Author Topic: Say HELLO to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama  (Read 9110 times)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #50 on: October 28, 2008, 08:51:28 AM »
I know it's graphic.  And I'm literally in tears after capturing the pics.  :'(  But I want you Obama fans to get this as vividly as can be.  This is the candidate who supports this type of procedure.  The Freedom of Choice Act will be one of the first executive orders that a potential Pres. Obama would exercise.  No one wants to cover this tragedy, but it's real people.  Obama will bring all of this back.   >:( Read this article and tell me if you can stomach supporting someone who will allow this to go on.  And don't give me any of the "but Bush....blah blah...the war....blah blah blah crap!!!!   >:( >:( >:( >:(

Commentary: Obama's Abortion Extremism
by Robert George

His views on life issues mark him as the most extreme pro-abortion candidate to have ever run on a major party ticket.

Barack Obama is the most extreme pro-abortion candidate ever to seek the office of President of the United States. He is the most extreme pro-abortion member of the United States Senate. Indeed, he is the most extreme pro-abortion legislator ever to serve in either house of the United States Congress.

Yet there are Catholics and Evangelicals — even self-identified pro-life Catholics and Evangelicals — who aggressively promote Obama's candidacy and even declare him the preferred candidate from the pro-life point of view.

What is going on here?

I have examined the arguments advanced by Obama's self-identified pro-life supporters, and they are spectacularly weak. It is nearly unfathomable to me that those advancing them can honestly believe what they are saying. But before proving my claims about Obama's abortion extremism, let me explain why I have described Obama as 'pro-abortion' rather than 'pro-choice.'

According to the standard argument for the distinction between these labels, nobody is pro-abortion. Everybody would prefer a world without abortions. After all, what woman would deliberately get pregnant just to have an abortion? But given the world as it is, sometimes women find themselves with unplanned pregnancies at times in their lives when having a baby would present significant problems for them. So even if abortion is not medically required, it should be permitted, made as widely available as possible and, when necessary, paid for with taxpayers' money.

The defect in this argument can easily be brought into focus if we shift to the moral question that vexed an earlier generation of Americans: slavery. Many people at the time of the American founding would have preferred a world without slavery but nonetheless opposed abolition. Such people — Thomas Jefferson was one — reasoned that, given the world as it was, with slavery woven into the fabric of society just as it had often been throughout history, the economic consequences of abolition for society as a whole and for owners of plantations and other businesses that relied on slave labor would be dire. Many people who argued in this way were not monsters but honest and sincere, albeit profoundly mistaken. Some (though not Jefferson) showed their personal opposition to slavery by declining to own slaves themselves or freeing slaves whom they had purchased or inherited. They certainly didn't think anyone should be forced to own slaves. Still, they maintained that slavery should remain a legally permitted option and be given constitutional protection.

Would we describe such people, not as pro-slavery, but as 'pro-choice'? Of course we would not. It wouldn't matter to us that they were 'personally opposed' to slavery, or that they wished that slavery were 'unnecessary,' or that they wouldn't dream of forcing anyone to own slaves. We would hoot at the faux sophistication of a placard that said 'Against slavery? Don't own one.' We would observe that the fundamental divide is between people who believe that law and public power should permit slavery, and those who think that owning slaves is an unjust choice that should be prohibited.

Just for the sake of argument, though, let us assume that there could be a morally meaningful distinction between being 'pro-abortion' and being 'pro-choice.' Who would qualify for the latter description? Barack Obama certainly would not. For, unlike his running mate Joe Biden, Obama does not think that abortion is a purely private choice that public authority should refrain from getting involved in. Now, Senator Biden is hardly pro-life. He believes that the killing of the unborn should be legally permitted and relatively unencumbered. But unlike Obama, at least Biden has sometimes opposed using taxpayer dollars to fund abortion, thereby leaving Americans free to choose not to implicate themselves in it. If we stretch things to create a meaningful category called 'pro-choice,' then Biden might be a plausible candidate for the label; at least on occasions when he respects your choice or mine not to facilitate deliberate feticide.

