Civilian Security Force? WTF?!

[w8tlftr]

SINO.

They were never socialists.  They were fascists pure and simple.  The marriage of big business and government run by a dictator.  Seems almost obvious...

I respectfully disagree with you, Decker.

Hitler and Mussolini were state socialists.

Tell me, did Hitler and Mussolini run big business in their countries or did big business run them?

Here's some interesting reading: http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

Not exactly conservative principals that promote individualism, freedom, or liberty are they?

[Hugo Chavez]

Not everything that falls under the term "national security" involves armed forces.  That's nothing new.  He was talking about groups like the peace corps and the actual criticism is that it's a big bill for the government to expand these corps.  That's all fact, I'm not making it up, he's not talking about armed civilian forces.
[/quote


Christ ur so hypocritical...if Bush said anything like this u'd be racing for the bunker. This whole thing is in regards to establishing a peacekeeping force to deal with places like Iraq. Instead of the US military doing it, u'd have some civilian agency. They'd be a mix of civil servants and armed security folks as well as civil capacity (US AID) agencies that would help rebuild countries. Great except its ridiculous and would elach man power away from both the military and those agencies already doing those jobs.

I take it you didn't watch the full video I posted, stickied at the top of the forum

[Decker]

I respectfully disagree with you, Decker.

FUCK YOU!.... I'm sorry.  I thought that was funny considering civility seems to be the first casualty on these boards.

Hitler and Mussolini were state socialists.

Tell me, did Hitler and Mussolini run big business in their countries or did big business run them?

Here's some interesting reading: http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

Not exactly conservative principals that promote individualism, freedom, or liberty are they?

Hitler garnered political support (he was elected in a free election) by lying to the people when he said he'd work with unions and provide a socialist agenda.  He broke every promise he made in that respect and implemented the corporitization of the german government.

Hitler was practically deified.  He ran the country with an iron hand.

Hitler was a socialist like Bush was a Uniter.

"Hitler had a deep hatred of the Social Democratic party, which he believed "fostered class conflicts at the expense of national unity" (Bullock 42). In Mein Kampf, he outlines his distaste of the Social Democratic movement, being turned off by their hostility towards the maintenance of Germanism in Austria (31) and their opposition to social demands by the working class (35-36). The Social Democratic Party remained antagonistic and disparaging to Hitler; he believed that "...the working men were the victims of a deliberate system for corrupting and poisoning the popular mind, organized by the Social Democratic Party's leaders, who cynically exploited the distress of the masses" for their political gains (Bullock 38). Hitler was also critical of the Social Democrats for their dependence on internationalization and foreign trade. With this in mind, it is no wonder that Hitler believed that Jews were the leaders of Social Democracy and therefore to be hated (Hitler, Mein Kampf 43)."

Where were all the unions Hitler set up in his socialist Germany?

He was a dictatorial fascist.

"Hitler was not a socialist in the strict sense of the word; this can be shown by his definition of 'socialist', which differs from the norm:

Whoever is prepared to make the national cause his own to such an extent that he knows no higher ideal than the welfare of his nation; whoever has understood our great national anthem, Deutschland, Deutschland, über Alles, to mean that nothing in the wide world surpasses in his eyes this Germany, people and land, land and people — that man is a Socialist. (Bullock 76)

Hitler's meaning of socialism, therefore did not refer to a specific economic system, but to "an instinct for national self-preservation" (Fischer 125) or nationalism. Concerning the Socialist aspects of the 25-Point program, Hitler made promises "because in 1920, the German working class and the lower middle classes were saturated in a radical anti-capitalism; such phrases were essential for any politician who wanted to attract their support" (Bullock 75).

Hitler had an overall disregard for the masses and refused to accept trade unions or the working classes. Once Hitler was in power, he broke all promises he had made to the workers. Hitler and the Nazi Party did away with collective bargaining and the right to strike. He replaced trade unions with an organization called the 'Labor Front', but this organization was fundamentally a tool of the Nazi Party and did not operate in the workers' favor. According to the law that created the Labor Front, "Its task is to see that every individual should be able to perform the maximum of work" (Kangas 13)."
http://mattbrundage.com/publications/hitler-democracy.php

Again, he's a lot closer to Modern Conservativism than Socialism.

[w8tlftr]

FUCK YOU!.... I'm sorry.  I thought that was funny considering civility seems to be the first casualty on these boards.

LOL

Hitler garnered political support (he was elected in a free election) by lying to the people when he said he'd work with unions and provide a socialist agenda.  He broke every promise he made in that respect and implemented the corporitization of the german government.

Hitler was practically deified.  He ran the country with an iron hand.

