Author Topic: Spaying female dogs?  (Read 12366 times)

MuscleMcMannus

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Spaying female dogs?
« on: October 14, 2008, 08:39:00 PM »
I think it's bullshit for the most part and just another way for vets to make money.  I have a 5 year old Boxer and my vet is constantly trying to get me to have her spayed.  From the research I've done the stats are piss poor as far as supporting all the claims made by vets and spaying.  Sounds to me like big pharma for people and putting everyone on cholesterol drugs!  What do you guys think?  My gf's parents Boxer is living to a ripe old age and was never neutered.  I also think it's political i.e. keeping people from having unwanted puppies which I can understand. 

TrapsMcLats

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2008, 10:12:47 PM »
The chances of your bitch having unhealthy, false pregnancies are greatly increased, as are her chances of cancer.  spay and neuter your pets unless you are a licenced, registered breeder.

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2008, 01:51:51 AM »
Lets also face the facts about spays....they are a MAJOR abdominal exploratory surgery.   The veterinary world has made a major mistake downplaying the invasiveness of this surgery.   Its nieve for someone to say that its  "a way to make money" when, if proper surgerical technique is followed, the time required and materials used are very similar to those used with a full abdominal exploratory surgery---ie gas anesthesia (roughly $40-145/ hour depending on type of anesthesia and monitoring equipment), surgery pack (cleanind, packing fees should be roughly $35-75/pack depending on resterilized vs disposable instruments), surgery table and tech prep fees (this will vary by area, but roughly $65-100), surgery itself (assume average time for a spay to run 45 minutes at a billing rate of $100/hour, this doesn't include the surgeries with complications that run 2 hours or the "fast" 30 minute proceedures), hospitalization (at roughly $50/day) and medication charges (anesthesia, IV catheter placement, IV or SQ fluids, post op pain management, suture, etc (roughly $75-150).    So add that up and you get something along the lines of:  roughly $400-650 per surgery.   How do veterinary clinics do it cheaper?  Simple, they cut corners or they dont' bill for what they are actually doing.   

Very few veterinary hospitals I know actualy bill correctly for the amount of time and labor necessary to spay a dog---and remember, I'm basing prices on itemized prices for a PUPPY, and adult dog will have higher costs. 
You are completely missing the boat if you got to a veterinary hospital that charges a commonly chrarged price of ~$175 to spay a 50 lb puppy and you claim they are "trying to make a buck".   As a matter of fact, you are so clueless, I strongly suggest you give up pet ownership.  Most veterinary hospitals will adjust the cost of spays/neuters down as a means of encouraging owners to have the proceedure done.  There is always some idiot that will try to argue the economics of spaying and neutering despite the bottom line of hospitals losing money with those proceedures. 

The facts are pretty straight forward, especially when it comes to spays:  a female dog spayed before the first heat cycle has a virtual 0% (<3%) statistical chance of developing mammary cancer.  That increases to 7-9% with the first heat cycle, and to a 25% chance (THIS IS 1 in 4 dogs) with the second heat cycle.   

Spaying completely eliminates the risk of pyometra.  The statistics vary depending on the study from roughly 30% to as high as 50% of dogs have a risk of developing pyometra at some point in their life if they are not bred and are kept intact`.  Pyometra is the life-threatening infection of the uterus that generally occurs in middle-aged to older female dogs in the six weeks following heat.  It is an infection of the uterus that will result in death if left untreated.  Treatment is to remove the source of the infection--the uterus and ovaries.   Think about your dog with this one.  It logically makes more sense to remove a normal sized, non infected uterus at a much lower risk than a huge pus filled, friable uterus in a dog with a high fever who is knocking on deaths door.  Pyometra will kill.  IF you don't believe me, don't treat your dog when she gets it. 

Finally spaying does eliminate the "mess" of a female dog in heat.   Lets face it, a normal female dog will drip blood all over your house, ruining furniture and carpets.  If shes outside, you are going to have to deal with males from all over coming by to get a piece of her action.  Horniness overrides common sense in dogs and a bitch in heat has led to the death of many a male dog as they crossed the road. 

Whats the disadvantage to spaying?  Honestly, I can see none if the surgery is done at a time right before the first heat cycle (roughly 5 months for most dog breeds).   I do think there are some very valid issues for not doing early spays unless absolutely necessary.  The biggest is lack of vulvar developement leading to urine scalding in the adult dog and female incontinance.   I prsonally have only seen these in dogs spayed before 4 1/2 months of age, not after that other than one dog---my mother in laws german shepard became a "piddler" after she was spayed at almost 2 years of age.   To me she is a dog with other problems and urine leakage was just a small part of the mix with her.  In other words, I"m not sure I'd count that dog because of the dog. 


Now castrating male dogs is not as clear cut.  The biggest issue with male dogs is it will decrease, but may not eliminate male associated behaviors like mounting and scent urination (lifting a leg in dogs or urine spraying in cats) and direct sexual male aggression.  Castration does not eliminate the possibility for prostate cancer, but it will eliminate benign prostate hyperplasia--something most intact male dogs are guaranteed to get in some form through their lives. 

