Author Topic: Does the Bible condone slavery?  (Read 32914 times)

The Luke

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #225 on: December 12, 2008, 12:52:25 PM »
That's the reason they get displaced from their land.

...so when the Hebrews smashed up these cities they would have stormed into Molech's temples and found the newborn babies that were being washed for sacrifice... and smashed their heads in with blunted swords?

I can understand Yahweh demanding the perpetrators of human sacrifice be put to death... but why put to death the victims of human sacrifice? Isn't that kinda defeating the purpose?



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Deedee

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #226 on: December 12, 2008, 03:23:16 PM »
Hagar left, when Sarah started mistreating her. And, only under advisement by the angel of the Lord (and the promise of Ishmael's being prosperous) did she return. So, I'd say that, if she weren't cool with marrying Abe and found that to be a form of mistreatment, she could have departed.

And remember that the beef between the two started, because Hagar apparently started flaunting her pregnancy in Sarah's face. If I'm not mistaken, few things scarred the soul of an Anicent Near East woman more than not being able to have children. Getting poked in the eye with that by your handmaid-turned-rival wife couldn't have set well with her (notwithstanding the fact that it was Sarah's idea in the first place).


Depart is a nice word, something you do after you give two weeks notice as a free person. Slaves couldn't leave. They were indentured. The edict refers to not chasing after slaves once they've escaped to another land, but didn't stop anyone from locking up their slaves or beating them savagely to dissuade them from doing so.   Much the same as slaves today. The can "leave" as well, if they manage to escape.

Perhaps having sex with an 84-year-old man was better than the mistreatment Hagar received at the hands of Sarah. What does mistreatment mean anyway? Daily beatings, withholding food, public humiliation... it doesn't say. Must have been bad to flee into a desert fraught with danger.

It doesn't really matter what the beef was, since the OT states that slaves were not to be murdered,  makes no allowances for petty jealousy and female competitiveness, and casting a woman and her child into the desert was akin to murder. Only goes to illustrate that those with power and wealth could pretty much do as they wanted, just like today.  Yahweh didnt seem to mind the ill treatment of Hagar either.  Guess because he was okay with slavery.

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Point taken. But, the text states that the houseguest handed over the Levite's concubine (he actually offered both her and his own daughter).

Either the Levite wasn't there when it happen. Or, he did hand her over to those Benjamites, failing to add that part to his report to the Israelite elders.

That doesn't dismiss the fact that the rapists were to be punished by death for their deeds.

It's just as likely that the tribes entertained their bloodlust once the Levite complained that the Benjamites tried to murder him.  And of course, they were displeased with the behavior of this tribe to begin with. 

People were executed for having non-approved sex in general, but apparently not in the case of slave girls. Again, unless, that passage I quoted is incorrect.

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No one said that these offenses didn't occur. But, when they did, there were stiff consequences for that happening. Are we more "evolved" than those folks were? By and large, we don't execute rapists today. In fact, the U.S. Supreme Court just overturned a LA state law that gave the death penalty to child rapists, claming it was "cruel and unusual punishment" to execute these dudes, simply because the girl survived the abuse.

You're right about the indentured servant thing. But, what you left out what that, when the abuses became too frequent and out of control, the Irish settlers had the option of leaving. So, those in the slave trade ended up getting slaves that were very conspicuous (i.e. black people), deemed them "chattel", and were designed to be slaves for life.

They were kidnapped from their homeland (contrary to Biblical law); they were severely beaten and killed (with no punishment given to those responsible); the women were indeed RAPED (repeatedly and often, with no penalty at all to their assailants). Any children produced from this received NO inheritance, not even freedom.

If you did any of those things to an OT servant (Hebrew or non-Hebrew), you got severely punished for such.

I would argue that the death penalty for rape wasn't doled out so much for the harm it did the victim, but rather because it defiled a man's valuable asset. A deflowered unbetrothed girl was worthless and damaged goods. I think the fact that rapists were given the option of marrying their victims and working off the bride-price proves that. So no, don't find that particularly heartwarming.

There may have been stiff consequences but we have those as well.  Doesn't deter everyone, and not everyone is caught. Wealthy powerful people in particular get away with crime, and are in the perfect position to exploit others. The story of Sarah and Hagar proves nothing was different back then. As do the atrocities suffered by the indentured in centuries past, and those of the slaves we import today. 

What difference does it make that indentured servitude gave way to chattel slavery? The point was it was a terrible life and the indentured were abused.  You claim this wasn't true of biblical slaves, but common sense and the history of indentured servitude leading up to today would say otherwise.

Of course slaves in biblical times were beaten. Men were forcibly circumcised.  Women were given to old men as surrogate birthing vessels. They were marked as possessions. They couldn't always leave with their families if these were owned as well. Was it as bad as chattel slavery? No, and for some there was an end in sight after 7 years. You could say they were a better class of slave masters. If you're offered a choice between being shot in the head or burned at the stake, most would choose the shooting, but all would prefer neither.


