Author Topic: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans  (Read 1988 times)

Dos Equis

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How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« on: October 20, 2008, 08:44:07 AM »
when 40 percent don't pay taxes?  This according to McCain on the campaign trail today.  If true, why the heck didn't he raise this during the debates? 

shootfighter1

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2008, 08:51:15 AM »
Several respected economists have raised this point.  McCain missed the timing on this issue.
He will cut income taxes on 95% of people that pay taxes...thats the catch!
He is also giving tax credits to a great # who don't even pay taxes.  Thats wrong.

Also, it does not apply to his idea to raise capital gains, dividens, payroll, inheritance and marriage taxes.  The point is that Obama will make more money available to the US gov via taxation.

Dos Equis

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2008, 08:56:32 AM »
Several respected economists have raised this point.  McCain missed the timing on this issue.
He will cut income taxes on 95% of people that pay taxes...thats the catch!
He is also giving tax credits to a great # who don't even pay taxes.  Thats wrong.

Also, it does not apply to his idea to raise capital gains, dividens, payroll, inheritance and marriage taxes.  The point is that Obama will make more money available to the US gov via taxation.

Ah so.  Thanks.  I agree we shouldn't be giving tax credits to people who don't pay taxes. 

slayer

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2008, 08:59:43 AM »
jeeez,

because niether ticket wants to alienate those 40 million people, you could not figure that out on your own?

Mccain will bring it up to his own crowd of nutcases at the ralleys but he would be mocking them on national tv...


was that really that hard to figure out?

Dos Equis

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 09:02:00 AM »
jeeez,

because niether ticket wants to alienate those 40 million people, you could not figure that out on your own?

Mccain will bring it up to his own crowd of nutcases at the ralleys but he would be mocking them on national tv...


was that really that hard to figure out?

Where did you get your "40 million people" figure from? 

drkaje

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 09:02:48 AM »
1-2% of Americans pay 39% of all taxes and around 40% pay nothing at all.

They are all liars and willing to manipulate the data in any way we're stupid enough to believe.

Remember what Disraeli wrote. There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics. :)

shootfighter1

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 09:24:22 AM »
Slayer, do you really believe people that don't pay taxes should get tax credits?  That is insane.

shootfighter1

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2008, 09:30:29 AM »
For the record, when Obama becomes president, I hope he does well and that some of our concerns are put to rest.  I hope he does not raise additional taxes beyond his current platform, though that is one of my fears.  I hope he swings more to the middle and is the candidate he was at the beginning of the race bringing people together.  I hope he is the president to all people not just some.  He must fight for all Americans, not just the poor or minority.  I hope he takes advantage of his unique position to reach out to many different Americans and help change our culture for the better.

I am excited to see more diplomacy and less $ spent fighting wars and I think he can improve our reputation internationally.  I just hope he doesn't push the country down a socialistic path...and makes only the regulations necessary when dealing with major issues in the private sector.  I am also encouraged that he is a supporter of stem cell research and wish to see more support in that area.

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 09:47:11 AM »
when 40 percent don't pay taxes?  This according to McCain on the campaign trail today.  If true, why the heck didn't he raise this during the debates? 

Then those 40 percents taxes wont get raised since they dont pay taxes dummies.  I own 2 businesses.  I dont pay Federal taxes.  I reinvest enough in my business so I dont give my money to the Feds to send overseas

Dos Equis

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2008, 11:42:21 AM »
For the record, when Obama becomes president, I hope he does well and that some of our concerns are put to rest.  I hope he does not raise additional taxes beyond his current platform, though that is one of my fears.  I hope he swings more to the middle and is the candidate he was at the beginning of the race bringing people together.  I hope he is the president to all people not just some.  He must fight for all Americans, not just the poor or minority.  I hope he takes advantage of his unique position to reach out to many different Americans and help change our culture for the better.

I am excited to see more diplomacy and less $ spent fighting wars and I think he can improve our reputation internationally.  I just hope he doesn't push the country down a socialistic path...and makes only the regulations necessary when dealing with major issues in the private sector.  I am also encouraged that he is a supporter of stem cell research and wish to see more support in that area.

Good comments.  I hope he succeeds as president if he wins the election, but I do think the kinds of things he wants to do will be bad for the country. 

If he wins, he will be a one-term president IMO.   

Dos Equis

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2008, 11:45:27 AM »
Then those 40 percents taxes wont get raised since they dont pay taxes dummies.  I own 2 businesses.  I dont pay Federal taxes.  I reinvest enough in my business so I dont give my money to the Feds to send overseas

The question was how do they get a tax cut if they don't pay taxes to begin with.  Shoot gave one plausible answer (carefully worded comments by Obama limiting tax cuts to those who actually pay taxes).  But I have heard Obama say repeatedly without qualification that 95 percent of Americans (or anyone who makes less than $250K a year) will get a tax cut.   