There are also well defined, clearly described problems with "early" neuters in both dogs and cats.   If anyone reading this has tried to pass a urinary catheter in a fat 16 lb housecat that was castrated at 8 weeks of age and as a result has a 1/2 inch long penis you will understand exactly what I'm writing.  Male dogs will not develop characteristic muscle mass, will have longer legs, and will have a smaller head cosmetically when neutered before they reach full maturity. 

All of that said the older the dog gets, the greater the risk of postoperative complications with a neuter, including bruising, licking, pain, and discomfort.  Most dogs neutered at 5 months of age or so have no problems post operatively.  Once the male goes through the canine equivilant of pubert, there is signiciant increases in the amount of subcutaneous blood vessels and attenuation of the nerve supply to the testicle, epididymus, and scrotum.   This means they are going to bleed, bruise, and hurt the older they are when neutered.   I think this is something good pet owners need to consider. 


Just some things to think about...... 

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2008, 04:11:07 AM »
I never had any mess with Addie and she is a Great Dane. Some dogs are more cleaner than others.   Altering at 5months of age is too early.  You forgot early altering and the increased risk of osteosarcoma which is already a risk for some dogs.  That should be the LEAST of the reasons for choosing when to alter your bitch. HEALTH should be the first reason you base your decision on, and the risks of the options for whatever you chose. 

 I believe letting the dog reach maturity for it's breed determines when to alter.  A friend of mine with a female Dane had her vet upset that the dog was was not spayed at 5 months!!  It is ridiculous at how callous the removal of hormones is taken.  They are there for a reason, at least leave them in long enough so the animal can mature properly. 

A good article on both the Pros and Cons for early altering (before a year) and gives the ACTUAL RISKS (not some that are usually inflated or deflated by vets)


http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Just another one I found real quick:

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html


I personally believe if not showing the dog and no plans of breeding then waiting until the dog is breed mature is usually the best choice. Although I have no qualms with a responsible person choosing not to alter at all. A yin yang who will not be responsible and let his bitch "accidentally" get bred or it's male "accidentally" sire puppies and they are not good standards to the breed or have health checks, then they should most definitely alter.   

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2008, 05:55:11 AM »
Lets also face the facts about spays....they are a MAJOR abdominal exploratory surgery.   The veterinary world has made a major mistake downplaying the invasiveness of this surgery.   Its nieve for someone to say that its  "a way to make money" when, if proper surgerical technique is followed, the time required and materials used are very similar to those used with a full abdominal exploratory surgery---ie gas anesthesia (roughly $40-145/ hour depending on type of anesthesia and monitoring equipment), surgery pack (cleanind, packing fees should be roughly $35-75/pack depending on resterilized vs disposable instruments), surgery table and tech prep fees (this will vary by area, but roughly $65-100), surgery itself (assume average time for a spay to run 45 minutes at a billing rate of $100/hour, this doesn't include the surgeries with complications that run 2 hours or the "fast" 30 minute proceedures), hospitalization (at roughly $50/day) and medication charges (anesthesia, IV catheter placement, IV or SQ fluids, post op pain management, suture, etc (roughly $75-150).    So add that up and you get something along the lines of:  roughly $400-650 per surgery.   How do veterinary clinics do it cheaper?  Simple, they cut corners or they dont' bill for what they are actually doing.   

Very few veterinary hospitals I know actualy bill correctly for the amount of time and labor necessary to spay a dog---and remember, I'm basing prices on itemized prices for a PUPPY, and adult dog will have higher costs. 
You are completely missing the boat if you got to a veterinary hospital that charges a commonly chrarged price of ~$175 to spay a 50 lb puppy and you claim they are "trying to make a buck".   As a matter of fact, you are so clueless, I strongly suggest you give up pet ownership.  Most veterinary hospitals will adjust the cost of spays/neuters down as a means of encouraging owners to have the proceedure done.  There is always some idiot that will try to argue the economics of spaying and neutering despite the bottom line of hospitals losing money with those proceedures. 

The facts are pretty straight forward, especially when it comes to spays:  a female dog spayed before the first heat cycle has a virtual 0% (<3%) statistical chance of developing mammary cancer.  That increases to 7-9% with the first heat cycle, and to a 25% chance (THIS IS 1 in 4 dogs) with the second heat cycle.   

Spaying completely eliminates the risk of pyometra.  The statistics vary depending on the study from roughly 30% to as high as 50% of dogs have a risk of developing pyometra at some point in their life if they are not bred and are kept intact`.  Pyometra is the life-threatening infection of the uterus that generally occurs in middle-aged to older female dogs in the six weeks following heat.  It is an infection of the uterus that will result in death if left untreated.  Treatment is to remove the source of the infection--the uterus and ovaries.   Think about your dog with this one.  It logically makes more sense to remove a normal sized, non infected uterus at a much lower risk than a huge pus filled, friable uterus in a dog with a high fever who is knocking on deaths door.  Pyometra will kill.  IF you don't believe me, don't treat your dog when she gets it. 