The Luke

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #227 on: December 12, 2008, 04:50:20 PM »
Dedee,


Where were you for the first few pages of this thread?

I've been fighting the good fight against these "Post a link!"; "Quote the scriptural verse!"; "Prove it didn't!" ignoramae all alone.


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MCWAY

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #228 on: December 13, 2008, 02:35:37 PM »
Dedee,


Where were you for the first few pages of this thread?

I've been fighting the good fight against these "Post a link!"; "Quote the scriptural verse!"; "Prove it didn't!" ignoramae all alone.


The Luke

Fighting would hardly be the word to describe your factually-challeneged posts. The reason you get asked to produce specific references is because, boy genius, YOU KEEP MAKING SPECIFIC CLAIMS.

If Loco or I make a claim to the contrary, we will support that with specific references, which anyone can view for himself and make their own assessment of the situation. For some reason, neither one of us like pulling claims out of our hind-quarters, only to dine on our own feet (in true Lukan fashion), when the actual facts don't match our claims in the least.

It's rather cute to think that running to Deedee gets you off the hook, regarding backing your statements (namely, your claims that a master who killed his servant got something other than the death penalty). But, it's what I've come to expect from certain skeptics......always running to "Mommy" (no offense, Deedee) when they can't make their statements stand on their own merits.


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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #229 on: December 13, 2008, 03:06:50 PM »
Depart is a nice word, something you do after you give two weeks notice as a free person. Slaves couldn't leave. They were indentured. The edict refers to not chasing after slaves once they've escaped to another land, but didn't stop anyone from locking up their slaves or beating them savagely to dissuade them from doing so.   Much the same as slaves today. The can "leave" as well, if they manage to escape.

Yet, no one went after Hagar. And she returned of her own will. The fact that Hagar was not Hebrew is simply an example of foreign servants, not being under the lock-and-key scenario that some have claim foreigners were.


Perhaps having sex with an 84-year-old man was better than the mistreatment Hagar received at the hands of Sarah. What does mistreatment mean anyway? Daily beatings, withholding food, public humiliation... it doesn't say. Must have been bad to flee into a desert fraught with danger.

The problem with your assessment, Deedee, is that we have NO indication of any mistreatment by Sarah, PRIOR to her concocting the idea to have Abe produce the promised child through Hagar. Once Hagar gets pregnant, then we see the static building. After all, Sarah is barren and Hagar is boasting about her pregnancy (and perhaps, more favorable treatment from Abe). Again, few things hurt ANE women more than NOT being able to have kids. I think Sarah's having her plan backfire in her face (combined with Hagar's antagonizing) became more than she could bear.



It doesn't really matter what the beef was, since the OT states that slaves were not to be murdered,  makes no allowances for petty jealousy and female competitiveness, and casting a woman and her child into the desert was akin to murder. Only goes to illustrate that those with power and wealth could pretty much do as they wanted, just like today.  Yahweh didnt seem to mind the ill treatment of Hagar either.  Guess because he was okay with slavery.

Murder is what could have potentially happened had Hagar stayed much longer, especially after Sarah finally had Isaac. Furthermore, nothing was going to happen to Hagar, once she left Abe and Sarah, as Mr. Meanie, Yahweh, promised BOTH Hagar and Abraham that Ishmael would father a great nation, as well. This something HE DID NOT have to do, as the original deal was that Abe's seed was to be greatly multiplied via a child FROM SARAH.


It's just as likely that the tribes entertained their bloodlust once the Levite complained that the Benjamites tried to murder him.  And of course, they were displeased with the behavior of this tribe to begin with. 

People were executed for having non-approved sex in general, but apparently not in the case of slave girls. Again, unless, that passage I quoted is incorrect.

The specific sex acts that warranted death involved adultery, bestiality, and homosexuality. With regards to the passage you quote, the slave girl consents but the money has not changed hands for her official bethrothment. That is why she is NOT executed. Once it becomes official, she is effectively MARRIED, making any consentual sex on her part......ADULTERY (which is punishable by death).


I would argue that the death penalty for rape wasn't doled out so much for the harm it did the victim, but rather because it defiled a man's valuable asset. A deflowered unbetrothed girl was worthless and damaged goods. I think the fact that rapists were given the option of marrying their victims and working off the bride-price proves that. So no, don't find that particularly heartwarming.

The rapists weren't given the option. The bride and her family (Dad, in particular) exercised that option. And this applied to single women. The only reason he's being kept alive is to ensure that the victim has PERMANENT material care. If she had that already, the rapist would have been put the sword, almost immediately.


There may have been stiff consequences but we have those as well.  Doesn't deter everyone, and not everyone is caught. Wealthy powerful people in particular get away with crime, and are in the perfect position to exploit others. The story of Sarah and Hagar proves nothing was different back then. As do the atrocities suffered by the indentured in centuries past, and those of the slaves we import today. 