Hitler was a socialist like Bush was a Uniter.

Yes but in the end the state still ran everything the corporations did not nor did the people. It was Mussolini that said fascism should really be called corporatism but the bitch about it is that state is calling all of the shots. Just like Hugo Chavez is calling the shots in Venezuela.

"Hitler had a deep hatred of the Social Democratic party, which he believed "fostered class conflicts at the expense of national unity" (Bullock 42). In Mein Kampf, he outlines his distaste of the Social Democratic movement, being turned off by their hostility towards the maintenance of Germanism in Austria (31) and their opposition to social demands by the working class (35-36). The Social Democratic Party remained antagonistic and disparaging to Hitler; he believed that "...the working men were the victims of a deliberate system for corrupting and poisoning the popular mind, organized by the Social Democratic Party's leaders, who cynically exploited the distress of the masses" for their political gains (Bullock 38). Hitler was also critical of the Social Democrats for their dependence on internationalization and foreign trade. With this in mind, it is no wonder that Hitler believed that Jews were the leaders of Social Democracy and therefore to be hated (Hitler, Mein Kampf 43)."

Hitler, spoken to Otto Strasser, Berlin, May 21, 1930: I am a Socialist, and a very different kind of Socialist from your rich friend, Count Reventlow. . . . What you understand by Socialism is nothing more than Marxism.

I think you hit nail on the head, somewhat. From what I've read a lot of his issues with socialism (during his rise to power) and communism was that he sincerely believed it was all part of a Jewish plot. That did not mean, however, that he did not still subscribe to a lot of of their views. He just took them and made them more nationalistic and perverse.

Where were all the unions Hitler set up in his socialist Germany?

Where are/were the unions in China, Cuba, the former USSR, and Venezuela? 

He was a dictatorial fascist.

"Hitler was not a socialist in the strict sense of the word; this can be shown by his definition of 'socialist', which differs from the norm:

Whoever is prepared to make the national cause his own to such an extent that he knows no higher ideal than the welfare of his nation; whoever has understood our great national anthem, Deutschland, Deutschland, über Alles, to mean that nothing in the wide world surpasses in his eyes this Germany, people and land, land and people — that man is a Socialist. (Bullock 76)

Hitler's meaning of socialism, therefore did not refer to a specific economic system, but to "an instinct for national self-preservation" (Fischer 125) or nationalism. Concerning the Socialist aspects of the 25-Point program, Hitler made promises "because in 1920, the German working class and the lower middle classes were saturated in a radical anti-capitalism; such phrases were essential for any politician who wanted to attract their support" (Bullock 75).

Hitler had an overall disregard for the masses and refused to accept trade unions or the working classes. Once Hitler was in power, he broke all promises he had made to the workers. Hitler and the Nazi Party did away with collective bargaining and the right to strike. He replaced trade unions with an organization called the 'Labor Front', but this organization was fundamentally a tool of the Nazi Party and did not operate in the workers' favor. According to the law that created the Labor Front, "Its task is to see that every individual should be able to perform the maximum of work" (Kangas 13)."
http://mattbrundage.com/publications/hitler-democracy.php

Again, he's a lot closer to Modern Conservativism than Socialism.

All good and very valid points but to summarize I think what we're looking at here is a more radical type of socialist - just an extreme offshoot of the socialist animal. In the end the state did run everything and the Nazi party had absolute power.

When you say "modern conservatism" are you referring to the neocons that have hijacked what used to be the traditionally conservative Republican party?

Always nice having conversations with you, Decker.

[Hugo Chavez]

w8tlftr, I still don't understand your point   are you saying because hitler was a national socialist, lefties in America would join an armed civilian force?  You're not serious with that thinking are you?

[Fury]

Obama could come out and say, "I'll kill the men, rape the women and eat the children.", and 99% of the Obamabots will interpret it as, "I'll lower taxes, improve education and secure the borders."

It's the same thing with Bidens speech. There was a ton of questionable stuff in there and blind supporters excused it as though he suggested they were going to have a bake sale or something.

Hahaha, this is the best post I've read on here in months. Hilarious.

[Decker]

LOL

Yes but in the end the state still ran everything the corporations did not nor did the people. It was Mussolini that said fascism should really be called corporatism but the bitch about it is that state is calling all of the shots. Just like Hugo Chavez is calling the shots in Venezuela.

Hitler, spoken to Otto Strasser, Berlin, May 21, 1930: I am a Socialist, and a very different kind of Socialist from your rich friend, Count Reventlow. . . . What you understand by Socialism is nothing more than Marxism.