Finally spaying does eliminate the "mess" of a female dog in heat.   Lets face it, a normal female dog will drip blood all over your house, ruining furniture and carpets.  If shes outside, you are going to have to deal with males from all over coming by to get a piece of her action.  Horniness overrides common sense in dogs and a bitch in heat has led to the death of many a male dog as they crossed the road. 

Whats the disadvantage to spaying?  Honestly, I can see none if the surgery is done at a time right before the first heat cycle (roughly 5 months for most dog breeds).   I do think there are some very valid issues for not doing early spays unless absolutely necessary.  The biggest is lack of vulvar developement leading to urine scalding in the adult dog and female incontinance.   I prsonally have only seen these in dogs spayed before 4 1/2 months of age, not after that other than one dog---my mother in laws german shepard became a "piddler" after she was spayed at almost 2 years of age.   To me she is a dog with other problems and urine leakage was just a small part of the mix with her.  In other words, I"m not sure I'd count that dog because of the dog. 


Now castrating male dogs is not as clear cut.  The biggest issue with male dogs is it will decrease, but may not eliminate male associated behaviors like mounting and scent urination (lifting a leg in dogs or urine spraying in cats) and direct sexual male aggression.  Castration does not eliminate the possibility for prostate cancer, but it will eliminate benign prostate hyperplasia--something most intact male dogs are guaranteed to get in some form through their lives. 

There are also well defined, clearly described problems with "early" neuters in both dogs and cats.   If anyone reading this has tried to pass a urinary catheter in a fat 16 lb housecat that was castrated at 8 weeks of age and as a result has a 1/2 inch long penis you will understand exactly what I'm writing.  Male dogs will not develop characteristic muscle mass, will have longer legs, and will have a smaller head cosmetically when neutered before they reach full maturity. 

All of that said the older the dog gets, the greater the risk of postoperative complications with a neuter, including bruising, licking, pain, and discomfort.  Most dogs neutered at 5 months of age or so have no problems post operatively.  Once the male goes through the canine equivilant of pubert, there is signiciant increases in the amount of subcutaneous blood vessels and attenuation of the nerve supply to the testicle, epididymus, and scrotum.   This means they are going to bleed, bruise, and hurt the older they are when neutered.   I think this is something good pet owners need to consider. 


Just some things to think about...... 

Ok if you're a vet why don't you post the actual statistics and medical studies.  Let's take cholesterol medication for example and how it affects heart diseas.  You can find study after study on boths sides of the argument.  Did you that statins cause cancer long term?  Did you know that early spaying and neutering can cause bone cancer in Rotts?  Again most of these stupid articles and info promoting spaying and neutering is concerned with overbreeding and unwanted litters.  This whole spaying and neutering nonsense is based on 1970's research.  Vet can you post the statistics of how many unspayed dogs get pyometra?  No you can't.  Unless it comes from some prospay/neuter website!  Say what you want about your own profession but I work in human healthcare and I see the same shit day in and day out.  Pets are no different.  There are as many or more drawbacks to spaying a female dog as there are to not spaying one.  Dogs have been around hundreds of years.  I guess only in the last 30 years dogs have been living to 15 years old right?  I mean I guess all dogs of yesteryear died of cancer and pyometra at one year old?  Gimme a break.  The stats and research is either nonexistnent or misleading. 

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2008, 06:26:21 AM »
There is also something called stump pyometra where some of the uterus is left intact after surgery.  So you're statement that spaying completely eliminates pyometra is bullshit. 

http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm


Advantages of spay or neuter

•  Eliminates risk of testicular cancer (most are benign in behaviour)
•  Reduces risk of mammary cancer (if performed before 2.5 years of age)
•  Reduces risk of pyometra (uterine infection)
•  Eliminates risk of uterine tumours (given uterus is removed)
•  Eliminates risk of ovarian cancer
•  Reduces risk of prostatic hyperplasia and inflammation
•  Reduces risk of benign perianal tumours in dogs
•  Reduces urine marking, mounting.  May reduce roaming

Disadvantages of spay or neuter

•  Decreased life span
•  Increases risk of urinary incontinence (in both bitches and dogs)
•  Increases risk of obesity
•  Increases risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer)
•  Increases risk of prostatic cancer
•  Increases risk of bladder cancer
•  Increases risk of cardiac haemangiosarcoma
•  Increases risk of splenic haemangiosarcoma in spayed bitches
•  Increases risk of cholangiocarcinoma (cancer of bile ducts) in spayed bitches
•  Increases risk of cranial cruciate ligament injury
•  Increases risk of patellar luxation in small- and medium-sized dogs
•  Increases risk of adverse vaccine reactions
•  Increases risk of myasthenia gravis in spayed bitches
•  Increases risk of pancreatitis in spayed bitches
•  Increases risk of aggression, fearfulness
•  Increases cognitive impairment in aged dogs already showing signs of disease
•  Increases risk of benign perianal tumours in spayed bitches
•  Increases risk of peri-vulvar dermatitis, vaginitis, cystitis and recurrent urinary tract infections in early-age spayed bitches

Again Vet can you show me statistics that show the incidence of pyometra in unspayed dogs?  I bet you can't.  Every fucking time I go into a vet's office they only mention pyometra and a few other types of cancer.  when clearly the facts above are left out. 