IFBBwannaB

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2008, 11:50:38 AM »
1-2% of Americans pay 39% of all taxes and around 40% pay nothing at all.

They are all liars and willing to manipulate the data in any way we're stupid enough to believe.

Remember what Disraeli wrote. There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics. :)

I'm quite sure that statistic is mostly a game of words for example:

Warren Buffet have X% of very large companies and they pay Y% of the taxes thus he pay his relative part in taxes.
On the surface seems the same but it's not.

Neurotoxin

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2008, 11:55:22 AM »
when 40 percent don't pay taxes?  This according to McCain on the campaign trail today.  If true, why the heck didn't he raise this during the debates? 



McCain admitted he knows LITTLE pertaining to economics.

what would you expect ?  ::)


NT

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2008, 11:59:35 AM »
when 40 percent don't pay taxes?  This according to McCain on the campaign trail today.  If true, why the heck didn't he raise this during the debates? 

BB - no offense intended but haven't you learned by now that McCain lies all the time.

I'm not trying to be partisan here but the guy who I once liked has become a pathological liar

Even your own instincts probably tell you that there's no way that 40% of American's don't pay any taxes.  

Anyone paid on a w-2 pays social security at the very least

Al Doggity

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2008, 12:04:54 PM »
Every working working person pays taxes. Payroll taxes . McCain was referring to annual federal income taxes.

That distinction is what makes the whole "1% of the rich pays 90% of the taxes " or whatever misleading. Payroll taxes of the 95% majority are far greater than the annual income taxes of the rich minority.

Dos Equis

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2008, 12:18:46 PM »
Wasn't Obama referring to federal income taxes too?  Is McCain's statement false? 

Straw Man

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2008, 12:24:31 PM »
Wasn't Obama referring to federal income taxes too?  Is McCain's statement false? 

I think both candidates position can be perceived as confusing and even by some standards misleading
but the problem is that most people can't pay attention long enough to digest a detailed explanation.

I'd love to see an hour long (or longer) explanation in detail of how we currently collect and spend OUR money and how each candidate would propose to change both the collection of taxes (and other forms of revenue) and how they would propose to change spending.  Unfortunately it will never happen and most people wouldn't watch so instead we get sound bites

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2008, 12:25:13 PM »
there's a chart that I have somewhere that shows how payroll taxes have risen over the past 50 years while corporate taxes have dropped.  It's quite clear that the tax burden was slowly shifted to the worker which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if there was a corresponding shift in services provided in relation to increased taxation.

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2008, 12:29:24 PM »
The question was how do they get a tax cut if they don't pay taxes to begin with.  Shoot gave one plausible answer (carefully worded comments by Obama limiting tax cuts to those who actually pay taxes).  But I have heard Obama say repeatedly without qualification that 95 percent of Americans (or anyone who makes less than $250K a year) will get a tax cut.   

THis is a common sense question....why do you play dumb?  95% of Americans fall into the category to get a TAX CUT or Stay the same...  so if 40% doesnt pay taxex... ahhh they fall into that bracket, butt they dont qualify..how hard is that to understand?

Al Doggity

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2008, 12:33:35 PM »
Wasn't Obama referring to federal income taxes too?  Is McCain's statement false? 

No. This is one of the reasons I've been so bothered by the Joe Plumber thing.
If you've read an analysis of Obama's tax plan, he's not really discussing cutting federal income taxes or "redistributing wealth"... the whole thing hinges on how much you have withheld. You'll be getting a percentage of that back.

Some conservative sites have been trying to make it appear as though his plan takes from the rich and gives to the poor, which isn't the case.

Dos Equis

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2008, 12:35:23 PM »
THis is a common sense question....why do you play dumb?  95% of Americans fall into the category to get a TAX CUT or Stay the same...  so if 40% doesnt pay taxex... ahhh they fall into that bracket, butt they dont qualify..how hard is that to understand?

The point you're missing is Obama said 95 percent will get a tax cut.  That's completely different from saying a person's taxes will not be increased.  Cutting and status quo are not synonymous.   

Dos Equis

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2008, 12:40:21 PM »
No. This is one of the reasons I've been so bothered by the Joe Plumber thing.
If you've read an analysis of Obama's tax plan, he's not really discussing cutting federal income taxes or "redistributing wealth"... the whole thing hinges on how much you have withheld. You'll be getting a percentage of that back.

Some conservative sites have been trying to make it appear as though his plan takes from the rich and gives to the poor, which isn't the case.

Why do you say "no" when withholdings involve federal income taxes?

You can deny his redistribution of wealth plan, but he said plain as day we need to "spread the wealth around."  Someone posted a clip or article a little while back of Michelle Obama talking about people getting a smaller piece of the pie so others can get theirs (or something like that).

What he is proposing is little more than the old liberal "targeted tax cuts."  It really is class warfare.   

Al Doggity

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2008, 12:47:09 PM »
Why do you say "no" when withholdings involve federal income taxes?