The issue wasn't whether or not people try (successfully or not) to be above the law, but whether the law itself is a just and fair one. There are people who cheat our tax system and exploit others to get more money. That doesn't make our tax system a bad one.


What difference does it make that indentured servitude gave way to chattel slavery? The point was it was a terrible life and the indentured were abused.  You claim this wasn't true of biblical slaves, but common sense and the history of indentured servitude leading up to today would say otherwise.

The difference is that the system was designed TO PREVENT ABUSE from happening and severely punsihed the perps, when it did. Chattel slavery stripped people of virtually all human rights, thus making the abuse entrenched within the system itself.

Of course slaves in biblical times were beaten. Men were forcibly circumcised.  Women were given to old men as surrogate birthing vessels. They were marked as possessions. They couldn't always leave with their families if these were owned as well. Was it as bad as chattel slavery? No, and for some there was an end in sight after 7 years. You could say they were a better class of slave masters. If you're offered a choice between being shot in the head or burned at the stake, most would choose the shooting, but all would prefer neither.


Slaves were beaten; so were sons, husbands, and other folks.

As for circumcision, most of that occured at infancy. The adult males, if they wanted to participate in Hebrew traditions and worship, were circumcised, too. We've already discussed the women issue. The men had to marry them and treat them as wives. If they discarded them, they were STILL on the hook for their care, including leaving the lion's share of their estate to the firstborn, from that dissolved union.

None of that happened with chattel slaves. A black woman's child from white man DID NOT have rights to his father's estate, whatsoever. And the black woman certaintly DID NOT get treated the way a white wife would.

The men could indeed leave with their families. The only issue was the marital status of the now-former servant PRIOR to his departure. If he entered servitude married; then he left with his wife and kids. If he entered single and didn't marry; he left single and unmarried.

If he left single but got married, and the master provided his bride, he could not leave with his wife and kids.....UNLESS he paid the dowry for her, which is no different than what he would have had to do for the master's daughter. As the saying goes, "No romance without FINANCE!!! " ;D




Deedee

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #230 on: December 13, 2008, 04:38:32 PM »
Dedee,


Where were you for the first few pages of this thread?

I've been fighting the good fight against these "Post a link!"; "Quote the scriptural verse!"; "Prove it didn't!" ignoramae all alone.


The Luke

I pop in and out, but seems you all were doing fine.  A lot of this stuff is reruns.  ;D

Besides, no one is going to change anyone's mind. We're just... arguing.  :)

The Luke

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #231 on: December 13, 2008, 04:44:33 PM »
McWay,


Ad hominem attacks aside, a close reading of this thread would plainly demonstrate that several impartial readers have been won over by MY argument. You've only got Loco...

I have proved ALL my claims to the satisfaction of any rational person... if this subset doesn't include you then that's your problem.



On the contrary, you've so far justified and defended slavery; rape; genocide and infanticide... how can you even call yourself a Christian at this point?

You're so entrenched in your literal-word-of-god mindset that you can't accept the plain black and white reality of hat the Bible actually says. Take that beam out of your eye my friend...


The Bible goes much further than just condoning slavery.

It condones rape; brutality; genocide; infanticide; genital mutilation; torture; and all sorts of exploitation.

But worst of all... it deludes otherwise honest people into believing such abominations can be condoned.



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Deedee

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #232 on: December 13, 2008, 05:21:50 PM »
Yet, no one went after Hagar. And she returned of her own will. The fact that Hagar was not Hebrew is simply an example of foreign servants, not being under the lock-and-key scenario that some have claim foreigners were.

The first time she ran away out of desperation. We have no idea how much stealth was involved, and since Sarah hated her guts, seems unlikely she would have sent out a search party anyway. Second time, Hagar was cast out, basically sent to die out in the desert, the ultimate mistreatment of one's slave. (Which she remained even after her forced sexual relationship with Abe. She was a slave/concubine of the lowest order, certainly not a second wife. Sarah says as much.)

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The problem with your assessment, Deedee, is that we have NO indication of any mistreatment by Sarah, PRIOR to her concocting the idea to have Abe produce the promised child through Hagar. Once Hagar gets pregnant, then we see the static building. After all, Sarah is barren and Hagar is boasting about her pregnancy (and perhaps, more favorable treatment from Abe). Again, few things hurt ANE women more than NOT being able to have kids. I think Sarah's having her plan backfire in her face (combined with Hagar's antagonizing) became more than she could bear.

Doesn't matter. You're making excuses. If it was okay for Sarah to mistreat Hagar over jealousy... seeing as how she was still her slave, it stands to reason that others applied extreme punishment to their own slaves. If jealousy was a good enough reason to throw a defenseless person into the desert, what happened when someone did something really bad, like lose a goat or something? Guess you could beat the crap out of them, put them into a coma maybe.