MuscleMcMannus

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2008, 06:41:32 AM »
Hypothyroidism
Spay/neuter in dogs was found to be correlated with a three fold increased
risk of hypothyroidism compared to intact dogs.
The researchers suggest a cause-and-effect relationship26. They wrote: "More
important [than the mild direct impact on thyroid function] in the
association between [spaying and] neutering and hypothyroidism may be the
effect of sex hormones on the immune system. Castration increases the
severity of autoimmune
thyroiditis in mice" which may explain the link between spay/neuter and
hypothyroidism in dogs. Hypothyroidism in dogs causes obesity, lethargy,
hair loss, and reproductive abnormalities.27


Hemangiosarcoma
Hemangiosarcoma is a common cancer in dogs. It is a major cause of death in
some breeds, such as Salukis, French Bulldogs, Irish Water Spaniels, Flat
Coated Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Boxers, Afghan Hounds, English Setter,
Scottish Terrier, Boston Terrier, Bulldogs, and German Shepherd Dogs24.
In an aged-matched case controlled study, spayed females were found to have
a 2.2 times higher risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma compared to intact
females24.
A retrospective study of cardiac hemangiosarcoma risk factors found a >5
times greater risk in spayed female dogs compared to intact female dogs and
a 1.6 times higher risk in
neutered male dogs compared to intact male dogs.25 The authors suggest a
protective effect of sex hormones against hemangiosarcoma, especially in
females.
In breeds where hermangiosarcoma is an important cause of death, the
increased risk associated with spay/neuter is likely one that should factor
into decisions on whether or when to sterilize a dog.


Reproductive Tract Cancer (Uterine, Cervical, and Ovarian Cancers)
Uterine/cervical tumors are rare in dogs, constituting just 0.3% of tumors
in dogs21.
Spaying will remove the risk of ovarian tumors, but the risk is only 0.5%22.
While spaying will remove the risk of reproductive tract tumors, it is
unlikely that surgery can be justified to prevent the risks of uterine,
cervical, and ovarian cancers as the risks are so low.
Urinary Tract Cancer (Bladder and Urethra Cancers)
An age-matched retrospective study found that spay/neuter dogs were two
times more likely to develop lower urinary tract tumors (bladder or urethra)
compared to intact dogs23. These tumors are nearly always malignant, but are
infrequent, accounting for less than 1% of canine tumors. So this risk is
unlikely to weigh
heavily on spay/neuter decisions.
Airedales, Beagles, and Scottish Terriers are at elevated risk for urinary
tract cancer while German Shepherds have a lower than average risk23.

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2008, 06:45:50 AM »
Pyometra kills about 1% of intact dogs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  http://www2.dcn.org/orgs/ddtc/sfiles/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf%20

All vets do is regurgitate the same old bullshit dogma without informing people of the other side. 

Vet

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2008, 01:32:10 PM »
I never had any mess with Addie and she is a Great Dane. Some dogs are more cleaner than others.   Altering at 5months of age is too early.  You forgot early altering and the increased risk of osteosarcoma which is already a risk for some dogs.  That should be the LEAST of the reasons for choosing when to alter your bitch. HEALTH should be the first reason you base your decision on, and the risks of the options for whatever you chose. 

 I believe letting the dog reach maturity for it's breed determines when to alter.  A friend of mine with a female Dane had her vet upset that the dog was was not spayed at 5 months!!  It is ridiculous at how callous the removal of hormones is taken.  They are there for a reason, at least leave them in long enough so the animal can mature properly. 

A good article on both the Pros and Cons for early altering (before a year) and gives the ACTUAL RISKS (not some that are usually inflated or deflated by vets)


http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Just another one I found real quick:

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html


I personally believe if not showing the dog and no plans of breeding then waiting until the dog is breed mature is usually the best choice. Although I have no qualms with a responsible person choosing not to alter at all. A yin yang who will not be responsible and let his bitch "accidentally" get bred or it's male "accidentally" sire puppies and they are not good standards to the breed or have health checks, then they should most definitely alter.   

Look what I wrote---I said age appropriate for the breed.     Giant breed dogs, like great danes, are a bit out of the ordinary because of the breed and slower maturity. 

the canine sports link you put up is a good summary of both sides of the argument.  There are some things I do disagree with--like Obesity.  Obesity of a dog is the product of owners feeding their dogs too much for their dietary needs and too little exercise.   I think there is a false conclusions drawn saying "dogs get fat" when they are spayed and neutered.    The owners need to feed appropriately and keep the dogs active. 

