I hope all the opponents of abortion are willing to personally adopt all of

[Dos Equis]

what "procentage" of people do you think would agree? 


http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=237299.0

lol.   

[Dan-O]

Deicide must be Dutch--that's the Dutch spelling of "percentage."  NOW it all makes sense, the Netherlands being one of the most liberal countries on earth.

Is dat echt waar?  Ben jij soms toevallig een Nederlander, Deicide?

[tonymctones]

If it were simply a matter of snapping one's fingers and having this occur... no doubt there would be more babies available for adoption, ...but before that can occur... a woman must go through the ordeal of a pregnancy and childbirth, which is extremely traumatic to the body. If she doesn't want to have a child, ...chances are pretty great she also does not want to experience her hair falling out in clumps, her teeth falling out, stretch marks all over her body, months of nausea, bloating, backache, infirmity, not to mention all the emotional, psychological, and physical trauma associated with pregnancy as well. When a fetus is capable of sustaining life on it's own, that's one thing... until then, it is technically speaking no more than a parasite, and women have the right to choose what occurs within their own bodies.

You are arguing for a child, ...but it is not a child, ...it is a parasite, that has the potential to grow into a child.

first off they chose to engage in sexual intercourse more than likely without the use of a contraceptive so you get what you deserve...but we could argue about that all day long

I want to know if you believe in a mans decision to not support their child? Whats the difference between a woman getting an abortion and a man not paying child support responsibility wise? Im sure you disagree with men not paying child support but why?

[Cap]

first off they chose to engage in sexual intercourse more than likely without the use of a contraceptive so you get what you deserve...but we could argue about that all day long

I want to know if you believe in a mans decision to not support their child? Whats the difference between a woman getting an abortion and a man not paying child support responsibility wise? Im sure you disagree with men not paying child support but why?

It's true, because the leech that he will have will last 18 years not 9 months before you can get rid of it.  If women can get abortions then men should be able to be dead beat dads.  I'm not advocating it but hey, I should decide what I want to do with my pay check after taxes.

[Arnold jr]

Much as I'm sure your heart is in the right place, and you are a good person who takes responsibility for your actions, you simply cannot force others to be like you, or legislate happiness. 

You're speaking from a personal point of view, which is the wrong way to look at it. Legislation happens with a view to the masses.

It's not legislating "happiness" it's legislating morality...there is a big difference.

Many pro choicer's will say you can't and shouldn't legislate morality. True to an extent...someones thoughts and opinions should never be legislated, but actions, some of them, by all means yes...think about it, here in the U.S. morality has been legislated and enforced for a long, long time on some key issues that no "moral" person would want otherwise:

*It's against the law to be a pedophile. Why? It's immoral.
*it's against the law to discriminate in the work place? Why? It's immoral
*It's against the law to sell pornography to minors. Why? It's immoral
...the list can go on and on.

Why are all those things considered illegal? Because the immorality harms another individual. Obviously in a the eyes of many who are pro choice this wouldn't apply to abortion since they don't see a fetus as an individual...he in lies the problem. Either way, it is still a moral issue at its core.

[CQ]

It's not legislating "happiness" it's legislating morality...there is a big difference.

Many pro choicer's will say you can't and shouldn't legislate morality. True to an extent...someones thoughts and opinions should never be legislated, but actions, some of them, by all means yes...think about it, here in the U.S. morality has been legislated and enforced for a long, long time on some key issues that no "moral" person would want otherwise:

*It's against the law to be a pedophile. Why? It's immoral.
*it's against the law to discriminate in the work place? Why? It's immoral
*It's against the law to sell pornography to minors. Why? It's immoral
...the list can go on and on.

Why are all those things considered illegal? Because the immorality harms another individual. Obviously in a the eyes of many who are pro choice this wouldn't apply to abortion since they don't see a fetus as an individual...he in lies the problem. Either way, it is still a moral issue at its core.

Good points, but I am always amused that is it considered immoral to say sell porn to a kid, but killing 100,000 Iraqi's is somehow fine. They both suck IMO, but killing 100,000 ppl ranks way higher on the sucky scale.

