist and neurophysiologist to the Institute of Psychiatry in London, who poses a question that so many are now asking and on which Dr Parnia offers information, if not entire explanations, in his book: "Does the near-death experience occur and consciousness indeed continue when all brain functions are absent - something our current neuroscience regards as impossible - or does the near-death experience occur either before or after the cardiac arrest, although it is interpreted by the experiencer as occurring during unconsciousness?" This, of course, is something touched on in some of the many stories told in either of our own books, Death - The Ultimate Orgasm? and The Dying Experience and Learning How to Live, even if they are only anecdotal and thus not valid scientifically.

Dr Fenwick also expresses the hope that "after reading this story, wonderfully told by Dr Parnia, not only will more people develop an understanding of what happens when we die, but that more scientists, philanthropists and forward-looking scientific bodies will agree to conduct and support the next stage of this research and so help to push forward one of the final frontiers of neuroscience."

You didnt actualy say jack shit here, no attack on you will but you do ramble ALLOT.
Just like the time when you wrote a 2000 word essay on why a calorie is a calorie.

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2008, 03:16:12 PM »
You didnt actualy say jack shit here, no attack on you will but you do ramble ALLOT.

He mentioned death and dying, I talked about a book I just read that looks at exactly that, and added a review of the book. Not real hard to follow there sport. Carry on.  ::)

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2008, 03:19:43 PM »
I fully support all efforts of science on this issue.
However, IMO neuroscience does and will not be able to explain neither human life nor death.

So now you're an expert on neuro science too? You seem to have no problem commenting on areas of science you have exactly zero training and background in. Read Dr. Parnia's works on the topic? Didn't think so. As per my usual criticism of your comments, making sweeping statements about areas you have no background in gets on people's nerves. Perhaps it's a language barrier thing, but it's annoying.

wavelength

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2008, 03:30:44 PM »
So now you're an expert on neuro science now? You seem to have no problem commenting on areas of science you have exactly zero training and background in. Read Dr. Parnia's works on the topic? Didn't think so. As per my usual criticism of your comments, making sweeping statements about areas you have no background in gets on people's nerves. Perhaps it's a language barrier thing, but it's annoying.

One does not have to be an expert in a certain area of science to understand its restrictions. Rather, those experts most of the time have the blinders on when they cross the lines of their restrictions unknowingly and become pseudo-philosphers. You seem to come from a point, where there is no doubt whatsoever that (natural) science is the only valid body of knowledge there is, correct?

If I get on your nerves, just ignore my posts. If you want to have a civil discussion on the topic, I'm up for it. 8)

Eisenherz

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2008, 03:36:21 PM »
One does not have to be an expert in a certain area of science to understand its restrictions. Rather, those experts most of the time have the blinders on when they cross the lines of their restrictions unknowingly and become pseudo-philosphers. You seem to come from a point, where there is no doubt whatsoever that (natural) science is the only valid body of knowledge there is, correct?

If I get on your nerves, just ignore my posts. If you want to have a civil discussion on the topic, I'm up for it. 8)

Silly argument IMO, in the end there is no concrete conclusion.

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2008, 03:37:38 PM »
Silly argument IMO, in the end there is no concrete conclusion.

Elaborate.

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2008, 03:43:21 PM »
One does not have to be an expert in a certain area of science to understand its restrictions.

False, and your generic sweeping statement to avoid reality. One does have to know enough about a topic to know it's strength and limitations ("restrictions" being the wrong word there) which is why people with computer science degrees should not make comments about the limitations of neuro science (especially minus actually reading the works of the author mentioned) as neuro scientists should not make comments about computer science.

Rather, those experts most of the time have the blinders on when they cross the lines of their restrictions unknowingly and become pseudo-philosphers.

Good scientists know the difference between science and philosophy, and doing the pseudo-wanna be-scientist in areas you don't have any background for has been your forte in all the threads of yours I get involved in.

You seem to come from a point, where there is no doubt whatsoever that (natural) science is the only valid body of knowledge there is, correct?