Vet

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2008, 01:56:24 PM »
Ok if you're a vet why don't you post the actual statistics and medical studies.  Let's take cholesterol medication for example and how it affects heart diseas.  You can find study after study on boths sides of the argument.  Did you that statins cause cancer long term?  Did you know that early spaying and neutering can cause bone cancer in Rotts?  Again most of these stupid articles and info promoting spaying and neutering is concerned with overbreeding and unwanted litters.  This whole spaying and neutering nonsense is based on 1970's research.  Vet can you post the statistics of how many unspayed dogs get pyometra?  No you can't.  Unless it comes from some prospay/neuter website!  Say what you want about your own profession but I work in human healthcare and I see the same shit day in and day out.  Pets are no different.  There are as many or more drawbacks to spaying a female dog as there are to not spaying one.  Dogs have been around hundreds of years.  I guess only in the last 30 years dogs have been living to 15 years old right?  I mean I guess all dogs of yesteryear died of cancer and pyometra at one year old?  Gimme a break.  The stats and research is either nonexistnent or misleading. 
Lets not talk about statin drugs.  I've been one of themembers of the medical community who has fought feverishly AGAINST those drugs.   Their side effects and the fact that the majority of the research was directly funded by the pharmaceutical companies makes all of the research surrounding them very suspicious. 

You are very wrong saying that the pyometra recommendations are based on 1970's research. 
Here are two relatively recent studies on incidence of pyometra published in respected peer reviewed journals:



Breed risk of pyometra in insured dogs in Sweden
J Vet Intern Med. 2001 Nov-Dec;15(6):530-8.
A Egenvall1, R Hagman, B N Bonnett, A Hedhammar, P Olson, A S Lagersted

Abstract
An animal insurance database containing data on over 200,000 dogs was used to study the occurrence of pyometra with respect to breed and age during 1995 and 1996 in Swedish bitches <10 years of age. A total of 1,803 females in 1995 and 1,754 females in 1996 had claims submitted because of pyometra. Thirty breeds with at least 800 bitches insured each year were studied using univariate and multivariate methods. The crude 12-month risk of pyometra for females <10 years of age was 2.0% (95% confidence interval = 1.9-2.1%) in 1995 and 1.9% (1.8-2.0%) in 1996. The occurrence of pyometra differed with age, breed, and geographic location. The risk of developing pyometra was increased (identified using multivariate models) in rough Collies, Rottweilers, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, Golden Retrievers, Bernese Mountain Dogs, and English Cocker Spaniels compared with baseline (all other breeds, including mixed breed dogs). Breeds with a low risk of developing the disease were Drevers, German Shepherd Dogs, Miniature Dachshunds, Dachshunds (normal size), and Swedish Hounds. Survival rates indicate that on average 23-24% of the bitches in the databases will have experienced pyometra by 10 years of age. In the studied breeds, this proportion ranged between 10 and 54%. Pyometra is a clinically relevant problem in intact bitches, and differences related to breed and age should be taken into account in studies of this disease.



Incidence of pyometra in colony-raised beagle dogs.  Exp Anim. July 2001;50(4):325-9.
S Fukuda


Abstract
Incidence of pyometra observed in our colony-raised beagle dogs over a 12-year period is described. Pyometra was observed in 25 female dogs of more than 4 years old, frequently at 8-11 years, with the average age of onset 9.36 +/- 0.38 years. The incidence of the disease was 15.2% of the female dogs (n = 165) more than 4 years old. Clinical findings useful in the diagnosis of this disease included an excretion of pus from the cervix, rapid increase in leukocyte count, and enlarged uterus as revealed by radiography. The relationships of delivery, estrus cycles to this disease are discussed. Ovariohysterectomy or uterectomy was the only effective method of treatment. In conclusion, the results indicated that pyometra might be an age-related disease because it occurred particularly in aged dogs


This article isn't a population study, its a review.  Its good because it points out pyometra isn't the ONLY major problem that develops in an intact female dog.  Spaying will prevent all of thesemedical problems.

Clinical presentation of canine pyometra and mucometra: A review
Theriogenology. August 2008;70(3):359-63.
S D Pretzer1


Abstract
Cystic endometrial hyperplasia (CEH) in the bitch can result in either pyometra, hematometra, or hydrometra, and many facets of these uterine diseases can make them difficult to differentiate. The conditions differ in their systemic effects, since pyometra, particularly closed-cervix pyometra, can be a life-threatening condition that must be recognized, managed, and treated expeditiously. Mucometra is an accumulation of sterile intraluminal mucoid fluid, hematometra is an accumulation of sterile, bloody fluid, and hydrometra is an accumulation of sterile, watery fluid; none of which have any significant systemic outward clinical signs. This paper will describe the definitions, signalment, historical findings, incidence, clinical signs, physical exam findings, and diagnostic findings in canine pyometra and mucometra, and hematometra and hydrometra.

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2008, 02:29:39 PM »
There is also something called stump pyometra where some of the uterus is left intact after surgery.  So you're statement that spaying completely eliminates pyometra is bullshit. 



You shouldn't argue medical terminology you don't understand.  A stump pyometra has TWO requirements to occur. A spay is an OVARIOHYSTERECTOMY.  This means the ovary and the uterus are removed.  For a stump pyometra to occur there has to be both uterus and ovary left behind. 

First there is usually a remnant of uterine tissue immediately adjacent to the cervix---typically a spay is done with the suture place immediately proximal to the cervix.  By doing the surgery this way, the closed cervix will act as a natural barrier preventing bacteria from entering the body cavity from vaginal vault.   This tissue is normal and will respond to progesterone like normal canine uterus---developing a pyometra, hydrometra, or hemometra.   Placement of the suture is somewhat influenced by the individual structure of the dog immediately proximal and distal to the cervix.  In some animals, the cervix sits almost within the pelvic canal, preventing suture placement immediately against the cervix.   