The OT doesn't allow that. Seems you could take Sarah's example to surmise that it happened though. That's my point.

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Murder is what could have potentially happened had Hagar stayed much longer, especially after Sarah finally had Isaac. Furthermore, nothing was going to happen to Hagar, once she left Abe and Sarah, as Mr. Meanie, Yahweh, promised BOTH Hagar and Abraham that Ishmael would father a great nation, as well. This something HE DID NOT have to do, as the original deal was that Abe's seed was to be greatly multiplied via a child FROM SARAH.

Hagar was lucky Yahweh intervened.  How many others didn't garner his attention?

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The rapists weren't given the option. The bride and her family (Dad, in particular) exercised that option. And this applied to single women. The only reason he's being kept alive is to ensure that the victim has PERMANENT material care. If she had that already, the rapist would have been put the sword, almost immediately.

Really, where does it say that? I'm actually curious, as I have never seen it. You're right though, I misspoke. It wasn't the rapist's choice. But normally, a girl would be taken care of in the material sense, once she was married or sold off into slavery. No one would marry used goods. It was a good deal actually. Any sadistic, boil-infested, goat-feces encrusted, snaggle-toothed cretin could simply lie in wait, rape the prettiest girl in the village and voila, if dad said okay, she was his to rape for the rest of her miserable life, and hopefully they brought forth lots of snaggle-toothed babies.   :)

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The issue wasn't whether or not people try (successfully or not) to be above the law, but whether the law itself is a just and fair one. There are people who cheat our tax system and exploit others to get more money. That doesn't make our tax system a bad one.

It IS the issue at this point! At least one person on this thread has pointed to the laws of the OT to INSIST and PROVE that no crimes could have POSSIBLY occurred, (those such as slavemasters pressuring their slaves for sex). Those constitute half the posts.

My point is just because there are semi-just laws in place, doesn't mean people aren't abused, or that they represent a just institution.

All anyone has to do is read the stories in the OT to see that half of it is a veritable lust-fest, some of it savagely violent, that many heros and heroines flouted the laws and were unpunished for it. There are stories where deceit, cunning, behind the scenes machinations and crime are basically rewarded.

- Joseph's brothers kidnap and sell him.  They go unpunished. Later when he's famous, Joseph plays with their heads.
- Lot's daughters get him liquored up and have sex with him. (Disgusting! :-X) Their incest goes unpunished.
- Dinah is raped and when the rapist tries to do the right thing, her brothers insist everyone in the village be circumcised as a sign of good faith, then while the men are still writhing in pain days later, go in like cowards and kill everyone, even the innocents. No one is punished. Where were the elders?
- Tamar is raped by her half-brother, who then despises her. Her brother finally avenges her a couple of years later. The elders aren't brought into it at all.
- Jacob is so greedy he blackmails his starving brother Esau, then deceives his dying blind father into giving him his brother's birthright. His mother is complicit.
- After Jacob toils for seven years, what's his name renegs on their deal and switches Leah for Rachel on the wedding night, then blackmails another seven years of work out of Jacob to earn the wife he really wanted.
- Sarah gives her slave Hagar to her old man, then mistreats and casts her out when she becomes preggers herself.
- King David has an affair with Bathsheba, then has her husband disappeared. No problem.


Those are off the top of my head.  So, one revolting thing after another...do you find it IMPOSSIBLE that some lust-filled slave owner wouldn't take advantage of a young slave girl? Come on! Those primitive people were obsessed with sex one way or another. And of course they would get away with it. And of course it was expected. And it continued throughout history.

And even if they married these girls, these were basically sham marriages, the women were second class concubines with no inheritance rights for themselves. They had to be clothed and fed. Which happened anyway since they were slaves.

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Slaves were beaten; so were sons, husbands, and other folks.

As for circumcision, most of that occured at infancy. The adult males, if they wanted to participate in Hebrew traditions and worship, were circumcised, too. We've already discussed the women issue. The men had to marry them and treat them as wives. If they discarded them, they were STILL on the hook for their care, including leaving the lion's share of their estate to the firstborn, from that dissolved union.

None of that happened with chattel slaves. A black woman's child from white man DID NOT have rights to his father's estate, whatsoever. And the black woman certaintly DID NOT get treated the way a white wife would.

The men could indeed leave with their families. The only issue was the marital status of the now-former servant PRIOR to his departure. If he entered servitude married; then he left with his wife and kids. If he entered single and didn't marry; he left single and unmarried.

If he left single but got married, and the master provided his bride, he could not leave with his wife and kids.....UNLESS he paid the dowry for her, which is no different than what he would have had to do for the master's daughter. As the saying goes, "No romance without FINANCE!!! " Grin

Free folks were beaten by the elders for single crimes or trangressions. Slaves could be beaten or abused just for being in the path of an owner in a bad mood.

