Author Topic: The Republican idea factory has dried up  (Read 3421 times)

Straw Man

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2008, 02:48:00 PM »
I hear some (HH6, shoot, Ron, and others) say that Republicans need a moderate, or at least a social moderate to run.  Why do you say this?  What specific issues are social conservatives either wrong about or out-of-step with the majority of the country?  

All the issues that have been used to divide the country (you probably know what they are) for the past 8 years.




Dos Equis

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2008, 02:51:35 PM »
All the issues that have been used to divide the country (you probably know what they are) for the past 8 years.


No I don't.  That's why I asked the people saying Republicans need a social moderate to explain.  Disagreements always "divide" people.  A person or party isn't divisive because they hold a contrary viewpoint.   

Hedgehog

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2008, 03:25:24 PM »
Many business are owned by the state, especially their nationalized oil company.
This has lead to their high standard of living.

Most business are privately owned.
A few big corps like the oil corps, power plants, one bank and the phone company is partly or fully owned owned by the state.
But everyday business is fully privatized, and the reason it is not Socialism - there are no laws against starting new enterprises.
It's very much an open market.
I think all developing countries should nationalise their natural resources.
But that don't mean I support Socialism.
I just think there needs to be a clear break of the leeching of the natural resources of these countries - otherwise they'll stay primitive and underdeveloped forever.
As empty as paradise

Neurotoxin

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2008, 03:28:19 PM »
I'm sure they have a few ideas left.

The real problem is that all of their ideas have been proven to SUCK


 ;D


Decker

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2008, 08:33:13 AM »
Here's a nice addendum:

In short, they’re out of ideas. Partly due to what I believe was a cynical decision to politicize the 9 / 11 tragedy by scheduling an Iraq war vote shortly before the 2002 elections, the GOP ran the table. Conservative ideologues had complete control of the government for six years, during which they invaded Iraq on false pretenses, bungled the war catastrophically, failed to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, turned Afghanistan into a running sore, allowed a major American city to drown, resorted to kidnapping and torture, gutted Fourth Amendment privacy rights, ran up massive government debt and oversaw the near-implosion of the nation’s financial system.

It’s been straight downhill from “Mission accomplished” onward. So now many of the same pundits who marveled over Bush’s manly profile in his flight suit caution Obama to go slow, be mindful that America remains a “center-right” country and take care not to offend conservative sensibilities. Fortunately, the best thing I can say about Obama is that he’s far too tough and smart to listen.

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/Editorial/243290/

shootfighter1

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2008, 11:44:51 AM »
How niave to blame all those things on republicans.  decker, this kind of one sided exaggerated finger pointing is why many people have come to hate politics in this country.

Afghanistan is the fault of the taliban and middle eastern radical nuts.
Both parties and the faulty gov intell have some fault with the war, though I agree that Bush was at the helm and pushed for it.
"Allowed a major city to drown"...bullshit, that was a local, state and federal failure that was a wakeup call to all involved.  We learned and all did much better this fall with the hurricaines.  Where's the credit?  Nowhere, its fun to criticize  ::)
"Oversaw the near-implosion of the nation's financial system"- Its well known that certain democratic leaders ignored documented warnings about Fanny and Freddie.

I am not a fan of Bush/Cheney but why don't we blame snowstorms and tornados on them as well.

Straw Man

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2008, 11:55:12 AM »
How niave to blame all those things on republicans.  decker, this kind of one sided exaggerated finger pointing is why many people have come to hate politics in this country.

Afghanistan is the fault of the taliban and middle eastern radical nuts.
Both parties and the faulty gov intell have some fault with the war, though I agree that Bush was at the helm and pushed for it.
"Allowed a major city to drown"...bullshit, that was a local, state and federal failure that was a wakeup call to all involved.  We learned and all did much better this fall with the hurricaines.  Where's the credit?  Nowhere, its fun to criticize  ::)
"Oversaw the near-implosion of the nation's financial system"- Its well known that certain democratic leaders ignored documented warnings about Fanny and Freddie.

I am not a fan of Bush/Cheney but why don't we blame snowstorms and tornados on them as well.

we can certainly blame our leaders for how they react to problems

Fannie/Freddie was not the cause or even a large contributor to the current financial mess. 

shootfighter1

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2008, 12:38:29 PM »
Its a large part of the banking mess.  IMO, the changed culture of the country is also to blame.
The point I try to make is that government, in general, often fails us.  Too much red tape, partisan politics, and abuse of power...all with our tax dollars!  No way in hell would I vote for anyone who wants more of our $ for an inefficient system.