The same cannot be said for Barack Obama. For starters, he supports legislation that would repeal the Hyde Amendment, which protects pro-life citizens from having to pay for abortions that are not necessary to save the life of the mother and are not the result of rape or incest. The abortion industry laments that this longstanding federal law, according to the pro-abortion group NARAL, "forces about half the women who would otherwise have abortions to carry unintended pregnancies to term and bear children against their wishes instead." In other words, a whole lot of people who are alive today would have been exterminated in utero were it not for the Hyde Amendment. Obama has promised to reverse the situation so that abortions that the industry complains are not happening (because the federal government is not subsidizing them) would happen. That is why people who profit from abortion love Obama even more than they do his running mate.

But this barely scratches the surface of Obama's extremism. He has promised that 'the first thing I'd do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act' (known as FOCA). This proposed legislation would create a federally guaranteed "fundamental right" to abortion through all nine months of pregnancy, including, as Cardinal Justin Rigali of Philadelphia has noted in a statement condemning the proposed Act, 'a right to abort a fully developed child in the final weeks for undefined 'health' reasons.' In essence, FOCA would abolish virtually every existing state and federal limitation on abortion, including parental consent and notification laws for minors, state and federal funding restrictions on abortion, and conscience protections for pro-life citizens working in the health-care industry-protections against being forced to participate in the practice of abortion or else lose their jobs. The pro-abortion National Organization for Women has proclaimed with approval that FOCA would "sweep away hundreds of anti-abortion laws [and] policies."

It gets worse. Obama, unlike even many 'pro-choice' legislators, opposed the ban on partial-birth abortions when he served in the Illinois legislature and condemned the Supreme Court decision that upheld legislation banning this heinous practice. He has referred to a baby conceived inadvertently by a young woman as a 'punishment' that she should not endure. He has stated that women's equality requires access to abortion on demand. Appallingly, he wishes to strip federal funding from pro-life crisis pregnancy centers that provide alternatives to abortion for pregnant women in need. There is certainly nothing 'pro-choice' about that.

But it gets even worse. Senator Obama, despite the urging of pro-life members of his own party, has not endorsed or offered support for the Pregnant Women Support Act, the signature bill of Democrats for Life, meant to reduce abortions by providing assistance for women facing crisis pregnancies. In fact, Obama has opposed key provisions of the Act, including providing coverage of unborn children in the State Children's Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP), and informed consent for women about the effects of abortion and the gestational age of their child. This legislation would not make a single abortion illegal. It simply seeks to make it easier for pregnant women to make the choice not to abort their babies. Here is a concrete test of whether Obama is "pro-choice" rather than pro-abortion. He flunked. Even Senator Edward Kennedy voted to include coverage of unborn children in S-CHIP. But Barack Obama stood resolutely with the most stalwart abortion advocates in opposing it.

It gets worse yet. In an act of breathtaking injustice which the Obama campaign lied about until critics produced documentary proof of what he had done, as an Illinois state senator Obama opposed legislation to protect children who are born alive, either as a result of an abortionist's unsuccessful effort to kill them in the womb, or by the deliberate delivery of the baby prior to viability. This legislation would not have banned any abortions. Indeed, it included a specific provision ensuring that it did not affect abortion laws. (This is one of the points Obama and his campaign lied about until they were caught.) The federal version of the bill passed unanimously in the United States Senate, winning the support of such ardent advocates of legal abortion as John Kerry and Barbara Boxer. But Barack Obama opposed it and worked to defeat it. For him, a child marked for abortion gets no protection-even ordinary medical or comfort care-even if she is born alive and entirely separated from her mother. So Obama has favored protecting what is literally a form of infanticide.

You may be thinking, it can't get worse than that. But it does.

For several years, Americans have been debating the use for biomedical research of embryos produced by in vitro fertilization (originally for reproductive purposes) but now left in a frozen condition in cryopreservation units. President Bush has restricted the use of federal funds for stem-cell research of the type that makes use of these embryos and destroys them in the process. I support the President's restriction, but some legislators with excellent pro-life records, including John McCain, argue that the use of federal money should be permitted where the embryos are going to be discarded or die anyway as the result of the parents' decision. Senator Obama, too, wants to lift the restriction.

