I hope all the opponents of abortion are willing to personally adopt all of

[Cap]

It's not a child until it's born. Until then it is a zygote... a blob of cells, ...a parasite that survives because it has a host to feed off.

it would be aggravated assault

Usually homicide if the child died.  Explain to the father and mother of that dead child that it was just assault. 

It's true though.  These Hollywood women would rather adopt some foreign baby than a baby from here or God forbid actually have a baby and possibly ruin their body.  Big whoop. 


Windsor, why don't you tell the celebs to adopt kids from here?  They have the money to do it. Christians/Catholics believe in the life of the child, unlike people who want to have sex with no consequences.  What happened to personal responsibility?  Abortion is one of the many reasons why men and women don't engage in smart or safe sexual practices.

[Dan-O]

A girl is brutally raped and she should be forced to have the child and raise it? No, I don't believe in that kind of "personal responsibility and accountability"; do you?

No, of course not...  but as has been pointed out already, that's a very extreme example that accounts for a very tiny percentage of all abortions that are performed.

[24KT]

If the male sex bore the responsibility of carrying a fetus to term and giving birth,
...abortions would be available on demand at every 7-11 and jiffy-lube across America.

[tu_holmes]

Prove it.  I've looked for statistics a couple times within the past week and here is what I found:

Poll: 60 Percent Oppose All, Most Abortions; 28% of "Pro-Choice" are Pro-Life

by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
October 14, 2008

Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) -- A new national poll of Americans finds a large majority take one of three pro-life positions opposing all or most abortions. The survey also finds more than one-quarter of people who say they are "pro-choice" on abortion really take a pro-life position against abortions.

The Marist College Institute of Public Opinion conducted the survey between September 24 and October 3.

Some 60 percent of Americans say abortions should never be allowed or only in the rarest of circumstances, such as rape and incest, that constitute less than two percent of all abortions nationwide.

The Marist survey showed 13 percent say abortion should never be permitted, another 15 percent say abortions should only be allowed to save the life of the mother, and 32 percent say abortions should be allowed in that rare case and when the mother is a victim of rape or incest.

Just 40 percent took one of three pro-abortion positions and only 8 percent agreed with Barack Obama's position that abortions should be allowed any time during pregnancy for any reason.

Another 8 percent believed abortions should be allowed any time during the first 6 months of pregnancy and 24 percent say they should be allowed only in the first trimester.

The results showed the terms pro-life and "pro-choice" are confusing to a large percentage of Americans. Even though the survey found 60 percent of respondents took a pro-life position against all or most abortions, 50 percent of Americans called themselves "pro-choice" while 44 percent said they were pro-life.

In fact, the Marist poll found 5 percent of people who self-identified as "pro-choice" said abortions should never be permitted, 3 percent said only to save the life of the mother and 20 percent said only in cases of the life of the mother, rape or incest.

In other words, 28 percent of Americans who call themselves "pro-choice" actually take a pro-life position opposing 98 percent or more abortions.

The poll also revealed that only 15% of those describing themselves as "pro-choice" favored unrestricted abortion throughout a pregnancy as another 71 percent said they favored more abortion limits.

The pro-life group Knights of Columbus, a Catholic fraternal order, asked Marist to commission the poll and Carl Anderson, the head of the group, commented on the results.

He said they are "indicative of the fact that term 'pro-choice' - when applied broadly - needlessly polarizes the discussion of abortion and masks the fact that there is broad consensus among Americans that abortion should be significantly restricted."

 http://www.lifenews.com/nat4446.html

Seriously BB... You're going to quote "Lifenews.com" to show that I'm wrong?

Really?

HAHAHA!!!

[Arnold jr]

If the male sex bore the responsibility of carrying a fetus to term and giving birth,
...abortions would be available on demand at every 7-11 and jiffy-lube across America.

I'd be willing to bet that you're right...there would be some out there that would change their opinion rather quickly. Even so, "what if's" don't make something right.

...might as well add this...there would probably be some pro choice women out there who would change their view if your "What if" were true.

[Dos Equis]

Seriously BB... You're going to quote "Lifenews.com" to show that I'm wrong?

Really?

HAHAHA!!!

"The Marist College Institute of Public Opinion conducted the survey between September 24 and October 3."  Now what? 

And what about this? 

Two polls were released in May 2007 asking Americans "With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?" A CNN poll found 45% said pro-choice and 50% said pro-life.Within the following week, a Gallup poll found 49% responding pro-choice and 45% pro-life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-choice#United_States

There is also the poll I quoted for you last week, which showed a majority of Americans favor at least some restrictions on abortion.  That makes three polls that do not support your claim that "Most people are still cool with Abortion... It's overwhelming pro-choice these days... Well, except for you religious old types."