McCain's statement is only true if he is talking about annual federal taxes.
It is a complete lie if he is referring to withholdings.

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Dos Equis

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Re: How is Obama cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2008, 12:55:01 PM »
Read this.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/13/obama-tax-cut-refunds-those-who-dont-pay/print/

Busted you should read this. 

Thanks for posting this shoot.  Here is the story from the link:

Obama tax cut 'refunds' those who don't pay
Donald Lambro (Contact)
Barack Obama says he will give 95 percent of all American workers a tax cut but does not mention that his plan would send checks to tens of millions of tax filers who pay no personal income taxes - payments that critics say look "suspiciously like welfare."

Mr. Obama's campaign promise, which he has repeated in his speeches and in the presidential debates, stems from his "Making Work Pay" tax cut that will give a $500 refundable tax credit to every worker or $1,000 to each working couple. But because this provision in his economic-recovery plan is "refundable," a large number of middle- to lower-income workers who have no income-tax liability after taking tax credits and deductions the that Internal Revenue Service allows, will be given the equivalent of the tax cut in the form of direct payments from the U.S. Treasury - funded by higher-income taxpayers.

Because the IRS says that nearly 46 million tax filers - one-third of all filers - had no tax liability in 2006, there is the question of how millions of Americans can receive an income "tax cut" when they pay no taxes.

"It's got to raise alarm bells when you claim you are going to cut taxes for 95 percent of working families when more than 40 percent of them pay no income taxes," said Phil Kerpen, policy director at Americans for Prosperity, a grass-roots free-market advocacy group.

"What he's really talking about doing is mailing a check, and to me, that looks more like a welfare program than the kind of real tax relief that would encourage work, savings and investments," Mr. Kerpen said.

The freshman senator's campaign Web site defines the Democrat's tax-relief proposal only in terms of offering workers "middle class tax cuts" and "for 10 million low-income Americans, will completely eliminate their federal income taxes."

But in a recent research paper on federal taxpayers, Scott Hodge, president of the nonpartisan Tax Foundation, said, "There will be 47 million tax returns with zero-income tax liability in 2009 under current law. That's one-third of all tax returns and those 47 million tax returns represent 96 million individuals."

Mr. Obama repeatedly says in his speeches that almost all workers and "working families" will benefit from his "tax cuts." In last week's second presidential debate with Sen. John McCain in Nashville, Tenn., he said, "What I want to do is provide a middle-class tax cut to 95 percent of working Americans."

At another point in that debate, he enlarged the universe of his tax-cut recipients, saying, "I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of Americans."

Investor's Business Daily pointed out earlier this month that Mr. Obama's " 'working families' does not include all households. Throw in singles, retirees, students and the unemployed, and the share getting some tax-related benefit is a good deal less."

The Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan policy analysis group established by the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution, estimates that about 80 percent of households would receive a tax cut.

But Investor's Business Daily also questioned whether Mr. Obama's "tax cut" was really a tax cut for people who don't pay taxes.

"There's the difference, not acknowledged by the Obama camp, between a real tax cut and the type of 'tax relief' that looks suspiciously like welfare," the newspaper editorialized.

"A true tax 'cut' is a reduction in the taxes you're paying. In contrast, much of the 'relief' in Mr. Obama's plan consists of 'refundable credit' - payments you get even if you owe no taxes at all," the paper said.

The Obama campaign dismisses such criticism, arguing that even if many working taxpayers owe no income taxes, they pay Social Security payroll taxes out of their earnings. The campaign also notes that Mr. McCain's economic plan also includes refundable tax credits.

"Senator Obama believes that the tens of millions of families working hard and paying payroll taxes do not think that tax cuts are a form of 'welfare' or 'redistribution' - they think it is only fair to reward work," said Jason Furman, the Obama campaign's chief economic adviser.

"Evidently, John McCain, who also proposes to make his health tax credit refundable, appears to agree," Mr. Furman told The Washington Times.

"One can argue that while you don't pay income taxes, you are paying Social Security payroll taxes and this is a tax cut against that," said Roberton Williams, principal research associate at the Tax Policy Center. "It depends on whether you consider [the taxpayers'] income tax liability or their total federal tax liability."

Mr. Williams did not necessarily dispute critics of Mr. Obama's tax plan who maintain that his refundable tax plan is a form of income redistribution from wealthier taxpayers in the top tax bracket who would see their taxes raised to pay for tax relief for middle- and lower-income taxpayers.

Asked whether the transfer of taxes from high earners to middle- and low-income earners was a way of redistributing the nation's income, Mr. Williams said, "You could certainly view it that way because both [tax] proposals are in the same tax plan. There's no question that's one way to perceive the tax plan."

To pay for his middle-class tax cuts, Mr. Obama would raise the top marginal tax rate on Americans earning more than $250,000 to 35 percent from 30.6 percent. According to the IRS, the top 5 percent of all income earners in 2004 paid 57.13 percent of all income taxes.