Circumcision occurred in infancy, except in the cases where foreign born were enslaved. And I beg to differ about the "woman issue."  If someone lusted after a slave girl, they were taken as second class concubines, and their off-spring were given some inheritance rights, but not those of real marriage progeny. Ishmael got nuttin! Leah and Rachel "gave" their slaves to be bred, but took those children away and raised them as their own. The concubines were unimportant details. I'm aware that slaves who married people belonging to the owner, weren't allowed to take them once they left unless the owner approved. And there's a difference in hoping to pursue someone you've not kissed, to losing a beloved wife and children that are a part of your heart  That must have been a wonderful way to live.

Slavery in biblical times may have been a way of getting what we would call the homeless off the street, a way for families to pay off debt, or pay for a crime, it was still slavery, no matter how much you like to sugar coat and excuse it. Actually, if Yahweh had spoken out against it back then, perhaps chattel slavery as we knew it in the South would've never occurred.

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The specific sex acts that warranted death involved adultery, bestiality, and homosexuality. With regards to the passage you quote, the slave girl consents but the money has not changed hands for her official bethrothment. That is why she is NOT executed. Once it becomes official, she is effectively MARRIED, making any consentual sex on her part......ADULTERY (which is punishable by death).

I don't follow. It specifically says that the reason she is not put to death is her slave status. Says nothing about money changing hands.

And what of the law decreeing that any woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night was to be stoned? How does that mesh with slaveowners having sex with their betrothed slaves and this not being a particularly bad thing?













The Luke

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #233 on: December 13, 2008, 05:53:30 PM »
...oh, the pwning... the pwning.



The Luke

Deedee

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #234 on: December 14, 2008, 11:35:50 AM »
In biblical times, how did slave owners use extortion and blackmail to avoid releasing Hebrew slaves when their time was up?

Simple, after his 6 year indentured servitude, you simply refused to sell him his wife and children. He was free to leave without, but if he truly loved his family... then his only choice was to swear an oath to stay a slave forever.  Yahweh has good business sense!

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21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:   
21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #235 on: December 14, 2008, 11:42:40 AM »
One question arises after all this.

Why would a decent person with morals decide to use a book like the Bible as a source for their life philosophy?
As empty as paradise

The Luke

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #236 on: December 14, 2008, 11:55:08 AM »
One question arises after all this.

Why would a decent person with morals decide to use a book like the Bible as a source for their life philosophy?

...brainwashing by means of pervasive propaganda.


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Dr Loomis

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #237 on: December 14, 2008, 12:29:50 PM »
It only took 10 pages for everyone to express that they interpret the OT differently  lol

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #238 on: December 14, 2008, 12:39:22 PM »
One question arises after all this.

Why would a decent person with morals decide to use a book like the Bible as a source for their life philosophy?

Because of  other sound philosophies contained in it and the doctrine for salvation.

It's unfortunate for them as they have to make excuses, spin, deny or ignore blatant instances of slavery, murder, rape, genocide etc..

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #239 on: December 15, 2008, 06:14:37 AM »
The first time she ran away out of desperation. We have no idea how much stealth was involved, and since Sarah hated her guts, seems unlikely she would have sent out a search party anyway. Second time, Hagar was cast out, basically sent to die out in the desert, the ultimate mistreatment of one's slave. (Which she remained even after her forced sexual relationship with Abe. She was a slave/concubine of the lowest order, certainly not a second wife. Sarah says as much.)

Nothing in the text suggests that this was a forced arrangement, especially with Hagar's holding her pregnancy with Ishmael over Sarah's head.

Doesn't matter. You're making excuses. If it was okay for Sarah to mistreat Hagar over jealousy... seeing as how she was still her slave, it stands to reason that others applied extreme punishment to their own slaves. If jealousy was a good enough reason to throw a defenseless person into the desert, what happened when someone did something really bad, like lose a goat or something? Guess you could beat the crap out of them, put them into a coma maybe.


The OT doesn't allow that. Seems you could take Sarah's example to surmise that it happened though. That's my point.

My point is that, notwithstanding that Hagar's being sent away had more to do Hagar and Ishmael's well-being, the laws don't become unfair or unjust, simply because somebody has broken or abused them. Our legal system is, perhaps, the best in the world today. But, there are STILL those who break the law or use legal loopholes to get away with abuse.

After 15 years of bickering between the two (especially with Sarah finally having Isaac), the dysfunction had finally reach the breaking point. Of course, had Abe and Sarah followed the Lord's instructions, none of this would have occured.


Hagar was lucky Yahweh intervened.  How many others didn't garner his attention?

God promised Abe that Ishmael would be the father of a great nation, which is why (even though it probably broke his heart to do it) Abe sent Hagar and Ishmael away.