But Obama would not stop there. He has co-sponsored a bill-strongly opposed by McCain-that would authorize the large-scale industrial production of human embryos for use in biomedical research in which they would be killed. In fact, the bill Obama co-sponsored would effectively require the killing of human beings in the embryonic stage that were produced by cloning. It would make it a federal crime for a woman to save an embryo by agreeing to have the tiny developing human being implanted in her womb so that he or she could be brought to term. This "clone and kill" bill would, if enacted, bring something to America that has heretofore existed only in China-the equivalent of legally mandated abortion. In an audacious act of deceit, Obama and his co-sponsors misleadingly call this an anti-cloning bill. But it is nothing of the kind. What it bans is not cloning, but allowing the embryonic children produced by cloning to survive.

Can it get still worse? Yes.

Decent people of every persuasion hold out the increasingly realistic hope of resolving the moral issue surrounding embryonic stem-cell research by developing methods to produce the exact equivalent of embryonic stem cells without using (or producing) embryos. But when a bill was introduced in the United States Senate to put a modest amount of federal money into research to develop these methods, Barack Obama was one of the few senators who opposed it. From any rational vantage point, this is unconscionable. Why would someone not wish to find a method of producing the pluripotent cells scientists want that all Americans could enthusiastically endorse? Why create and kill human embryos when there are alternatives that do not require the taking of nascent human lives? It is as if Obama is opposed to stem-cell research unless it involves killing human embryos.

This ultimate manifestation of Obama's extremism brings us back to the puzzle of his pro-life Catholic and Evangelical apologists.

They typically do not deny the facts I have reported. They could not; each one is a matter of public record. But despite Obama's injustices against the most vulnerable human beings, and despite the extraordinary support he receives from the industry that profits from killing the unborn (which should be a good indicator of where he stands), some Obama supporters insist that he is the better candidate from the pro-life point of view.

They say that his economic and social policies would so diminish the demand for abortion that the overall number would actually go down-despite the federal subsidizing of abortion and the elimination of hundreds of pro-life laws. The way to save lots of unborn babies, they say, is to vote for the pro-abortion-oops! 'pro-choice'-candidate. They tell us not to worry that Obama opposes the Hyde Amendment, the Mexico City Policy (against funding abortion abroad), parental consent and notification laws, conscience protections, and the funding of alternatives to embryo-destructive research. They ask us to look past his support for Roe v. Wade, the Freedom of Choice Act, partial-birth abortion, and human cloning and embryo-killing. An Obama presidency, they insist, means less killing of the unborn.

This is delusional.

We know that the federal and state pro-life laws and policies that Obama has promised to sweep away (and that John McCain would protect) save thousands of lives every year. Studies conducted by Professor Michael New and other social scientists have removed any doubt. Often enough, the abortion lobby itself confirms the truth of what these scholars have determined. Tom McClusky has observed that Planned Parenthood's own statistics show that in each of the seven states that have FOCA-type legislation on the books, "abortion rates have increased while the national rate has decreased." In Maryland, where a bill similar to the one favored by Obama was enacted in 1991, he notes that "abortion rates have increased by 8 percent while the overall national abortion rate decreased by 9 percent." No one is really surprised. After all, the message clearly conveyed by policies such as those Obama favors is that abortion is a legitimate solution to the problem of unwanted pregnancies -- so clearly legitimate that taxpayers should be forced to pay for it.

But for a moment let's suppose, against all the evidence, that Obama's proposals would reduce the number of abortions, even while subsidizing the killing with taxpayer dollars. Even so, many more unborn human beings would likely be killed under Obama than under McCain. A Congress controlled by strong Democratic majorities under Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi would enact the bill authorizing the mass industrial production of human embryos by cloning for research in which they are killed. As president, Obama would sign it. The number of tiny humans created and killed under this legislation (assuming that an efficient human cloning technique is soon perfected) could dwarf the number of lives saved as a result of the reduced demand for abortion-even if we take a delusionally optimistic view of what that number would be.