Like I said, prove it. 

[Deicide]

This thread is hardcore.

[tu_holmes]

"The Marist College Institute of Public Opinion conducted the survey between September 24 and October 3."  Now what? 

And what about this? 

Two polls were released in May 2007 asking Americans "With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?" A CNN poll found 45% said pro-choice and 50% said pro-life.Within the following week, a Gallup poll found 49% responding pro-choice and 45% pro-life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-choice#United_States

There is also the poll I quoted for you last week, which showed a majority of Americans favor at least some restrictions on abortion.  That makes three polls that do not support your claim that "Most people are still cool with Abortion... It's overwhelming pro-choice these days... Well, except for you religious old types."

Like I said, prove it. 

The 2008 votes are more proof than any of these articles Beach.

Anti-abortion efforts fizzle

California voters rejected a ballot measure that would have required doctors to notify parents before performing an abortion on a minor. The defeat of Proposition 4 marks the third time in four years that supporters of the measure have failed to limit abortions for teenage girls.

The initiative was similar to laws in 35 states and would also have required a two-day waiting period before a minor could get an abortion. Opponents said it was a thinly disguised attempt to chip away at abortion rights.

Elsewhere, voters in Colorado and South Dakota rejected measures that could have led to sweeping bans of abortion, and Washington became only the second state — after Oregon — to offer terminally ill people the option of physician-assisted suicide.

The Colorado measure, which was defeated soundly, would have defined life as beginning at conception. Its opponents said the proposal could lead to the outlawing of some types of birth control as well as abortion.

Minus California, those are Totally RED states... This is the religious groups havens... and yet they were defeated in each one.

How are you going to sit here and talk to me about Polls, when voters are proving my point?

Remember that polls are once again not talking to most young people... Polls only call land lines and young people in the US do not use land lines.

[Buffgeek]

There's a difference between a zygote, and a fetus, and an infant.

You are kidding yourself lady.

[Buffgeek]

If the male sex bore the responsibility of carrying a fetus to term and giving birth,
...abortions would be available on demand at every 7-11 and jiffy-lube across America.

This is a completely rediculous claim that could never be substantiated.

I tell you one thing. Guys would be more dilligent about wearing condoms. 

[Deicide]

This is a completely rediculous claim that could never be substantiated.

I tell you one thing. Guys would be more dilligent about wearing condoms. 

Indeed, 'rediculous'...

Though I believe it to be too late I still think English desperately needs an orthographic reform.

[Dan-O]

The 2008 votes are more proof than any of these articles Beach.
Minus California, those are Totally RED states... This is the religious groups havens... and yet they were defeated in each one.

How are you going to sit here and talk to me about Polls, when voters are proving my point?

Remember that polls are once again not talking to most young people... Polls only call land lines and young people in the US do not use land lines.

CO and WA are hardly "totally red states."  SD, maybe.  CO is divided pretty evenly between R's, D's, and I's but WA is definitely not "red" in any which way.

[bears]

A girl is brutally raped and she should be forced to have the child and raise it? No, I don't believe in that kind of "personal responsibility and accountability"; do you?

this is THE DUMBEST argument that is made for abortion.  will you cut the shit already?  everyone knows that women are not getting abortions because they are raped.  how can people like you cling to an argument like that when it is so far removed from the reality of the situation.  i personally support the decision in roe v wade.  i believe that the people who passed the law had their heart in the right place.  in the 70's the right argued that if they passed roe v wade, that it would be too slippery a slope and there would be tons and tons of abortions every year simply as a matter of convenience.  the left called those people crazy bible thumping idiots.  now here we are 30 some odd years later.  we have close to 2 million a year in the U.S.  Less than 7% of those abortions are for reasons of rape/incest, danger to the mother, or danger to both mother and fetus.  Yes i believe if a woman is raped she should be allowed to have an abortion.  but the fact is that the majority of abortions are for reasons of convenience.  so cut the shit already.  

[tu_holmes]

CO and WA are hardly "totally red states."  SD, maybe.  CO is divided pretty evenly between R's, D's, and I's but WA is definitely not "red" in any which way.

True, WA is not... but I feel that CO is aside from Denver and SD absolutely...

The reality is that the younger generation just doesn't care about it... That's the truth, and if this election showed us anything it was that the younger people when they come out to vote, are not voting to ban abortion, it's just the older voters.

[Hereford]

CO is a red state outside of Denver and Boulder. The last election was an anonomly.

But, like a lot of other states including OR, NM, and even CA., one to two cities run the entire show...

[Buffgeek]

Indeed, 'rediculous'...

Though I believe it to be too late I still think English desperately needs an orthographic reform.