Dos Equis

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2008, 12:40:07 PM »
Here's a nice addendum:

In short, they’re out of ideas. Partly due to what I believe was a cynical decision to politicize the 9 / 11 tragedy by scheduling an Iraq war vote shortly before the 2002 elections, the GOP ran the table. Conservative ideologues had complete control of the government for six years, during which they invaded Iraq on false pretenses, bungled the war catastrophically, failed to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, turned Afghanistan into a running sore, allowed a major American city to drown, resorted to kidnapping and torture, gutted Fourth Amendment privacy rights, ran up massive government debt and oversaw the near-implosion of the nation’s financial system.

It’s been straight downhill from “Mission accomplished” onward. So now many of the same pundits who marveled over Bush’s manly profile in his flight suit caution Obama to go slow, be mindful that America remains a “center-right” country and take care not to offend conservative sensibilities. Fortunately, the best thing I can say about Obama is that he’s far too tough and smart to listen.

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/Editorial/243290/

Partisan drivel. 

shootfighter1

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2008, 12:41:48 PM »
Exactly, thats the partisan crap we need to stop.

Decker

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2008, 12:48:04 PM »
How niave to blame all those things on republicans.  decker, this kind of one sided exaggerated finger pointing is why many people have come to hate politics in this country.

Afghanistan is the fault of the taliban and middle eastern radical nuts.
Both parties and the faulty gov intell have some fault with the war, though I agree that Bush was at the helm and pushed for it.
"Allowed a major city to drown"...bullshit, that was a local, state and federal failure that was a wakeup call to all involved.  We learned and all did much better this fall with the hurricaines.  Where's the credit?  Nowhere, its fun to criticize  ::)
"Oversaw the near-implosion of the nation's financial system"- Its well known that certain democratic leaders ignored documented warnings about Fanny and Freddie.

I am not a fan of Bush/Cheney but why don't we blame snowstorms and tornados on them as well.
no no no no. 

First drop the 'faulty intel' meme.  That's a diversion. 

The intel was just fine.  The CIA said Iraq was no threat and WMD inspectors on the ground were finding nothing.

So naturally Bush ordered an invasion of the country to protect us from the weapons they didn't have in case they didn't attack.

Can we put that 'faulty intel' to bed?

As for Katrina, yeah, Bush's response to the disaster from his millionth vacation was just great.  Why he lied about 'no one could've foresaw the levees breaking" is beyond me.  Even Bush acknowledged (rarity) that he bungled it.

I get so fucking tired of people trying to be even-handed with obvious corruption and ineptitude.  "They all screw up"..."there's plenty of blame to go around"...."both sides of the aisle are equally responsible"

That is all 100% bullshit.

I am not a relativist.  Everyone's not equal. 

Christ, just look at the facts re Iraq.  Anyone telling me that blame should be apportioned equally for the illegal invasion/occupation just hasn't been paying attention and is trying to take some high road that does not exist.

a_joker10

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2008, 01:16:27 PM »
Most business are privately owned.
A few big corps like the oil corps, power plants, one bank and the phone company is partly or fully owned owned by the state.
But everyday business is fully privatized, and the reason it is not Socialism - there are no laws against starting new enterprises.
It's very much an open market.
I think all developing countries should nationalise their natural resources.
But that don't mean I support Socialism.
I just think there needs to be a clear break of the leeching of the natural resources of these countries - otherwise they'll stay primitive and underdeveloped forever.
Social Democracy is the cornerstone of Norway and to large extend every Scandinavian country.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=kGdbX4EEUgkC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=%22social+democracy%22+norway&source=web&ots=nGsWBStlUn&sig=kHXWWWjNuVDKDQJ5NohwYKLrqTY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result

That is what I meant by socialism.

Countries in colder climates share more with their people because it is a necessity to keep people from dying.
Warm climates not so much.
It is a way over simplification, but social democracies and socialism rule the North.
Canada, Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Russia all either social democracies or are truly socialist.

Z

shootfighter1

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2008, 02:19:59 PM »
The Iraq blunder is the biggest reason I don't defend the Bush/Cheney administration, I agree on that one...but I still say its not their fault alone.
I don't know what to say about the intelligence, we didn't see it, however, reputable people said that the Intell pointed to WMDs in Iraqi posession.  Also, the problem with Iraq had been mounting since George Bush Sr and Clinton acknowledged the serious growing threat...so looking at it over a 10 yr period from that perspective may have been different.  Still wrong decision though and in hindsight, a horrible decision.

a_joker10

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2008, 02:38:13 PM »
The Iraq blunder is the biggest reason I don't defend the Bush/Cheney administration, I agree on that one...but I still say its not their fault alone.
I don't know what to say about the intelligence, we didn't see it, however, reputable people said that the Intell pointed to WMDs in Iraqi posession.  Also, the problem with Iraq had been mounting since George Bush Sr and Clinton acknowledged the serious growing threat...so looking at it over a 10 yr period from that perspective may have been different.  Still wrong decision though and in hindsight, a horrible decision.