Barack Obama and John McCain differ on many important issues about which reasonable people of goodwill, including pro-life Americans of every faith, disagree: how best to fight international terrorism, how to restore economic growth and prosperity, how to distribute the tax burden and reduce poverty, etc.

But on abortion and the industrial creation of embryos for destructive research, there is a profound difference of moral principle, not just prudence. These questions reveal the character and judgment of each man. Barack Obama is deeply committed to the belief that members of an entire class of human beings have no rights that others must respect. Across the spectrum of pro-life concerns for the unborn, he would deny these small and vulnerable members of the human family the basic protection of the laws. Over the next four to eight years, as many as five or even six U.S. Supreme Court justices could retire. Obama enthusiastically supports Roe v. Wade and would appoint judges who would protect that morally and constitutionally disastrous decision and even expand its scope. Indeed, in an interview in Glamour magazine, he made it clear that he would apply a litmus test for Supreme Court nominations: jurists who do not support Roe will not be considered for appointment by Obama. John McCain, by contrast, opposes Roe and would appoint judges likely to overturn it. This would not make abortion illegal, but it would return the issue to the forums of democratic deliberation, where pro-life Americans could engage in a fair debate to persuade fellow citizens that killing the unborn is no way to address the problems of pregnant women in need.

What kind of America do we want our beloved nation to be? Barack Obama's America is one in which being human just isn't enough to warrant care and protection. It is an America where the unborn may legitimately be killed without legal restriction, even by the grisly practice of partial-birth abortion. It is an America where a baby who survives abortion is not even entitled to comfort care as she dies on a stainless steel table or in a soiled linen bin. It is a nation in which some members of the human family are regarded as inferior and others superior in fundamental dignity and rights. In Obama's America, public policy would make a mockery of the great constitutional principle of the equal protection of the law. In perhaps the most telling comment made by any candidate in either party in this election year, Senator Obama, when asked by Rick Warren when a baby gets human rights, replied: 'that question is above my pay grade.' It was a profoundly disingenuous answer: For even at a state senator's pay grade, Obama presumed to answer that question with blind certainty. His unspoken answer then, as now, is chilling: human beings have no rights until infancy — and if they are unwanted survivors of attempted abortions, not even then.

In the end, the efforts of Obama's apologists to depict their man as the true pro-life candidate that Catholics and Evangelicals may and even should vote for, doesn't even amount to a nice try. Voting for the most extreme pro-abortion political candidate in American history is not the way to save unborn babies.

Robert P. George is McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence and director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University.

I tried explaining this to the cult members and they could care less.  The Obambots are no different than the Jim Jones and Charles Manson cult.

Colossus_500

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2008, 08:55:22 AM »
The "Freedom for Partial-Birth Abortionists Act" --
Pro-Abortion Lawmakers Propose "FOCA" to Invalidate All Limits on Abortion

WASHINGTON (April 25, 2007) – In response to the April 18 U.S. Supreme Court decision upholding the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, prominent Democratic members of Congress the next day reintroduced the so-called "Freedom of Choice Act" (FOCA), a proposed federal law to nullify virtually all federal and state limitations on abortion.

NRLC Legislative Director Douglas Johnson commented, "In the interests of truth in advertising, the bill should be renamed the ‘Freedom for Partial-Birth Abortionists Act'."

The House bill, H.R. 1964, was introduced by Congressman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), who in the new Democratic-majority Congress is the chairman of the House Judiciary subcommittee that has jurisdiction over such legislation.  At NRL News deadline on April 25, his bill had 71 cosponsors  (70 Democrats, one Republican).  (To view an always-current list of co-sponsors, arranged by state, click here.)

The Senate bill, S. 1173, introduced by Senator Barbara Boxer (D-Ca.), had 13 Democratic cosponsors, including presidential candidate Sen. Hillary Clinton (NY), plus independent Joseph Lieberman (Ct.).  (To view an always-current list of co-sponsors, arranged by state, click here.)