Sorry I will be sure to use spell check just for you man.  I am sorry it bothered you so much that you go offtopic to show everyone how poorly I can spell.

Hey guys. Please disregard everything I have said in the thread. I have misspelled "ridiculous" so clearly I fail at conveying any rational thought.   


As an aside. Pointing out my spelling/grammar errors would be a full time job for anyone. I type very fast and move on as I usually have a lot of work to do. This probably is from online gaming back in the day, but I am sure most people understand the gist of what I am saying.

[Dos Equis]

The 2008 votes are more proof than any of these articles Beach.
Minus California, those are Totally RED states... This is the religious groups havens... and yet they were defeated in each one.

How are you going to sit here and talk to me about Polls, when voters are proving my point?

Remember that polls are once again not talking to most young people... Polls only call land lines and young people in the US do not use land lines.

I didn't give you articles.  I gave you poll numbers that directly conflict with your contention that abortion is just fine with the overwhelming majority of the public.  That may be your opinion, but it isn't factual. 

So a few measures regarding abortion restrictions didn't pass in a few states.  Does this prove your claim that the overwhelming majority of the public favors abortion on demand under any circumstances?  Absolutely not.  Does the election outcome support your opinion?  Again, absolutely not.  This election was about the economy, Bush, and the war.  If you have exit polls or any other solid indication that the overwhelming majority of Americans support your viewpoint, then I'd like to see it. 

[CQ]

those unwanted children.

Religious folk: what do you say? Are you willing to adopt all those children who have been saved from 'murder'? You know it is your duty.

I agree and say this so many times.

I have never in my life met an anti-abortion fanatic who is an adoptive parents, never met one volunteering etc.

I've always found that interesting. Preaching is easy, actually doing something to help is something many aren't willing to do.

Rhetorical arguement anyway, can't be stopped. It's kind of like trying to stop stealing, whatever we do people will do it. Instead of preaching to a fruitless endevour, why not actually do something to help kids if one is so concerned

[Buffgeek]

I agree and say this so many times.

I have never in my life met an anti-abortion fanatic who is an adoptive parents, never met one volunteering etc.

I've always found that interesting. Preaching is easy, actually doing something to help is something many aren't willing to do.

Rhetorical arguement anyway, can't be stopped. It's kind of like trying to stop stealing, whatever we do people will do it. Instead of preaching to a fruitless endevour, why not actually do something to help kids if one is so concerned

I personally know a lot of people that adopt chilldren and everyone of them had to adopt internationally because ther eis a huge waiting list for infants in the US....

I have 3 people in my family who have adopted at least two children and I know several others who have as well.

So I just need to forget about the killing of innocent children and join big brother, big sisters? SWEET!

This arguement makes no sense. If I have high regard for human life it means just that. Whether or not I adopt has no relevance. If I aborted a child because I was inconvienenced then yes I would be a hypocrite.

[w8tlftr]

Because as a Christian YOU have to step up to the plate and take responsibility for your faith.  If you are truly against abortion then YOU must be the one to support these little bastards that someone didn't want.  It may sound harsh but Abortion has made many lives better.  

It's not a matter of taking responsibility for ones faith. This is a matter of personal responsibility for ones actions.

It's not even truly a religious issue. It's about respect for human life.

[Dos Equis]

I personally know a lot of people that adopt chilldren and everyone of them had to adopt internationally because ther eis a huge waiting list for infants in the US....

I have 3 people in my family who have adopted at least two children and I know several others who have as well.

So I just need to forget about the killing of innocent children and join big brother, big sisters? SWEET!

This arguement makes no sense. If I have high regard for human life it means just that. Whether or not I adopt has no relevance. If I aborted a child because I was inconvienenced then yes I would be a hypocrite.

I have to agree. 

CQ are you really saying that a person cannot be Pro Life unless they adopt kids? 

[Deedee]

this is THE DUMBEST argument that is made for abortion.  will you cut the shit already?  everyone knows that women are not getting abortions because they are raped.  how can people like you cling to an argument like that when it is so far removed from the reality of the situation.  i personally support the decision in roe v wade.  i believe that the people who passed the law had their heart in the right place.  in the 70's the right argued that if they passed roe v wade, that it would be too slippery a slope and there would be tons and tons of abortions every year simply as a matter of convenience.  the left called those people crazy bible thumping idiots.  now here we are 30 some odd years later.  we have close to 2 million a year in the U.S.  Less than 7% of those abortions are for reasons of rape/incest, danger to the mother, or danger to both mother and fetus.  Yes i believe if a woman is raped she should be allowed to have an abortion.  but the fact is that the majority of abortions are for reasons of convenience.  so cut the shit already. 