Iraq was not a bad decision.

How it was handled after "mission accomplished" and until the surge was.
Rumsfeld will always be responsible for not having a proper plan to deal with Iraq after the liberation.
Z

Decker

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2008, 02:40:31 PM »
The Iraq blunder is the biggest reason I don't defend the Bush/Cheney administration, I agree on that one...but I still say its not their fault alone.
I don't know what to say about the intelligence, we didn't see it, however, reputable people said that the Intell pointed to WMDs in Iraqi posession.  Also, the problem with Iraq had been mounting since George Bush Sr and Clinton acknowledged the serious growing threat...so looking at it over a 10 yr period from that perspective may have been different.  Still wrong decision though and in hindsight, a horrible decision.
The intel from 10 years ago was faulty b/c it was from 10 years ago.  When the CIA and WMD inspectors took up the cause of determining whether Iraq still had WMDs or was a threat to the US, that stuff was the latest most relibable intelligence.

Yeah, Iraq was a problem.  

Was it such a problem that we had to devastate the country and kill all those people?  

Not by a long shot.

Decker

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2008, 02:43:19 PM »
Iraq was not a bad decision.

How it was handled after "mission accomplished" and until the surge was.
Rumsfeld will always be responsible for not having a proper plan to deal with Iraq after the liberation.
Would you take a bazooka to a thumbwrestling fight?

The needless death and destruction of the invasion is a criminal price to pay for something that could have been solved by political resolution.

Killing all those people to--what the fuck--remove Hussein, WMDs or whatever the flavor of the day reason was is an abomination and crime against humanity.

Why is that so hard to see?

Or did the Iraqi people get what they deserved?

a_joker10

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2008, 02:58:23 PM »
Would you take a bazooka to a thumbwrestling fight?

The needless death and destruction of the invasion is a criminal price to pay for something that could have been solved by political resolution.

Killing all those people to--what the fuck--remove Hussein, WMDs or whatever the flavor of the day reason was is an abomination and crime against humanity.

Why is that so hard to see?

Or did the Iraqi people get what they deserved?

I have already posted why I think Iraq is better off without Saddam.
That they have more power, more drink water, more sanitary sewer services.
That the ethnic cleansing is now largely subsided for the first time in over 20 years.

If Bush is judged solely by Iraq, I would be one of the very few that said he did he right thing.
Many Americans suffered for this, but in the end the US military and its allies performed valiantly, through some of the most trying domestic times for the military.
Z

Straw Man

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2008, 03:13:36 PM »
The intel from 10 years ago was faulty b/c it was from 10 years ago.  When the CIA and WMD inspectors took up the cause of determining whether Iraq still had WMDs or was a threat to the US, that stuff was the latest most relibable intelligence.

Yeah, Iraq was a problem.  

Was it such a problem that we had to devastate the country and kill all those people?  

Not by a long shot.

Let's not forget the tab which is estimated to be ~ 3 TRILLION $$$ to the US Tax Payer


Decker

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2008, 12:33:30 PM »
I have already posted why I think Iraq is better off without Saddam.
That they have more power, more drink water, more sanitary sewer services.
That depends on who you ask.  Are you equally thrilled with the raw sewage corrupting the potable water source.  The US inspectors just deemed this success a "100 million dollar failure"  http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/27/mideast/rebuild.php
Quote
That the ethnic cleansing is now largely subsided for the first time in over 20 years.
It subsided b/c the majority is running out of victims.  How in the hell is that a success?

Quote
If Bush is judged solely by Iraq, I would be one of the very few that said he did he right thing.
Many Americans suffered for this, but in the end the US military and its allies performed valiantly, through some of the most trying domestic times for the military.
The 100,000+ dead is a success to you?  The 4 million Iraqis fleeing the country is a success to you?  The destruction....

For what?  That bullshit symbolic purple finger?

For the hundreds of billions of dollars we paid to destroy and rebuild the country, we could have just made a straight cash pay off bribing every single Iraqi citizen to vote.

a_joker10

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2008, 12:40:02 PM »
That depends on who you ask.  Are you equally thrilled with the raw sewage corrupting the potable water source.  The US inspectors just deemed this success a "100 million dollar failure"  http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/27/mideast/rebuild.phpIt subsided b/c the majority is running out of victims.  How in the hell is that a success?

She said that the backbone of the sewer system would be capable of serving the entire city of Falluja but that the Iraqi government would be responsible for connecting much of that system to individual homes.

"This has been unbelievably challenging and indescribably dangerous, both from a security and a construction safety standpoint. People have died in an effort to bring the city its first wastewater treatment system, a fundamental service, with health and environmental benefits most Americans take for granted."