The lawmakers proposing the legislation, and groups endorsing it, repeatedly emphasized that the bill would, among other things, completely nullify the national ban on partial-birth abortion that the Supreme Court upheld on April 18 in Gonzales v. Carhart.

Congressman Nadler issued a statement harshly attacking the Supreme Court ruling.  "Overturning a decision only a few years old, the Court has, for the first time since Roe v. Wade, allowed an abortion procedure to be criminalized," Nadler said.  The FOCA, he noted, "would bar government – at any level -- from interfering with a woman's fundamental right to choose to bear a child, or to terminate a pregnancy."

Kim Gandy, president of the National Organization for Women, also tied the FOCA directly to the Supreme Court ruling, explaining in an e-mailed alert that the bill "would legislatively reverse the Court's damaging decision and will enshrine in federal law our right to safe, legal abortion. . . . Our ultimate success depends on electing a president who will sign the legislation and electing a Congress that can withstand any challenge or filibuster."

"Those promoting this bill intend to use it as a litmus test for those who seek congressional office, or the White House, and as a fund-raising tool," NRLC's Douglas Johnson explained.  "They know they cannot enact anything like this, so long as a pro-life president is in the White House."

Not Only a "Codification of Roe"

The promoters of the FOCA sometimes claim that its purpose is to "codify Roe v. Wade," the 1973 Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion on demand.  But the key binding provisions of the bill would go further than Roe, invalidating all of the major types of pro-life laws that have been upheld by the Supreme Court in the decades since Roe.

"The claim that the bill would ‘codify Roe' is just a marketing gimmick by the proponents," explained Johnson.  "The sponsors hope that journalists and legislators will lazily accept that vague shorthand phrase – but it is very misleading.  The references to Roe in the bill are in non-binding, discursive clauses.  The heart of the bill is a ban that would nullify all of the major types of pro-life laws that the Supreme Court has said are permissible under Roe v. Wade, including the ban on partial-birth abortions and bans on government funding of abortion."

The bill flatly invalidates any "statute, ordinance, regulation, administrative order, decision, policy, practice, or other action" of any federal, state, or local government or governmental official (or any person acting under government authority) that would "deny or interfere with a woman's right to choose" abortion, or that would "discriminate against the exercise of the right . . . in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information."

This no-restriction policy would establish, in Senator Boxer's words, "the absolute right to choose" prior to fetal "viability."

The no-restriction policy would also apply after "viability" to any abortion sought on grounds of "health."  The bill does not define "health," but in some past abortion cases the Supreme Court has sometimes used the term to apply to any physical or emotional consideration whatsoever, including "distress."

The term "viability" is usually understood to refer to the point at which a baby's lungs are developed to the point that he or she can in fact survive independently of the mother – currently, about 23 or 24 weeks.  However, the bill contains no objective criteria for "viability," but rather, requires that the judgment regarding "viability" be left entirely in the hands of  "the attending physician" – which is to say, the abortionist.

The bill also prohibits any government actions that would "deny or interfere with a woman's right to choose to bear a child," but supporters of the bills have not cited any actual laws that would be invalidated by that provision.
Effects Admitted by Supporters

In a factsheet posted on its website, the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA) explains, "FOCA will supercede anti-choice laws that restrict the right to choose, including laws that prohibit the public funding of abortions for poor women or counseling and referrals for abortions. Additionally, FOCA will prohibit onerous restrictions on a woman's right to choose, such as mandated delays and targeted and medically unnecessary regulations."

In addition, PPFA explained, "Parental consent or notification statutes have been used as a tool to deny access to abortion services for minors. When such laws deny or interfere with the ability of minors to access abortion services, they would violate FOCA."

(About half of the states have parental notification or consent laws in effect, which the Supreme Court has said are permitted under Roe v. Wade as long as they meet certain requirements, including availability of judges to authorize abortions without parental notification or consent.)