Actually, it's the most important point in the whole discussion. 

If you truly believe that abortion is murder, then it is so across the board. There can be no dispensation for raped or incest victims (the numbers are under-reported, but I digress) or the health of the mother, since a life is a life. There can be no deciding by man which one should live, the cards have to fall where they may. I'm assuming there are a plethora of men out there willing to raise the child of their wife's rapist. 

Also, if abortion is truly murder, then punishment should follow, as in the death penalty or life imprisonment, since it would be considered first degree murder. That includes, the woman, the man, if he helped, all doctors, nurses, etc... Currently, rape victims are given a morning after pill immediately upon arrival at hospital, so that goes.

Acceptance of anything less is hypocrisy and the admittance that abortion really isn't murder at all.

Religious fundie leaders have finally admitted their real goal, which is to get rid of birth control. Bush policies have followed.  So all those people out there currently utilizing the pill, the patch... anything other than condoms, are guilty of murder too, right this very minute.

ps... one person's inconvenience, is another person's desperation.

[Deedee]

I personally know a lot of people that adopt chilldren and everyone of them had to adopt internationally because ther eis a huge waiting list for infants in the US....

I have 3 people in my family who have adopted at least two children and I know several others who have as well.

So I just need to forget about the killing of innocent children and join big brother, big sisters? SWEET!

This arguement makes no sense. If I have high regard for human life it means just that. Whether or not I adopt has no relevance. If I aborted a child because I was inconvienenced then yes I would be a hypocrite.

Much as I'm sure your heart is in the right place, and you are a good person who takes responsibility for your actions, you simply cannot force others to be like you, or legislate happiness. 

You're speaking from a personal point of view, which is the wrong way to look at it. Legislation happens with a view to the masses.

btw... forgive me if I'm wrong, but you're the guy who made a derogatory comment about women being inconvenienced, and worrying about their breasts sagging? It was a funny comment considering that most of the people who frequent this board are those who are/admire people who inject massive quantities of drugs into their bods to be huge, freak at every 1% of new bodyfat, and starve, train themselves into oblivion for a plastic trophy. I found it ironical. 

I would say that most women don't resort to medical intervention because of an inconvenience. Mostly it's a result of economic inability to sustain a child, desperation, etc.  The numbers show that.

[Buffgeek]

Much as I'm sure your heart is in the right place, and you are a good person who takes responsibility for your actions, you simply cannot force others to be like you, or legislate happiness. 

You're speaking from a personal point of view, which is the wrong way to look at it. Legislation happens with a view to the masses.

btw... forgive me if I'm wrong, but you're the guy who made a derogatory comment about women being inconvenienced, and worrying about their breasts sagging? It was a funny comment considering that most of the people who frequent this board are those who are/admire people who inject massive quantities of drugs into their bods to be huge, freak at every 1% of new bodyfat, and starve, train themselves into oblivion for a plastic trophy. I found it ironical. 

I would say that most women don't resort to medical intervention because of an inconvenience. Mostly it's a result of economic inability to sustain a child, desperation, etc.  The numbers show that.

This is actually one of the best replies on this subject I have seen. My thing isnt that I want to legislate happiness, its just that I feel that we are looking at the greatest holocaust since WWII in what is happening with the numbe of Abortions. I feel that Human life starts at conception and should be respected and protected. Are there situations where a child must be aborted? Yes, but the use of Abortion of a contraception method or even late term abortions are even more appalling.

I think this should be an issue handled at the state level.

I am absolutely the one who made the comment about the breast sagging etc... now keep in mind I was replying to someone who in my opinion has little value for human life... I have two children and I respect greatly what my wife went through to have them. I know what it did to her body and how hard she had to work to get back into shape and I greatly respect and appreciate that. That said.... Both of us strongly agree that its a small price to pay to bring a child into the world.

The irony of the statement in regards to bodybuilding wasnt lost on me but it I was just trying to downplay things seem trivial compared to a human life.


Do these numbers look similar to what you have seen?





UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

Who's having abortions (age)?
52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.

Who's having abortions (race)?
While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.

Who's having abortions (marital status)?
64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%.

Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

Abortion coverage:
48% of all abortion facilities provide services after the 12th week of pregnancy. 9 in 10 managed care plans routinely cover abortion or provide limited coverage. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds, virtually all of which are state funds. 16 states (CA, CT, HI, ED, IL, MA , MD, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) pay for abortions for some poor women.

Copyright 1996-2008, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (www.agi-usa.org)

[boonasty]

Indeed, 'rediculous'...

Though I believe it to be too late I still think English desperately needs an orthographic reform.

what "procentage" of people do you think would agree? 


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