Second, there HAS TO BE AN OVARIAN remnant producing hormones to stimulate the remnant uterine tissue.   
A stump pyometra develops in response from hormones from that ovary/ovarian remnant. 


The bottom line with a stump pyometra is its more or less a medical accident.  The surgeon performing the initial surgery fucked up and left a portion of the ovary in the body cavity---sometimes it inadvertantly happens--I've seen (and published case reports) on stump pyometra in exotic species where the OHE was performed by a board certified surgeon.  Typically in private practice it happens when the surgeon is distracted, the patient is extremely tiny, the surgeon attempts to cut corners with the proceedure, or there is a anatomical anomaly (Ie a really, really fat dog). 

If a surgeon practices good surgical techinique and is methodical in their surgery, stump pyometras should not develop.   I personally have never had one (although I don't do near the spays I used to do) in the 10 years I've been performing OHE's on dogs.   I've been involved with about a dozen surgical corrections.   

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2008, 02:30:56 PM »
Pyometra kills about 1% of intact dogs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  http://www2.dcn.org/orgs/ddtc/sfiles/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf%20

All vets do is regurgitate the same old bullshit dogma without informing people of the other side. 

You've got a pretty negative agenda don't ya? 

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2008, 02:34:55 PM »
There is also something called stump pyometra where some of the uterus is left intact after surgery.  So you're statement that spaying completely eliminates pyometra is bullshit. 

http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm


Advantages of spay or neuter

•  Eliminates risk of testicular cancer (most are benign in behaviour)
•  Reduces risk of mammary cancer (if performed before 2.5 years of age)
•  Reduces risk of pyometra (uterine infection)
•  Eliminates risk of uterine tumours (given uterus is removed)
•  Eliminates risk of ovarian cancer
•  Reduces risk of prostatic hyperplasia and inflammation
•  Reduces risk of benign perianal tumours in dogs
•  Reduces urine marking, mounting.  May reduce roaming

Disadvantages of spay or neuter

•  Decreased life span
•  Increases risk of urinary incontinence (in both bitches and dogs)
•  Increases risk of obesity
•  Increases risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer)
•  Increases risk of prostatic cancer
•  Increases risk of bladder cancer
•  Increases risk of cardiac haemangiosarcoma
•  Increases risk of splenic haemangiosarcoma in spayed bitches
•  Increases risk of cholangiocarcinoma (cancer of bile ducts) in spayed bitches
•  Increases risk of cranial cruciate ligament injury
•  Increases risk of patellar luxation in small- and medium-sized dogs
•  Increases risk of adverse vaccine reactions
•  Increases risk of myasthenia gravis in spayed bitches
•  Increases risk of pancreatitis in spayed bitches
•  Increases risk of aggression, fearfulness
•  Increases cognitive impairment in aged dogs already showing signs of disease
•  Increases risk of benign perianal tumours in spayed bitches
•  Increases risk of peri-vulvar dermatitis, vaginitis, cystitis and recurrent urinary tract infections in early-age spayed bitches

Again Vet can you show me statistics that show the incidence of pyometra in unspayed dogs?  I bet you can't.  Every fucking time I go into a vet's office they only mention pyometra and a few other types of cancer.  when clearly the facts above are left out. 



Id like to see the references for the "disadvantages of spay/neuter".  Things like "decreased life span" are way too general and vague to have much merit.  the same with 'aggression/fearfulness".    Also I've already addressed the obesity issue.   

Please state references for the others listed.   Thank you. 

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2008, 04:52:28 PM »
You've got a pretty negative agenda don't ya? 


 LOL!   I'm looking pretty reasonable now aren't I?    ;D   :-* lol


  Hey- how come it is so hard to find a good avian vet?   >:(  Is it just not a specialty people get into?  How is it going for you btw?  You gonna get certified soon?    I'm on my second avian vet.  I do like this guy better, he was more hands on and more thorough. Will have to see. I adopted another plucking Quaker and I took her to this guy and I liked him and how he handled and checked her (we are doing a round of antibiotics to see if the bacteria is a possible cause or contributor to her plucking) and I am taking Max with me when she goes for her recheck next week and I will have him tested too. I know most cases you never find a cause but I'd like to cross of skin problems off the list.   He showed me how some feathers were not growing in right, so maybe for her it is bacteria in the follicles. 

Ooops, got off track there! 
  :D

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2008, 05:19:06 PM »
My current Doberman was spayed and now she has occasional urinary incontinence when she sleeps, but its treated with the Proin we give her. My previous female Doberman started to "nest" about 2 weeks after she was spayed and destroyed 2 couches.