In a press release issued when she introduced the FOCA in 2004, Senator Boxer gave a number of examples of current laws that would be invalidated by the bill, including:

-- Laws restricting government funding of abortion.  (The Hyde Amendment prohibits federal funding of most abortions, and many states have similar laws.  The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1980 that these laws do not violate Roe v. Wade.)

-- Laws prohibiting abortions in public hospitals.  (The Supreme Court ruled in 1977 that such policies do not violate Roe v. Wade.)

-- Laws requiring that girls and women seeking abortion receive certain information on matters such as fetal development and alternatives to abortion, and then wait a specified period before the abortion is actually performed, usually 24 or 48 hours.  In her press release, Boxer referred to these as "antichoice propaganda lectures." (The Supreme Court said in its 1992 Casey ruling that such regulations are constitutional as long as they do not impose an "undue burden" on obtaining an abortion.)
 
Other Effects

NRLC's Johnson said that a number of other types of laws also would clearly be invalidated by the bill:

-- All laws allowing doctors, nurses, or other state-licensed professionals, and hospitals or other health-care providers, to decline to provide or pay for abortions. (Such "conscience rights" with respect to abortion are generally protected by certain federal laws, and by the laws in many states.  Supporters of the laws usually call them "conscience laws," but pro-abortion groups refer to them as "refusal clauses.")

-- All laws prohibiting medical personnel other than licensed physicians from performing abortions would be invalid because they may "interfere with" access to abortion.  (All but a handful of states currently enforce such "doctor-only" laws, which are specifically authorized in Roe v. Wade itself.)

-- The provision of the FOCA that prohibits any government agency or official from taking any action that would "discriminate against the exercise of" the FOCA-created legal rights, with respect to any "benefits, facilities, services, or information," would leave government officials open to lawsuits for anything that anybody thought "discriminate(s)" against abortion.  Johnson observed, "This sweeping mandate could cover everything from rural health clinics, to health education programs in public schools – and even to pro-life speeches by public officials."

History of the FOCA

An earlier version of the FOCA was pushed by pro-abortion forces beginning in the late 1980s, when they feared that the Supreme Court was preparing to overturn Roe v. Wade.  When President Clinton, a FOCA supporter, took office in January 1993, Planned Parenthood predicted that the FOCA would be law within six months.  But the bill died after an education and lobbying campaign, led by NRLC, persuaded many pro-Roe lawmakers that the bill went beyond Roe and would strike down many state laws that had broad support.

Johnson noted that during the debates over the FOCA in the early 1990s, many proponents of the bill often tried to deny some of its more radical effects – effects that they have already admitted with respect to the new bill, such as the invalidation of all restrictions on government funding of abortion.

The original FOCA faded from view after Republicans took control of the House of Representatives in the 1994 election.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2008, 08:55:56 AM »
I thought late term abortions are illegal unless the health of the mother was at risk.

The "health of the mother" is a joke.  What constitutes the "health"?????

A headache???
A running nose???
A back ache???

Obama should rot in hell for being favor of this outright murder of the practically already born.

He is the angel of death to the unborn.

Colossus_500

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Re: Say Hello to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2008, 08:59:18 AM »
A breakdown of the Freedom of Choice Act:

Sponsored by Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), the so-called "Freedom of Choice Act" (FOCA), the so-called "Freedom of Choice Act" (FOCA) would invalidate any federal, state, or local government law, regulation, policy, or action that would "deny or interfere with" a woman's access to abortion prior to "viability," or which would "discriminate against the exercise of" this right in the regulation or provision of any "benefits, facilities, services, or information."  This ban would apply absolutely prior to fetal "viability," and also apply after "viability" to any abortion sought on grounds of "health," which is not defined in the bill and which therefore would include any physical or emotional factor whatsoever.  Although sometimes referred to as a bill to "codify Roe v. Wade," this is misleading, because -- the sponsors of the bill have acknowledged that it would invalidate many laws that have been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court under Roe v. Wade, including laws restricting government funding of abortion, limits on abortion in public or military faclities, full-disclosure counseling requirements, and bans on partial-birth abortion.  It would also invalidate all laws requiring parental or judicial notification or consent for abortions performed on minors, laws that permit health care providers to opt out of participation in abortion on conscience grounds, laws prohibiting non-physicians from performing abortions, and waiting periods.  The House companion bill, sponsored by Senator Barbara Boxer (D-Ca.), is S. 1173.