Besides, again, can't be stopped. Here we have no separation of church and state and abortion has always been illegal in all cases. Actually all porn is illegal too as an FYI. Doesn't stop either - females who wish an abortion will just go get one elsewhere. Why people cannot be more pragmatic I do not know, and work on compromises that may actually happen - as all 50 states, then all 270 nations/territories worldwide won't be banning abortion, so it will always be accessible. Fact.

[Deedee]

lol.   

You are bizarre.  All you want is for loser people to be lost in your religion. 

[CQ]

I personally know a lot of people that adopt chilldren and everyone of them had to adopt internationally because ther eis a huge waiting list for infants in the US....

I have 3 people in my family who have adopted at least two children and I know several others who have as well.

So I just need to forget about the killing of innocent children and join big brother, big sisters? SWEET!

This arguement makes no sense. If I have high regard for human life it means just that. Whether or not I adopt has no relevance. If I aborted a child because I was inconvienenced then yes I would be a hypocrite.

What does a waiting list for infants have to do with anything? That happens in the entire 1st world - infants aren't the ones that need help. The toddlers who have HIV, the older kids who have been abused etc - they need help.

If everyone you know went internationally, that was their choice - there are 500,000+ kids in the US whom need adopting. They obviously choose not to adopt them.

The point is always relevant, if people care about things - HELP! Talk is cheap, anyone can spout words, while refusing to help as many fd

Why people aren't consistent I don't know. Half these people screaming about some rights for a embyro support an invasion that kills people daily. Which one is it - regard for human life or not? If people claim to have regard, then they should be fighting to stop the mass murder being waged with their tax dollars.

[Buffgeek]

What does a waiting list for infants have to do with anything? That happens in the entire 1st world - infants aren't the ones that need help. The toddlers who have HIV, the older kids who have been abused etc - they need help.

If everyone you know went internationally, that was their choice - there are 500,000+ kids in the US whom need adopting. They obviously choose not to adopt them.

The point is always relevant, if people care about things - HELP! Talk is cheap, anyone can spout words, while refusing to help as many fd

Why people aren't consistent I don't know. Half these people screaming about some rights for a embyro support an invasion that kills people daily. Which one is it - regard for human life or not? If people claim to have regard, then they should be fighting to stop the mass murder being waged with their tax dollars.

you are seriously reaching here. Basically what you are saying is if someone believes in the rights to life of a human child they have no credibility unless they adopt a child. WTF are you talking about lol.  So if I go adopt a child am I eligble to care about babies being killed? Will that give me care cred?

No what I cannot understand is what Abortion is used as a contraceptive. Its discusting. Who the hell cannot afford a condom or birth control?

there have been 45 million abortions since 1973. 45 million lives that were to be but are now gone. That is insanity to me.

so would those 500,000 kids that need adopting prefer to be dead do you think? by your criteria they werent wanted so shouldnt even be here right?

Then we have the Iraq war comment. cant forget that little gem. I wonder what the Iraqi people would say to you if you asked them what this invasion meant to them. what their country is like now compared to before we came.

And are you saying that our troops are over in Iraq at this moment randomly killing Iraqis day an night? Do you guys only get MSNBC in the Carribean?

No the mass murder will come after this congress and president pull out prematurely before we have secured their country. (rememer nam?)

Pulling out never works.... Just ask that 45 million I just mentioned.

[Dos Equis]

You are bizarre.  All you want is for loser people to be lost in your religion. 

I was laughing at the fact that someone who makes fun of people for misspelling words started a thread with a misspelled word.  But a paranoid anti-religious extremist might miss the humor. 

[Arnold jr]

Good points, but I am always amused that is it considered immoral to say sell porn to a kid, but killing 100,000 Iraqi's is somehow fine. They both suck IMO, but killing 100,000 ppl ranks way higher on the sucky scale.

Besides, again, can't be stopped. Here we have no separation of church and state and abortion has always been illegal in all cases. Actually all porn is illegal too as an FYI. Doesn't stop either - females who wish an abortion will just go get one elsewhere. Why people cannot be more pragmatic I do not know, and work on compromises that may actually happen - as all 50 states, then all 270 nations/territories worldwide won't be banning abortion, so it will always be accessible. Fact.