Really, where does it say that? I'm actually curious, as I have never seen it. You're right though, I misspoke. It wasn't the rapist's choice. But normally, a girl would be taken care of in the material sense, once she was married or sold off into slavery. No one would marry used goods. It was a good deal actually. Any sadistic, boil-infested, goat-feces encrusted, snaggle-toothed cretin could simply lie in wait, rape the prettiest girl in the village and voila, if dad said okay, she was his to rape for the rest of her miserable life, and hopefully they brought forth lots of snaggle-toothed babies.   :)

You could say something similar for our legal system. Any "sadistic, boil-infested, goat-feces encrusted, snaggle-toothed cretin could simply lie in wait", rape a pretty girl, and (with the help of a good lawyer), get a simple slap-on-the-wrist jail sentence which, once served, gets him off the hook as he's "paid his debt to society".  Meanwhile the victim lives her life with a broken body, scarred psyche, a stack of medical bills, lost wages, etc.

Your statement makes the rather odd assumption that fathers simply didn't care for their daughters and would not make the right call for them, which is quite off-the-wall.



Exodus 22:16-17 covered the family, making the call, regarding marriage:

And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.



Deut. 22 covers the death penalty for rapists who assault married/betrothed women.

Deu. 22:25-26.

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

Verses 28-29:


If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days






It IS the issue at this point! At least one person on this thread has pointed to the laws of the OT to INSIST and PROVE that no crimes could have POSSIBLY occurred, (those such as slavemasters pressuring their slaves for sex). Those constitute half the posts.

My point is just because there are semi-just laws in place, doesn't mean people aren't abused, or that they represent a just institution.

All anyone has to do is read the stories in the OT to see that half of it is a veritable lust-fest, some of it savagely violent, that many heros and heroines flouted the laws and were unpunished for it. There are stories where deceit, cunning, behind the scenes machinations and crime are basically rewarded.

Again, my point is that people breaking and/or abusing the laws DOESN'T automatically equate to an unjust institution. Otherwise, you'd have to scrap our legal system, as it's had more than its share of violations and loopholes. As far as this laundry list of yours goes, you've left out a few details, which I'll be mroe than happy to include  ;D


- Joseph's brothers kidnap and sell him.  They go unpunished. Later when he's famous, Joseph plays with their heads.

You forgot one thing. His brothers told their father that Joseph had been killed by a wild animal. No one else knew about what really happened....UNTIL THE BROTHERS CONFESSED TO JOSEPH, not knowing who he was. And, Joseph FORGIVES them, stating that what they meant for evil, God meant for good. If Joseph (the victim in this scenario) can pardon his brothers, I think you can too, Deedee.  :)


- Lot's daughters get him liquored up and have sex with him. (Disgusting! :-X) Their incest goes unpunished.

And who's going to do the punishing? Sodom and Gommorah was in flames.


- Dinah is raped and when the rapist tries to do the right thing, her brothers insist everyone in the village be circumcised as a sign of good faith, then while the men are still writhing in pain days later, go in like cowards and kill everyone, even the innocents. No one is punished. Where were the elders?

On the contrary, Levi and Simeon were indeed punished for their actions.

Gen. 49:5-7

Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty[are in their habitations.

my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.





- Tamar is raped by her half-brother, who then despises her. Her brother finally avenges her a couple of years later. The elders aren't brought into it at all.

Last time I checked, Tamar and half-brothers Absalom and Ammnon were children of KING DAVID. As a matter of fact, part of the reason why Absalom takes matters into his own hands, regarding his sister (Absalom and Tamar shared both parents), is because David has Ammon exiled, instead of executed. And which elders are going to overrule the KING, anyway?


- Jacob is so greedy he blackmails his starving brother Esau, then deceives his dying blind father into giving him his brother's birthright. His mother is complicit.

Once again, when you don't follow the Lord's instructions, you get dysfunction. Isaac and Rebekah were told that the younger brother (Jacob) was to received the birthright. The blackmail, while deceptive indeed, held little actual consequence. When it comes to the birthright, the FATHER was the one who issued that to the son. Isaac, however, disregards the Lord's instruction and proceeds to bestow the birthright on Esau.

Rebekah overhears this and, fearing that God will not keep his promise (much like her mother-in-law), she hatches the plot with Jacob.


- After Jacob toils for seven years, what's his name renegs on their deal and switches Leah for Rachel on the wedding night, then blackmails another seven years of work out of Jacob to earn the wife he really wanted.

Rough translation.......You reap what you sow. The deceiver got deceived.


- Sarah gives her slave Hagar to her old man, then mistreats and casts her out when she becomes preggers herself.

Not quite. One, Hagar is a willing participant. Two, Hagar starts gloating about her pregnancy and Sarah's inability to have children; Three, Sarah doesn't throw Hagar out, once Sarah becomes pregnant. Hagar apparently passed her condescending ways to Ishmael, who was picking on/bullying Isaac.