OzmO

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Re: Say HELLO to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #54 on: October 28, 2008, 09:08:12 AM »
I don't like this.  Anything after the first trimester should be banned except when the mother's life is in danger.

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2008, 09:25:30 AM »
The "health of the mother" is a joke.  

Maybe you are unaware of the numbers of women who still die due to complications of pregnancy.

Or unaware that the USA ranks amongst the worst of all first world nations in child mortality, so it is a more pressing issue there.

Also, rates of women dying due to pregnancy complications/childbirth is raising as well, not decreasing.

I know someone who had a problem pregnancy, was greatly advised to end it and decided to tough it out. Baby died. So did she. Very sad case, especially for her older child who is now motherless.

Health maybe overused, but it is perfectly valid in many cases. Either way, McCain chipped of his female vote some more with that callous comment.

Colossus_500

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2008, 09:27:15 AM »
Maybe you are unaware of the numbers of women who still die due to complications of pregnancy.

Or unaware that the USA ranks amongst the worst of all first world nations in child mortality, so it is a more pressing issue there.

Also, rates of women dying due to pregnancy complications/childbirth is raising as well, not decreasing.

I know someone who had a problem pregnancy, was greatly advised to end it and decided to tough it out. Baby died. So did she. Very sad case, especially for her older child who is now motherless.

Health maybe overused, but it is perfectly valid in many cases. Either way, McCain chipped of his female vote some more with that callous comment.
Are you aware of the rising number of complications stemming from abortion?

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2008, 09:31:22 AM »
The "health of the mother" is a joke.  What constitutes the "health"?????

A headache???
A running nose???
A back ache???

Obama should rot in hell for being favor of this outright murder of the practically already born.

He is the angel of death to the unborn.

You make foolish statements.  Look up Ectopic Pregnancy.  Look up Pregnancy complications and/or problems.

Abortion is a rotten decision that some people are saddled with.

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2008, 09:33:43 AM »
Maybe you are unaware of the numbers of women who still die due to complications of pregnancy.

Or unaware that the USA ranks amongst the worst of all first world nations in child mortality, so it is a more pressing issue there.

Also, rates of women dying due to pregnancy complications/childbirth is raising as well, not decreasing.

I know someone who had a problem pregnancy, was greatly advised to end it and decided to tough it out. Baby died. So did she. Very sad case, especially for her older child who is now motherless.

Health maybe overused, but it is perfectly valid in many cases. Either way, McCain chipped of his female vote some more with that callous comment.


I was referring to the cases of live birth where basically the baby is already born and the doctor is not allowed to give aide to the born baby. 

your points are definately valid, I was referring to the live-birth abortion issue.

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2008, 09:44:28 AM »

I was referring to the cases of live birth where basically the baby is already born and the doctor is not allowed to give aide to the born baby. 

your points are definately valid, I was referring to the live-birth abortion issue.

I see.  I don't know enough about live-birth abortions.  I thought RvW regulates abortion where in the 3rd trimester, an abortion can only be performed if the health of the mother is at risk.

Colossus_500

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Re: Say HELLO to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2008, 11:49:37 AM »
***bump***

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2008, 11:51:33 AM »

I was referring to the cases of live birth where basically the baby is already born and the doctor is not allowed to give aide to the born baby. 

your points are definately valid, I was referring to the live-birth abortion issue.


Off topic, but thank you for the polite and rational response. It's so rare here that I am forced to mention my appreciation 8)

CQ

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2008, 12:05:31 PM »
Are you aware of the rising number of complications stemming from abortion?

Not really on my point.

And I believed I asked you before...since you are so keen on kids/protection etc I was interested in whether you foster children? As I am sure you know there are tens of thousands of kids who are not wanted and stuck in homes, very sad etc.