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2008, 11:17:18 AM »

 LOL!   I'm looking pretty reasonable now aren't I?    ;D   :-* lol 

LOL.  Yup...   :-*


 
Quote
Hey- how come it is so hard to find a good avian vet?   >:(  Is it just not a specialty people get into?  How is it going for you btw?  You gonna get certified soon?    I'm on my second avian vet.  I do like this guy better, he was more hands on and more thorough. Will have to see. I adopted another plucking Quaker and I took her to this guy and I liked him and how he handled and checked her (we are doing a round of antibiotics to see if the bacteria is a possible cause or contributor to her plucking) and I am taking Max with me when she goes for her recheck next week and I will have him tested too. I know most cases you never find a cause but I'd like to cross of skin problems off the list.   He showed me how some feathers were not growing in right, so maybe for her it is bacteria in the follicles. 

Ooops, got off track there!  [/color]  :D

Its a three fold problem.  First off more and more veterinary teaching hospitals are dropping their avian/exotics programs.  You are lucky in New York because Dr. Morrisey (who's a great guy) still has a program at Cornelle.  Unfortunately AMC has lost their residency program in the City, so that means fewer specialists, but they are still working with students from all over the US.  New York State has former AMCer's who are specialists who are very, very good, but if I remember right where you live is sort of in a 'dry" area.  The closest is something like 3 hours away or so, which is a bit of a trip for a little bird who isn't used to it. 

Second, avian medicine uses basic veterinary medical principles, but they are specialized for the phsyiology of birds.  It takes time to really understand this and quite honestly, some people just flat out miss the boat.  That or they don't keep upto date with new changes. 

Third is the finances.  I made a living doing 80% exotics in private practice, but that was somewhat unusual.  The economics of an avian only practice keep some very good veterinarians from doing it. 

A good friend of mine, Dr. Diane Preziosi  (I'm putting her name up so you can look up the abstracts of her papers---I'm figuring you'll do that.   ;) ) looked at fungal and bacterial causes of dermatitis/feather picking in birds while she was doing her dermatology residency at Penn.   The bacterial work was never directly published because her research was more focused on yeast causes of dermatitis.  The thing is from her work, bacteria often aren't a primary cause, but are secondary to the trauma caused by the bird.  Yeast are even less common.  Typically with a feather picker with a bacterial component you will see crusty, "moist" skin in the areas that are affected.

I'm still in boards limbo.  AVMA approved the exotic mammal boards, which is very attractive to me.  I am writing my case reports for avian boards.  And I've still got to get my research project done for ACZM boards.   My wife is credentialing for emergency and critical care boards now, so who knows.   It'll happen, its just a matter of time.  Right now I'm working for my ELITE total as a SHW powerlifter too, so thats taking up a bit of my time. 

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2008, 01:50:05 PM »
Thorough owning by Vet.

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2008, 02:18:29 PM »
LOL.  Yup...   :-*


 Its a three fold problem.  First off more and more veterinary teaching hospitals are dropping their avian/exotics programs.  You are lucky in New York because Dr. Morrisey (who's a great guy) still has a program at Cornelle.  Unfortunately AMC has lost their residency program in the City, so that means fewer specialists, but they are still working with students from all over the US.  New York State has former AMCer's who are specialists who are very, very good, but if I remember right where you live is sort of in a 'dry" area.  The closest is something like 3 hours away or so, which is a bit of a trip for a little bird who isn't used to it. 

Second, avian medicine uses basic veterinary medical principles, but they are specialized for the phsyiology of birds.  It takes time to really understand this and quite honestly, some people just flat out miss the boat.  That or they don't keep upto date with new changes. 

Third is the finances.  I made a living doing 80% exotics in private practice, but that was somewhat unusual.  The economics of an avian only practice keep some very good veterinarians from doing it. 

A good friend of mine, Dr. Diane Preziosi  (I'm putting her name up so you can look up the abstracts of her papers---I'm figuring you'll do that.   ;) ) looked at fungal and bacterial causes of dermatitis/feather picking in birds while she was doing her dermatology residency at Penn.   The bacterial work was never directly published because her research was more focused on yeast causes of dermatitis.  The thing is from her work, bacteria often aren't a primary cause, but are secondary to the trauma caused by the bird.  Yeast are even less common.  Typically with a feather picker with a bacterial component you will see crusty, "moist" skin in the areas that are affected.

I'm still in boards limbo.  AVMA approved the exotic mammal boards, which is very attractive to me.  I am writing my case reports for avian boards.  And I've still got to get my research project done for ACZM boards.   My wife is credentialing for emergency and critical care boards now, so who knows.   It'll happen, its just a matter of time.  Right now I'm working for my ELITE total as a SHW powerlifter too, so thats taking up a bit of my time. 

I'm close to Cornell, I am in Rochester, but would only go there for a special circumstance.  I know people who have taken their pets to Cornell for special cases and for ortho reasons.  That stinks that schools aren't teaching avian classes like they used too, but working with birds or any exotics is certainly different than dogs and cats and other furry critters!  Just handling them to vet them is much different.  I can see why most vet students don't bother with that field in addition to monetary reasons.  I am not sure if any of the vets here that see birds are actually avian certified? And I know we don't have an exotics only vet here, their are just a few that will see exotics along with the furry clients. And I doubt the all hours emergency vet has any exotic vets. 