Four, it was ABRAHAM, not Sarah, who made the final decision, regarding Hagar. And, he did that, only because God reiterated His promise that both Hagar and Ishmael would be prosperous and have their care provided for them. Otherwise, they would have stayed, REGARDLESS of Sarah's bickering.


- King David has an affair with Bathsheba, then has her husband disappeared. No problem.

Try that again. It's the prophet Nathan, who confronts David, pointing out his evil deed. David confesses and surrendered himself to the death penalty. But, Nathan informs him that, per the Lord's instructions, he and Bathsheba will be spared. But, their son will die. And, as a result of his treachery, the sword will not leave his household. And, based on what happened with his family, particularly his children, that curse kicked into gear more severely than David could have ever imagined.


Those are off the top of my head.  So, one revolting thing after another...do you find it IMPOSSIBLE that some lust-filled slave owner wouldn't take advantage of a young slave girl? Come on! Those primitive people were obsessed with sex one way or another. And of course they would get away with it. And of course it was expected. And it continued throughout history.

Those "primitive" people are no more obsessed with sex than our society is today. And, once again, the issue here isn't whether abuse occured within a legal system or society. It's whether or not the laws crafted, spoke our AGAINST SUCH ABUSE and PUNISHED THOSE ABUSERS, accordingly.


And even if they married these girls, these were basically sham marriages, the women were second class concubines with no inheritance rights for themselves. They had to be clothed and fed. Which happened anyway since they were slaves.

Free folks were beaten by the elders for single crimes or trangressions. Slaves could be beaten or abused just for being in the path of an owner in a bad mood.

Circumcision occurred in infancy, except in the cases where foreign born were enslaved. And I beg to differ about the "woman issue."  If someone lusted after a slave girl, they were taken as second class concubines, and their off-spring were given some inheritance rights, but not those of real marriage progeny.

Nope!!! Per the laws of Israel, the firstborn of the "hated" wife got the bulk of the father's estate. As for the "bad mood" thing, that doesn't mesh with the laws given the Israelites. They were instructed REPEATEDLY to be kind to the stranger or the foreigner and NOT to be cruel to those who served them. Why? Because of how they were treated in Egypt, about which the Lord was quick to remind them.

That's why these laws were in place, to punish those who were cruel.


Ishmael got nuttin! Leah and Rachel "gave" their slaves to be bred, but took those children away and raised them as their own. The concubines were unimportant details. I'm aware that slaves who married people belonging to the owner, weren't allowed to take them once they left unless the owner approved. And there's a difference in hoping to pursue someone you've not kissed, to losing a beloved wife and children that are a part of your heart  That must have been a wonderful way to live.


Once again, you forgot that God promised Abraham that Ishmael would prosper and be the father of a great nation. This He did, IN ADDITION to fulfilling the original deal of Abe's seed being made great via a child THROUGH Sarah.

As for the marriage issue, you again leave out the fact that the servants can and often DID leave with their families. The underlying issue was marital status, prior to servitude. If a man came into servitude single; that's how he left. If he entered married, he left married, with his kids.

And, if he entered single but married while serving his master. He had two options: One, stay under his master's employ to be with his wife and kids; Two, PAY THE DOWRY to get his wife and kids, as he would have had to do with a man's daughter (since the master provided the bride).


Slavery in biblical times may have been a way of getting what we would call the homeless off the street, a way for families to pay off debt, or pay for a crime, it was still slavery, no matter how much you like to sugar coat and excuse it. Actually, if Yahweh had spoken out against it back then, perhaps chattel slavery as we knew it in the South would've never occurred.

There's no sugar-coating involved. And, what you say makes no sense, given the facts.

God instructed that Hebrew servants were freed after 7 years; non-Hebrews were freed via other means; blacks weren't to be freed AT ALL.

God spoke out against kidnapping people from their homeland (doing so warranted DEATH); yet white people kidnapped blacks from America, with none dying for their actions.

God instructed that masters must marry any servant women, before having sex with them. Yet, white men raped black women for centuries, without mercy or conscience.

God instructed that if a servant got maimed, he was released from servitude; Yet, whites maimed and cripped blacks, with no freedom given to them for their injury.

God instructed that a master who killed his slave got the DEATH penalty; How many white masters got strung up for killing their slaves, again?

God instructed that the firstborn of the "hated" wife got the bulk of his father's estate. How many black children, fathered by white masters, got a piece of the plantation?

In fact, that's one of the points, here. Violation of how to treat those in serviture is what LED TO CHATTEL SLAVERY, in the first place.


I don't follow. It specifically says that the reason she is not put to death is her slave status. Says nothing about money changing hands.

That was being bethroted means: Someone has paid the dowry for a wife. If she consents, but no money has changed hands for her to be a wife to someone else, there is no betrothement, hence no adultery and no death penalty.