I am touchy on this subject, as I am a foster parent, have seen tons of kids homes in different nations [it's not pretty trust me] and while people rail againest abortion, seems few want to step up to the plate and actually *do* something. Just want to take away females choice while doing piss all to help all these unwanted kids already here and suffering. Talk is cheap. Not directed at you per se btw, just my meltdown...

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2008, 12:27:31 PM »
Not really on my point.

And I believed I asked you before...since you are so keen on kids/protection etc I was interested in whether you foster children? As I am sure you know there are tens of thousands of kids who are not wanted and stuck in homes, very sad etc.

I am touchy on this subject, as I am a foster parent, have seen tons of kids homes in different nations [it's not pretty trust me] and while people rail againest abortion, seems few want to step up to the plate and actually *do* something. Just want to take away females choice while doing piss all to help all these unwanted kids already here and suffering. Talk is cheap. Not directed at you per se btw, just my meltdown...

Are you saying people who don't take in foster kids should not complain about abortion, shouldn't be pro life, etc.? 

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2008, 12:34:03 PM »
Are you saying people who don't take in foster kids should not complain about abortion, shouldn't be pro life, etc.? 

I am saying talk is cheap.

And it is.

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2008, 12:49:15 PM »
I am saying talk is cheap.

And it is.

Answer the question...

So are you saying everyone against abortion should take in foster kids?

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2008, 12:58:26 PM »
I am saying talk is cheap.

And it is.

Talk is cheap, but I don't really see a correlation between a person's views on abortion and taking in foster kids.  A person doesn't forfeit the right to an opinion or "talk" if they don't take in foster kids, adopt, etc.


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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2008, 01:02:39 PM »
Not really on my point.

And I believed I asked you before...since you are so keen on kids/protection etc I was interested in whether you foster children? As I am sure you know there are tens of thousands of kids who are not wanted and stuck in homes, very sad etc.

I am touchy on this subject, as I am a foster parent, have seen tons of kids homes in different nations [it's not pretty trust me] and while people rail againest abortion, seems few want to step up to the plate and actually *do* something. Just want to take away females choice while doing piss all to help all these unwanted kids already here and suffering. Talk is cheap. Not directed at you per se btw, just my meltdown...
First things first, CQ.  I applaud you for being a foster parent.  :)   This country needs more people with a heart like yours.  My wife and I have often contemplated being foster parents or adopting children once our 4 children are grown and out of the house.  The empty nest syndrome scares us (at least it does right now).  And you're right, it is VERY SAD to know that there are so many unwanted and unloved children in the world.  If the government would get out of the way and allow faith-based organizations to take over the adoption and foster care system, we'd be much better off.  Having said that, I would think that you'd be an adversary of abortion knowing of the many success stories that come from foster homes.  At least these kids get a chance at life as opposed to being snuffed out as if they never existed.  

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Re: Say HELLO to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2008, 01:40:28 PM »
DAWG

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Re: Say HELLO to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2008, 02:27:55 PM »

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Re: Say HELLO to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2008, 02:28:28 PM »
SHOCKING

much better to wait until they're over 18 to abort them

::) ::) ::)

big L dawg

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Re: Say HELLO to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2008, 02:30:45 PM »


nice double standard
DAWG

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Re: Say HELLO to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2008, 10:15:00 AM »


nice double standard
The Daily KOS? Yep, it sure is.

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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2008, 02:34:08 PM »
I tried explaining this to the cult members and they could care less.  The Obambots are no different than the Jim Jones and Charles Manson cult.

you forgot the Jesus cult followers.
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Re: Say Goodbye to the Freedom of Choice Act under a Pres. Obama
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2008, 03:00:08 PM »

you forgot the Jesus cult followers.

They are no different either.  However, Obama's followers show very similar traits to cult followers, just like the religious cult like followers.

I have never seen in my life people get so angry, so defensive, so irrate, when you simply point out to them flaws and obvious problems with their messiah (Obama).   

Some of my friends who are voting for this clown literally fly into a rage when I simply point out basic facts that blow up their media created image of Obama.  They are like people possesed.