I understand what you're saying, I can see your point. Here's how I see it when it comes to the two.

*Selling porn to children: obviously this exposes them to things that no child needs to be or should be exposed to...let kids be kids. Otherwise exposing them to this opens up a host of problems in their futures.

*Iraq: we went into a nation that was run by an evil dictatorship, one that had killed millions since being in power. Regardless of WMD's being there or not, regardless of oil, something should have been done long before hand. Something should be done in all countries that have similar situations.

If my own country ever came under an evil dictatorship, I would hope that some country that had the means to help would do so and drive that insanity out. Yes, there would be an enormous risk to citizens such as myself and my family, but it would be one I wholeheartedly welcomed if it meant an end to that dictatorship that held me and my family down or even threatened our lives. There would be some innocent lives lost, and that's the evil nature of war...but as with all justifiable wars, sometimes there is the element of necessary evil.

For the record, of the over 100,000 dead in Iraq, the majority have been part of the old regime, Sunni Muslims who supported the old regime and wished to see it reinstated by force; insurgents from Iran and Syria; and of course insurgents from al qaeda who come from every country in that region.

Yes, innocent civilians have lost their lives...and yes, that sucks. But should we have done nothing? I look at it no differently then if my neighbor is beating the crap out of his wife. If I know this is happening and I can hear or see it happening, I should step in. SUre, there is a risk, he could pull a gun, he could shoot me, he might even end up shooting her (her being an innocent) but that doesn't mean I did the wrong thing. Standing by and doing nothing, that is the wrong thing, that is the immoral thing.

[bears]

you are seriously reaching here. Basically what you are saying is if someone believes in the rights to life of a human child they have no credibility unless they adopt a child. WTF are you talking about lol.  So if I go adopt a child am I eligble to care about babies being killed? Will that give me care cred?

No what I cannot understand is what Abortion is used as a contraceptive. Its discusting. Who the hell cannot afford a condom or birth control?

there have been 45 million abortions since 1973. 45 million lives that were to be but are now gone. That is insanity to me.
so would those 500,000 kids that need adopting prefer to be dead do you think? by your criteria they werent wanted so shouldnt even be here right?

Then we have the Iraq war comment. cant forget that little gem. I wonder what the Iraqi people would say to you if you asked them what this invasion meant to them. what their country is like now compared to before we came.

And are you saying that our troops are over in Iraq at this moment randomly killing Iraqis day an night? Do you guys only get MSNBC in the Carribean?

No the mass murder will come after this congress and president pull out prematurely before we have secured their country. (rememer nam?)

Pulling out never works.... Just ask that 45 million I just mentioned.

good post.  i bolded the one part because back in 1973 the people on the right were fighting against roe v wade because this is what they thought would happen.  the left called them bible thumping maniacs for believing that kind of garbage.  its funny how no one remembers that anymore.  definitely gives me a different perspective when sanctity of life issues are discussed.  horrible things can be rationalized very easily in this country when it is convenient.

[tu_holmes]

good post.  i bolded the one part because back in 1973 the people on the right were fighting against roe v wade because this is what they thought would happen.  the left called them bible thumping maniacs for believing that kind of garbage.  its funny how no one remembers that anymore.  definitely gives me a different perspective when sanctity of life issues are discussed.  horrible things can be rationalized very easily in this country when it is convenient.

45 Million unwanted kids... Kids that because they were unwanted would be left to fend for themselves, resulting in 45 Million criminals on the streets.

Roe v. Wade is the greatest crime prevention law ever passed.

To argue it is ridiculous.

[tonymctones]

What does a waiting list for infants have to do with anything? That happens in the entire 1st world - infants aren't the ones that need help. The toddlers who have HIV, the older kids who have been abused etc - they need help.

If everyone you know went internationally, that was their choice - there are 500,000+ kids in the US whom need adopting. They obviously choose not to adopt them.