I know a bacteria or skin problem is a long shot with the pluckers but I would like to rule it out or if it is secondary then to address it.  Being out of a shelter and on a different diet could improve their plucking, but if they now have a skin problem as a result of the plucking I might not see any improvement.  I will look for those papers sometime in the future  ;)

 If you ever hear of a good avian vet in the Rochester area let me know. 
  Good luck on your credentials and powerlifting.   :)

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2008, 04:50:09 AM »
Anyone know about BPH in male dogs?  Can this be prevented with an aromatase inhibitor?  The vets I talk to all want the dogs neutered and I called Cornell just to ask the question and they wouldn't answer it.  When I talked to my vet he clearly believes Testosterone is the culprit but couldn't it be falling testosterone and estrogen ratios?  Any help?

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2008, 05:43:52 PM »
Anyone know about BPH in male dogs?  Can this be prevented with an aromatase inhibitor?  The vets I talk to all want the dogs neutered and I called Cornell just to ask the question and they wouldn't answer it.  When I talked to my vet he clearly believes Testosterone is the culprit but couldn't it be falling testosterone and estrogen ratios?  Any help?


Basically its very similar to BPH in humans and in ferrets (which you see secondary to adrogens from adrenal tumors).  Finesteride works very well in both species for noninfected, nonneoplastic prostate enlargement (I've personally prescribed both drugs with positive results).  Now one of the problems with BPH in dogs and Postatic hyperplasia in ferrets is the incidence of prostatic abcesses.  Infection isapparently much more common than in humans, so that has to be delt with.


I personally think those drugs aren't "common" for two or three reasons. One, they are relatively new and there is little veterinary research on them because the companies producing them are focused entirely on humans (thats where the $$$ is) and second is cost.   Treating a large dog can get costly, espeically if the dose has to be compounded.  Finally it's convinence.   Face it, many owners would rather put their dog through 1 surgery with a couple of weeks of recovery that provides relief than give medication every day for the rest of the dogs life.   

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2008, 05:26:57 AM »
Thanks for your reply Vet!  Talking to vets about this is like pulling teeth-and the majority didn't even know what I was talking about.  It's great that at least someone knows what these drugs are about.

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2008, 09:42:42 PM »
If your not planning to breed your pet do your animal a favor and neuter or spay it.  The animal is much more taim and once you spay or neuter your pet your saving the chance of an unwanted puppies or kittens.  An animals objective in life is reproduce/mate if you are depriving it of that why wouldn't you do it a huge favor and spay or neuter. What is this a third world country listen to Bob Barker.

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2008, 11:39:29 PM »
If your not planning to breed your pet do your animal a favor and neuter or spay it.  The animal is much more taim and once you spay or neuter your pet your saving the chance of an unwanted puppies or kittens.  An animals objective in life is reproduce/mate if you are depriving it of that why wouldn't you do it a huge favor and spay or neuter. What is this a third world country listen to Bob Barker.

I'm a responsible pet owner.  My dog will never end up with an unwanted pregnancy.  Spaying and neutering dogs is unnecessary and unnatural in my opinon and the research proving otherwise is inconclusive at best.  But hey most vets will tell you a raw diet of meat, vegetables and other things is no better for your pet than processed dog food.  LMAO!  Some real geniuses in the medical and veterinary fields I tell you.  Sometimes you gotta go with your gut and my gut tells me my dog is better off not being spayed.  And I happen to love her obnoxious, energetic, alpha female personality.  I wouldn't want a couch potato slouch of a dog.  You argument is stupid and appeals to emotion rather than science.  Just because a dog cannot actually reproduce it's healthier to cut out her uterus and ovaries?  That's some real logic right there. 

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2008, 11:43:56 PM »
Id like to see the references for the "disadvantages of spay/neuter".  Things like "decreased life span" are way too general and vague to have much merit.  the same with 'aggression/fearfulness".    Also I've already addressed the obesity issue.   

Please state references for the others listed.   Thank you. 

Ok so why don't you address the host of other disadvantages that I posted???????????/  And your statement on stump pyometra proves my point.  Although rare it can and does happen.  That's like your field telling people about pyometra as if it's going to happen at some point if a female is not spayed.  That's just fear mongering and nothing more.  The statistic I posted says that only 1% of intact dogs die of pyometra. 

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Re: Spaying female dogs?
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2008, 10:13:45 AM »
Ok so why don't you address the host of other disadvantages that I posted???????????/  And your statement on stump pyometra proves my point.  Although rare it can and does happen.  That's like your field telling people about pyometra as if it's going to happen at some point if a female is not spayed.  That's just fear mongering and nothing more.  The statistic I posted says that only 1% of intact dogs die of pyometra. 

Um reread what I posted.   I'm stating that some of those are way to vague and subjective to be even remotely associated. The others may be, but I'm not aware of any reference that actualy proves that.  I asked you for references.  You've got sources saying its 1%.  I posted different numbers. 

I'll continue to patiently wait for you to post the references I asked for in the first place instead of you running in circles because you've decided something has to be one way.   Post some peer reviewed references first, then we'll talk.   


Thank you.