False.

If I get on your nerves, just ignore my posts.

Better yet, don't respond to mine with sweeping ignorant statements on topics you have zero background for.

wavelength

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2008, 03:54:50 PM »
False, and your generic sweeping statement to avoid reality. One does have to know enough about a topic to know it's strength and limitations ("restrictions" being the wrong word there) which is why people with computer science degrees should not make comments about the limitations of neuro science (especially minus actually reading the works of the author mentioned) as neuro scientists should not make comments about computer science.

There are general restrictions to all natural sciences. They all operate on models of reality, they use certain methods and certain languages. What I was talking about has nothing to do with computer scientist against neuro scientist.

Good scientists know the difference between science and philosophy, and doing the pseudo-wanna be-scientist in areas you don't have any background for has been your forte in all the threads of yours I get involved in.

So what is the difference then? My experience is that they don't know. But I agree that good scientists would.

False.

So we agree.

Better yet, don't respond to mine with sweeping ignorant statements on topics you have zero background for.

The topic is death. To claim that natural science can say anything substantial (at least what I would call substantial) about it, is the sweeping ignorant statement IMO.

I don't know why you act so aggressive. I will repeat what I said in a different thread: if I have offended you in any way, I apologize. If you post in a forum, you will generally not be able to limit the group of people who are allowed to respond.

Dos Equis

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2008, 04:56:43 PM »
I just finished a book that might be of interest. It’s called “What Happens When We Die” by Sam Parnia MD, PhD. He’s made an indepth study of Near Death Experiences (NDE’s) and actually attempted to test them (with interesting results, but of limited utility to the question at hand) and is very much grounded in science. It’s a fascinating read on a topic close to us all. Although I found the topic of NDE's interesting, I actually found his look at the nature of human consciousness even more interesting. A short review:

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE is the title of a book by Dr Sam Parnia, MD, PhD, one of the world's leading scientific and medical researchers into NDEs (Near-Death Experiences).

Dr Parnia is a British-born medical specialist in pulmonary (lung) and critical care medicine. He has also been a world
Dr. Sam Parnialeader into afterlife research, with his outstanding studies that started when he worked at Southampton University and Southampton Hospital in the UK. This has since been followed by further research in the USA where Dr Parnia is today Fellow in Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine at the very prestigious Cornell University, as well as working with some of the leading hospitals. Dr Parnia is also the Chairman of the Horizon Research Foundation.

Because he works daily with emergency care patients, many often being in critical as well as near-death situations, Dr Parnia is in a position to be able to deal with death and dying. It is because of being exposed to patients who have had NDEs and/or OBEs that his interest in this area started and has now developed into what it is: world-leading research and also this book. It is something anyone wanting to know more about the medical and scientific aspects of such things should read. It is also well written and very interesting, as well as illuminating and enjoyable.

The foreword is written by eminent medical person, Dr Peter Fenwick, BA, MB, BChir, DPM, FRC Psych, a consultant neuropsychiatrist and neurophysiologist to the Institute of Psychiatry in London, who poses a question that so many are now asking and on which Dr Parnia offers information, if not entire explanations, in his book: "Does the near-death experience occur and consciousness indeed continue when all brain functions are absent - something our current neuroscience regards as impossible - or does the near-death experience occur either before or after the cardiac arrest, although it is interpreted by the experiencer as occurring during unconsciousness?" This, of course, is something touched on in some of the many stories told in either of our own books, Death - The Ultimate Orgasm? and The Dying Experience and Learning How to Live, even if they are only anecdotal and thus not valid scientifically.

Dr Fenwick also expresses the hope that "after reading this story, wonderfully told by Dr Parnia, not only will more people develop an understanding of what happens when we die, but that more scientists, philanthropists and forward-looking scientific bodies will agree to conduct and support the next stage of this research and so help to push forward one of the final frontiers of neuroscience."

Sounds like an interesting book.  I'm always looking for good books.  Thanks for the recommendation. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2008, 04:58:02 PM »
Yes you are.
Either that or you're not fully aware of the fact that one day you will be gone.