The point is always relevant, if people care about things - HELP! Talk is cheap, anyone can spout words, while refusing to help as many fd

Why people aren't consistent I don't know. Half these people screaming about some rights for a embyro support an invasion that kills people daily. Which one is it - regard for human life or not? If people claim to have regard, then they should be fighting to stop the mass murder being waged with their tax dollars.

darling alot of lefties are pro choice and anti death penalty...again ive said this everytime you bring it up just b/c you arent proactive for a cause doesnt mean you dont have or cant have an opinion. Your against homelessness but you dont let them stay at your house do you?

[Buffgeek]

45 Million unwanted kids... Kids that because they were unwanted would be left to fend for themselves, resulting in 45 Million criminals on the streets.

Roe v. Wade is the greatest crime prevention law ever passed.

To argue it is ridiculous.

No this post is rediculous. My mom was 15 years old when she had me. I could have easily been one of these 45 million. So say that any of these children would be criminals is rediculous. Did we have a mass influx of criminals pre-1973? I am suprised crime hasnt been eradicated by now using your logic. 

[tu_holmes]

No this post is rediculous. My mom was 15 years old when she had me. I could have easily been one of these 45 million. So say that any of these children would be criminals is rediculous. Did we have a mass influx of criminals pre-1973? I am suprised crime hasnt been eradicated by now using your logic. 

Actually, yes we did have a mass influx of criminals... Notice how Crime was on a rampant rise until the mid 90s?

You will probably ignore the statistics because you don't like them... but there are a few facts you should think about.

1. Most crimes occur by those between the ages of 15 and 30.
2. Crime was on a rampant spike until the early 90s... Even so much that Clinton mentioned it in a state of the Union address.
3. Roe v. Wade was 1973.
4. After 1994 crime started to tumble by huge percentages.

Now... you take those 4 facts and you put them together... and YES... a large portion of those 45 Million would probably be criminals.

You said your mother had you when she was 15... Great... Notice how she WANTED you... Those who were aborted were NOT wanted.

Those who are NOT wanted will by most statistical standpoints become criminals.

Your situation isn't even relevant to my points what so ever.

[tonymctones]

Actually, yes we did have a mass influx of criminals... Notice how Crime was on a rampant rise until the mid 90s?

You will probably ignore the statistics because you don't like them... but there are a few facts you should think about.

1. Most crimes occur by those between the ages of 15 and 30.
2. Crime was on a rampant spike until the early 90s... Even so much that Clinton mentioned it in a state of the Union address.
3. Roe v. Wade was 1973.
4. After 1994 crime started to tumble by huge percentages.

Now... you take those 4 facts and you put them together... and YES... a large portion of those 45 Million would probably be criminals.

You said your mother had you when she was 15... Great... Notice how she WANTED you... Those who were aborted were NOT wanted.

Those who are NOT wanted will by most statistical standpoints become criminals.

Your situation isn't even relevant to my points what so ever.

please give a link to prove that.

[tu_holmes]

please give a link to prove that.

The information is provided by many links, of which you can search.

I'm sure you can find lots of links to argue against it by pro-life supports.

You disagree with the understanding that unwanted children are left to their own devices, and to run the streets, they will inherently gravitate towards crime?

[tonymctones]

The information is provided by many links, of which you can search.

I'm sure you can find lots of links to argue against it by pro-life supports.

You disagree with the understanding that unwanted children are left to their own devices, and to run the streets, they will inherently gravitate towards crime?

just curious, your statment implies that humans are inherently evil then im guessing? b/c if they are left to their own devices there is just as good a chance they will be productive members of society.

[tu_holmes]

just curious, your statment implies that humans are inherently evil then im guessing? b/c if they are left to their own devices there is just as good a chance they will be productive members of society.

No belief in the The Lord of The Flies?

[Buffgeek]

Actually, yes we did have a mass influx of criminals... Notice how Crime was on a rampant rise until the mid 90s?

You will probably ignore the statistics because you don't like them... but there are a few facts you should think about.

1. Most crimes occur by those between the ages of 15 and 30.
2. Crime was on a rampant spike until the early 90s... Even so much that Clinton mentioned it in a state of the Union address.
3. Roe v. Wade was 1973.
4. After 1994 crime started to tumble by huge percentages.

Now... you take those 4 facts and you put them together... and YES... a large portion of those 45 Million would probably be criminals.