I think you hit nail on the head, somewhat. From what I've read a lot of his issues with socialism (during his rise to power) and communism was that he sincerely believed it was all part of a Jewish plot. That did not mean, however, that he did not still subscribe to a lot of of their views. He just took them and made them more nationalistic and perverse.

Where are/were the unions in China, Cuba, the former USSR, and Venezuela? 

All good and very valid points but to summarize I think what we're looking at here is a more radical type of socialist - just an extreme offshoot of the socialist animal. In the end the state did run everything and the Nazi party had absolute power.

When you say "modern conservatism" are you referring to the neocons that have hijacked what used to be the traditionally conservative Republican party?

Always nice having conversations with you, Decker.

In Germany, Hitler made a concerted effort to court the unions and he turned around and dumped on them putting the capitalists' interests above all else.

I think if we categorize the german/italian styles of government as socialist, then there is no such thing as dictatorial fascism.

When I refer to modern conservatism, I refer to the idea that corporate interests usurp those of the people.  I don't equate corporate well-being with the well-being of the people b/c by design, corporations are top down entities for the most part and they are inline with top down control or dictatorships.  I still believe that the best definition of 'socialism' incorporates the idea that workers, not capitalists, own the means of production.

As always W8, you're insightful and educational.

[headhuntersix]

If any of u closet getbig geniues really wanted to make ur mark and get rich or earn a phD...u should write a book on how in the tank the media has been for Obama. Its absurd how little we know about this guy and how much we know about Joe the Plumber or Todd Palin.....This guy is a media creation based on two things, he's black and he gave a speech in 2004.  This guy wants to crush a major industry in this country,  he will stifle small business and destroy what little manufacturing we have left. People out there actually think he's going to pay for their morgage, gas and medical. Oh and don't die with money Barry wants that to...he'd also like ur 401K while ur at it. 

Are u guys blind to some of this crap he wants to do.  With his tax plans..he will crush the average small business. People will lay off a worker here or there to make up the costs of the Obama tax bs. He also came right out and said he knows that his energy plan, along with crushing coal, will cause the average electrical bill to raise. He says that in the long run we'll be better off because people will invent a more efficient appliances, better light bulbs....and then he mumbled some more crap. Had this come out in Jan, he'd he back in the Senate already.

[Hugo Chavez]

If any of u closet getbig geniues really wanted to make ur mark and get rich or earn a phD...u should write a book on how in the tank the media has been for Obama. Its absurd how little we know about this guy and how much we know about Joe the Plumber or Todd Palin.....This guy is a media creation based on two things, he's black and he gave a speech in 2004.  This guy wants to crush a major industry in this country,  he will stifle small business and destroy what little manufacturing we have left. People out there actually think he's going to pay for their morgage, gas and medical. Oh and don't die with money Barry wants that to...he'd also like ur 401K while ur at it. 

Are u guys blind to some of this crap he wants to do.  With his tax plans..he will crush the average small business. People will lay off a worker here or there to make up the costs of the Obama tax bs. He also came right out and said he knows that his energy plan, along with crushing coal, will cause the average electrical bill to raise. He says that in the long run we'll be better off because people will invent a more efficient appliances, better light bulbs....and then he mumbled some more crap. Had this come out in Jan, he'd he back in the Senate already.

great on topic post   translation, oops obama didn't say that so I'll change the subject.

[headhuntersix]

Didn't say what...i both read and listened to his bullshit.....he said it Hugo..U know he said it despite the shitbags at his campaign trying to deny it.

 Let me sort of describe my overall policy.

What I've said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else's out there.

I was the first to call for a 100% auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.

So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted.


He said it.....black and white...he ment it....black and white. he also mumbled something bs about better lightbulbs.....

[Hugo Chavez]

Didn't say what...i both read and listened to his bullshit.....he said it Hugo..U know he said it despite the shitbags at his campaign trying to deny it.

 Let me sort of describe my overall policy.

What I've said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else's out there.

I was the first to call for a 100% auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.

So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted.


He said it.....black and white...he ment it....black and white. he also mumbled something bs about better lightbulbs.....

if you listened to what obama said, it was co2 emitions based which means any company that built old tech coal powered plants would go bankrupt.  If there were no financial incentive to adopt new tech, new companies would save a few bucks and just build old tech.  That's just the way it works and you know it.  Clean coal tech exists and can be furthered but it doesn't happen by company initiative and you know it.  Also, if you listened to Obama's speech sticked at the top of the forum, you can clearly hear he's not talking whatsoever about an armed civilian force so gee, thanks for admitting you're dead ass wrong.