As I said better then before.
Falluja had no sanitary sewer service, now they do.
Sure it could go better, but many Iraqi's are now getting things they never had before.

While you close your eyes and label everything as a failure. Now you are projecting failure on things that by any definition would be a success.
Z

Decker

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2008, 12:43:26 PM »
She said that the backbone of the sewer system would be capable of serving the entire city of Falluja but that the Iraqi government would be responsible for connecting much of that system to individual homes.

"This has been unbelievably challenging and indescribably dangerous, both from a security and a construction safety standpoint. People have died in an effort to bring the city its first wastewater treatment system, a fundamental service, with health and environmental benefits most Americans take for granted."

As I said better then before.
Falluja had no sanitary sewer service, now they do.
Sure it could go better, but many Iraqi's are now getting things they never had before.

While you close your eyes and label everything as a failure. Now you are projecting failure on things that by any definition would be a success.
Fallujah had families and homes and streets and stores and the US flattened it.  Killing and destroying.

And we give them a defective waste treatment plant in return.

Only an American would view that as an equitable trade.

"...the project, which has tripled in cost from original plans to $100 million and has fallen about three years behind schedule, has become an example of the failed and often oversold program to rebuild Iraqi infrastructure with U.S. dollars and skill."

"The project was so poorly conceived that there is no reliable electricity to run pumps and purification tanks, and no money left to connect homes to the main sewer lines, which now run uselessly beneath Falluja's streets, according to a report by U.S. investigators released Monday."


a_joker10

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2008, 12:58:43 PM »
Fallujah had families and homes and streets and stores and the US flattened it.  Killing and destroying.

And we give them a defective waste treatment plant in return.

Only an American would view that as an equitable trade.

"...the project, which has tripled in cost from original plans to $100 million and has fallen about three years behind schedule, has become an example of the failed and often oversold program to rebuild Iraqi infrastructure with U.S. dollars and skill."

"The project was so poorly conceived that there is no reliable electricity to run pumps and purification tanks, and no money left to connect homes to the main sewer lines, which now run uselessly beneath Falluja's streets, according to a report by U.S. investigators released Monday."



Falluja had no sanitary sewer service before the invasion.
Most likely the electrical service is behind, but was supposed to be connected to the plant by the time the sewage system was done.

It is called phasing projects.
They wouldn't hold back one part of the schedule because it is an awarded contract.

It was also three years behind schedule because of a small matter of an uprising.

Oh well continue your hate.
Z

Decker

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2008, 01:46:59 PM »
Falluja had no sanitary sewer service before the invasion.
Most likely the electrical service is behind, but was supposed to be connected to the plant by the time the sewage system was done.

It is called phasing projects.
They wouldn't hold back one part of the schedule because it is an awarded contract.

It was also three years behind schedule because of a small matter of an uprising.

Oh well continue your hate.
You're damn right I hate Bush.  Have you seen the pictures of the solders's remains returned to the US?

Of course you haven't.  Bush locked them down so that his war would be bloodless to us thereby manageable.

OH the great sacrifice Bush asked of the american people to support the war effort:  shop more.

The solidarity at the State of the Union--where members of the audience dipped there fingers in ink to show brotherhood with the voters in Iraq--SYMBOLISM OVER SUBSTANCE.  Typical rightwingers.

The lies, the death, the torture, the destruction, the incompetence, the lies heaped on lies...not a damn good thing has come out of this.

This entire Iraq disaster has the sickengly sweet stench of corrupted death. 

a_joker10

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2008, 01:51:34 PM »
You're damn right I hate Bush.  Have you seen the pictures of the solders's remains returned to the US?

Of course you haven't.  Bush locked them down so that his war would be bloodless to us thereby manageable.

OH the great sacrifice Bush asked of the american people to support the war effort:  shop more.

The solidarity at the State of the Union--where members of the audience dipped there fingers in ink to show brotherhood with the voters in Iraq--SYMBOLISM OVER SUBSTANCE.  Typical rightwingers.

The lies, the death, the torture, the destruction, the incompetence, the lies heaped on lies...not a damn good thing has come out of this.

This entire Iraq disaster has the sickengly sweet stench of corrupted death. 

Too bad things are better.
Hopefully  Obama doesn't make it worse.
Z

Decker

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Re: The Republican idea factory has dried up
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2008, 02:07:51 PM »
Too bad things are better.
Hopefully  Obama doesn't make it worse.
The damage is done.

And all it took to make it better was 600+ billion dollars, 4100 american lives, 100,000+ dead kids, women and men, and some 40,000 wounded us soldiers and ruined country....not to mention the strain on each soldier's domestic life--relatives and all.

Shit, even the barest risk/reward analysis shows the Iraq debacle was flop.