You said your mother had you when she was 15... Great... Notice how she WANTED you... Those who were aborted were NOT wanted.

Those who are NOT wanted will by most statistical standpoints become criminals.

Your situation isn't even relevant to my points what so ever.

dude wtf are you talking about seriously.  So a good portion of everyone who was born around 1973 was a criminal? I mean that is who we are talking about is the people who were born. What event caused this? Was it the fact that people in the 70s were fucked up drug users who were selfish and got divorced? other factors?

You are seriously reaching here man. So after 93 all those kids who were criminals turned 20 and starting bieng good, so then we would have 45 million productive members of society post 93 right?

My situation has everything to do with it because my mother was absurdely young and there was still an expectation back then that you take care of your kid rather than abort it.

I could have easily been aborted because of my mothers age and situation. I had a messed up ass childhood too, but you bet your ass im glad I wasnt aborted.

If you look at the below chart you will also see a coorelation in what you stated earlier. Abortions were pretty high and droppped off sigificanly during the 90s.

Seems those who were born during and shortly after the time of Roe V Wade have a different opinion about abortion than their parents did.

[tu_holmes]

dude wtf are you talking about seriously.  So a good portion of everyone who was born around 1973 was a criminal? I mean that is who we are talking about is the people who were born. What event caused this? Was it the fact that people in the 70s were fucked up drug users who were selfish and got divorced? other factors?

You are seriously reaching here man. So after 93 all those kids who were criminals turned 20 and starting bieng good, so then we would have 45 million productive members of society post 93 right?

My situation has everything to do with it because my mother was absurdely young and there was still an expectation back then that you take care of your kid rather than abort it.

I could have easily been aborted because of my mothers age and situation. I had a messed up ass childhood too, but you bet your ass im glad I wasnt aborted.

If you look at the below chart you will also see a coorelation in what you stated earlier. Abortions were pretty high and droppped off sigificanly during the 90s.

Seems those who were born during and shortly after the time of Roe V Wade have a different opinion about abortion than their parents did.

Dude, you seriously don't read very well... As I wrote, but you couldn't comprehend... Most of those babies were UNWANTED.

Unwanted children become criminals... No... everyone who was born wasn't a criminal... but the unwanted ones would have had a predisposition to lean towards crime.

No one is talking about YOU or your situation... I'm talking about those who were aborted... Aborted because they were unwanted.

Stop acting like it's about you personally... It's not.

[windsor88]

Dude, you seriously don't read very well... As I wrote, but you couldn't comprehend... Most of those babies were UNWANTED.

Unwanted children become criminals... No... everyone who was born wasn't a criminal... but the unwanted ones would have had a predisposition to lean towards crime.

No one is talking about YOU or your situation... I'm talking about those who were aborted... Aborted because they were unwanted.

Stop acting like it's about you personally... It's not.

You are right.  People don't see the big picture.  They ignore hard facts. 

I am pro choice but against late term abortion. 

[Dan-O]

You are right.  People don't see the big picture.  They ignore hard facts. 

I am pro choice but against late term abortion. 

That whole crime statistic argument is so lame--so let's kill the unwanted kids in case they turn out to be criminals??!?  Sounds just a wee bit Orwellian if you really stop and think about it.  Or maybe a wee bit Minority Report-ish.  Or both, really.

It's ironic that so many pro-choicers are the same people who are anti-death penalty.

What's the difference between a pre-emptive execution (abortion, according to the above argument) and a criminal being executed after he/she's actually committed a capital crime?  Which of the two seems more fair and just to you?

[Dos Equis]

That whole crime statistic argument is so lame--so let's kill the unwanted kids in case they turn out to be criminals??!?  Sounds just a wee bit Orwellian if you really stop and think about it.  Or maybe a wee bit Minority Report-ish.  Or both, really.

It's ironic that so many pro-choicers are the same people who are anti-death penalty.

What's the difference between a pre-emptive execution (abortion, according to the above argument) and a criminal being executed after he/she's actually committed a capital crime?  Which of the two seems more fair and just to you?

I agree.  It really makes no sense.  There is no provable link between abortion and crime.

Reminds me of Minority Report.