No I'm not. 

What does the fact that I know I will be gone one day have to do with me being afraid of dying?

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2008, 04:59:57 PM »
No I'm not. 
What does the fact that I know I will be gone one day have to do with me being afraid of dying?

Sounds pretty scary to me. But you're right, maybe that's just me.

Dos Equis

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2008, 05:02:19 PM »
Sounds pretty scary to me. But you're right, maybe that's just me.

What's scary about it? 

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2008, 05:04:27 PM »
I've been to three funerals/memorial services in the past week and just lost a friend yesterday.  I'm not sure who came up with the funeral ritual, but I really don't like funerals.  There may be laughs when you talk about the person, but overall funerals are just gloomy, sad, and depressing.  I wish the tradition had never started. 

It breaks my heart to see the widows and widowers at these services.  I don't like death.  I don't like having to deal with dying.  I'm not afraid to die, but having to deal with the emotions involved when someone is dying, or has already died, is something I'd rather do without.  It's one of the worst parts about living.  It pains me to see healthy people become sick and die.

I don't really have a point, other than to say death, dying, and funerals suck.       


Yes, funerals suck........Memorials actually can be less stressful, and people can share stories about the person.  I have been to funerals that are very elaborate, and then very simple services....I believe that the simple funerals are better, if you compare them...Loss sucks, even when you know the person has been sick a longtime, or is on hospice......I am sorry about your loss, and I know that most people feel that "death sucks"....I also agree that the bereavement after the person dies is almost as difficult as the funeral, but we get through it!!!  Again, I am sorry about your loss!!   

My father used to say, "don't fear the "dead", its the living that will kill ya"!!

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2008, 05:07:08 PM »
The scariest thing to me is the possibility of never seeing those I care about the most again.  I hope that there is a heaven and there's a huge party with all of those I love and care for.  Slim chance but I can always dream.

wavelength

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2008, 05:14:40 PM »
What's scary about it? 

I only know life, and life I like very much. Death, I don't know other than it ends life as I know it.
The abstract thought of death can be very interesting of course, not necessarily scary.
However, if I allow my consciousness (resp. if it allows me) to fully grasp the vastness of it, I can't do anything else than stand in awe. Such moments don't come often in our society, which is specialized in obscuring and suppressing death completely.

But as I said, that's maybe just my experience.

Eisenherz

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2008, 06:06:02 PM »
Tough sometimes to embrace not knowing.

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2008, 06:10:59 PM »
Tough sometimes to embrace not knowing.

You are a wise man.

spotter

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2008, 06:54:23 PM »
Tough sometimes to embrace not knowing.

Very True!

Dos Equis

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2008, 10:34:12 AM »

Yes, funerals suck........Memorials actually can be less stressful, and people can share stories about the person.  I have been to funerals that are very elaborate, and then very simple services....I believe that the simple funerals are better, if you compare them...Loss sucks, even when you know the person has been sick a longtime, or is on hospice......I am sorry about your loss, and I know that most people feel that "death sucks"....I also agree that the bereavement after the person dies is almost as difficult as the funeral, but we get through it!!!  Again, I am sorry about your loss!!   

My father used to say, "don't fear the "dead", its the living that will kill ya"!!

Thanks spotter.  Your father was right.  :)

Dos Equis

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 10:35:56 AM »
I only know life, and life I like very much. Death, I don't know other than it ends life as I know it.
The abstract thought of death can be very interesting of course, not necessarily scary.
However, if I allow my consciousness (resp. if it allows me) to fully grasp the vastness of it, I can't do anything else than stand in awe. Such moments don't come often in our society, which is specialized in obscuring and suppressing death completely.

But as I said, that's maybe just my experience.

I understand.  Fear of the unknown is normal.  I just tend not to worry about things outside of my control.   

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Re: Death and Dying
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2008, 10:44:52 AM »
I understand.  Fear of the unknown is normal.  I just tend not to worry about things outside of my control.

Ever been seriously sick? Just curious.