[headhuntersix]

I don't care about Obama's ridiculous civilian force...we have people that already do all that. See Obama, as usual doesn't know a fucking thing that he's talking about. Instead of enlarging the organizations that already have years of experience doing the job, he will create a gove super agency and waste more of my money..

Obama is talking about bankrupting an industry...spin it any way u want. Biden wants China to have clean coal...he wants to ship that tech overseas....both are pretty consistant mesaages.....Obama is a turd.

[Hugo Chavez]

I don't care about Obama's ridiculous civilian force...we have people that already do all that. See Obama, as usual doesn't know a fucking thing that he's talking about. Instead of enlarging the organizations that already have years of experience doing the job, he will create a gove super agency and waste more of my money..

Obama is talking about bankrupting an industry...spin it any way u want. Biden wants China to have clean coal...he wants to ship that tech overseas....both are pretty consistant mesaages.....Obama is a turd.

you are such a clueless douche...  You don't think giving china clean coal tech is smart?  oh brother   There is no spin, it's fact... a power plant created with old tech wouldn't profit, a coal plant created with clean coal tech would based exactly on what Obama said, not spin... you're the one spinning it... And you're clueless on the other stuff too, of course we already have civilian participation, it's called the peace corps and other similar corps.  All Obama was talking about was funding those groups and it was spun here to mean he wanted an armed civilian force which is bullshit... once again, enjoy being dead ass wrong as usual.

[headhuntersix]

HUgo...who's a douche...waaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaa. Obama wants to creat a super group.....This wasn't even his idea but something bandied about by others...as usual.

Loving your country shouldn't just mean watching fireworks on the 4th of July," he said. "Loving your country must mean accepting your responsibility to do your part to change it. If you do, your life will be richer, our country will be stronger."...

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," he said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."

What the hell does that sound to u...sure as hell deosn't sound like the fucking peace corp to me....he could have said peace corp...he said civilian national security force.....60 years ago that would have been the SA.

But thats really not the point.....the point is that we have all that shit already...more waste and spending by a guy who has no clue.

He plans to double the Peace Corps' budget by 2011, and expand AmeriCorps, USA Freedom Corps, VISTA, YouthBuild Program, and the Senior Corps.  Plus, he proposes to form a Classroom Corps, Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, Veterans Corps, Homeland Security Corps, Global Energy Corps, and a Green Jobs Corps.  Here a corps - there a corps - everywhere a corps corps.


 The FY 2008 Department of Defense (DoD) budget is about $482 billion.  Obama has announced his intentions to cut "tens of billions of dollars in wasteful spending," including $9 billion per month spent in Iraq and expenditures for the missile defense system, while increasing the force size of the Army and Marine Corps.


Let's imagine "tens of billions" in cuts eventually adds up to a whopping $150 billion. That would be a near one-third cut in defense spending, taking the DoD budget down to $332 billion. Even in such an extreme case of DoD budget reduction, for his "civilian national security force" to be "just as well-funded" would mean funding his community service initiatives at an equivalent $332 billion.


Consequently, another $332 billion in addition to the Pentagon's reduced budget of $332 billion equals a net increase of $182 billion in the annual federal budget, assuming we sponge-up the already existing expenditures for the relatively meager, by comparison, existing service programs he plans to expand.  That's $182,000,000,000 in new federal monies, and that means higher taxes.

Thats the bottom line...OBAMA IS FULL OF SHIT!!!!!

[garebear]

Headhunter 6, this is the last time I'm gonna tell ya. Get of this God damn computer and start doing some PT.

[headhuntersix]

I did 2.5 miles today...and did some pull-up....tommorrow I resume lifting through saturday...good enough.

[w8tlftr]

w8tlftr, I still don't understand your point   are you saying because hitler was a national socialist, lefties in America would join an armed civilian force?  You're not serious with that thinking are you?

LOL... God no!

I'm just stating my opinion, based on what I've read on the subject, that Hitler and Mussolini were not solely products of extreme right-wing politics.

[w8tlftr]

In Germany, Hitler made a concerted effort to court the unions and he turned around and dumped on them putting the capitalists' interests above all else.

I think if we categorize the german/italian styles of government as socialist, then there is no such thing as dictatorial fascism.

When I refer to modern conservatism, I refer to the idea that corporate interests usurp those of the people.  I don't equate corporate well-being with the well-being of the people b/c by design, corporations are top down entities for the most part and they are inline with top down control or dictatorships.  I still believe that the best definition of 'socialism' incorporates the idea that workers, not capitalists, own the means of production.

As always W8, you're insightful and educational.

My pleasure. In spite of our disagreements I do learn a lot from you.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to get my old ass to Krav training. Advanced fight starts tonight!