And what of the law decreeing that any woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night was to be stoned? How does that mesh with slaveowners having sex with their betrothed slaves and this not being a particularly bad thing?


Simple, as explained above. Once, the $$$$$$ for the dowry has changed hands, the betrothement is official. Effectively, the woman is married. Therefore, if she has sex with someone else, she has committed adultery. By law, BOTH she and the other guy get stoned to death.

Slaveowners CANNOT have sex with their servant girls, if they're betrothed to another man. In fact, they can't have sex with their servant girls AT ALL, unless they marry them first.

In biblical times, how did slave owners use extortion and blackmail to avoid releasing Hebrew slaves when their time was up?

Simple, after his 6 year indentured servitude, you simply refused to sell him his wife and children. He was free to leave without, but if he truly loved his family... then his only choice was to swear an oath to stay a slave forever.  Yahweh has good business sense!

21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:   
21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.



That was explained earlier, in part by the very verses you just listed.

Verse 3 indicates that, if the guy came into servitude MARRIED, then his wife must also go with him.

Then, there's verse 4. Again, the key is that the master gave him the wife (i.e. the servant DID NOT PAY the dowry). Once the servant pays the dowry, he gets his wife an kids and goes on his merry way.

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #240 on: December 15, 2008, 07:34:53 AM »
McWay,


Ad hominem attacks aside, a close reading of this thread would plainly demonstrate that several impartial readers have been won over by MY argument. You've only got Loco...

I have proved ALL my claims to the satisfaction of any rational person... if this subset doesn't include you then that's your problem.

And these "impartial" readers would be............

Deedee? Ummmm....NO!!

Ozmo? Hardly?

Deicide? PLEASE

L Dawg?  As if!!!!

Since we've had this discussion before, long prior to your putting your 2 cents into the equation, we pretty much know from those discussions (and others), what people's beliefs were from the start.



On the contrary, you've so far justified and defended slavery; rape; genocide and infanticide... how can you even call yourself a Christian at this point?

Defending rape? Apparently, you've missed the multiple statements I've made, regarding rapists getting the DEATH PENALTY. As for the rest of your spiel, what I've stated is God's actions for PROTECTING His people (as He promised He would do) from people who continuously attacked them without provocation. But, apparently, that part slipped your mind as well.


You're so entrenched in your literal-word-of-god mindset that you can't accept the plain black and white reality of hat the Bible actually says. Take that beam out of your eye my friend...


The Bible goes much further than just condoning slavery.

It condones rape; brutality; genocide; infanticide; genital mutilation; torture; and all sorts of exploitation.

But worst of all... it deludes otherwise honest people into believing such abominations can be condoned.



The Luke


The black-and-white of the Bible takes this rather spurious claim of yours to the cleaners.

Rape? Yep! Nothing says condoning of rape like capital punishment for the offenders.

Genocide/infanticide/slavery.........I'm sorry!!! What was supposed to be done about Israel's enemies again, particularly the ones that targeted their feeble and most vulnerable, scorched their crops, and kept assaulting them for over three centuries?


Genital mutilation? That foreskin being taken away at infancy.......OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!  ::)


BTW, the clock's still ticking. You were supposed to inform us of what the punishment was (other than the death penalty) for a master killing his servant. But, of course, in true Lukan fashion, you will duck the issue, hoping that someone else will cover your behind.

Deedee

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #241 on: December 15, 2008, 08:02:15 AM »

You could say something similar for our legal system. Any "sadistic, boil-infested, goat-feces encrusted, snaggle-toothed cretin could simply lie in wait", rape a pretty girl, and (with the help of a good lawyer), get a simple slap-on-the-wrist jail sentence which, once served, gets him off the hook as he's "paid his debt to society".  Meanwhile the victim lives her life with a broken body, scarred psyche, a stack of medical bills, lost wages, etc.

Your statement makes the rather odd assumption that fathers simply didn't care for their daughters and would not make the right call for them, which is quite off-the-wall.


Most rapists get at least 7 years.  Big difference is that the victim isn't then offered as a prize or reward for the crime.  I think most victims would prefer the medical bills over being thrown into marriage with the scummy criminal.

I would say that the OT justice and customs mirror what goes on in Saudi Arabia today,  so I'm going to say that yes, probably many fathers made terrible calls for the daughters, based on societal pressures, not her happiness.

Quote
Deut. 22 covers the death penalty for rapists who assault married/betrothed women.

Deu. 22:25-26.

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

Verses 28-29:


If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days

That's what I though. Goes back to punishment meted out for messing with a man's property rather than harm to the victim.  The betrothed woman already belongs to someone so the death penalty is applied.  The unbetrothed girl is damaged goods so the father can either give his daughter to the rapist, or shut up.  There is no further punishment in that case.

Gotta run but will answer the rest.

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #242 on: December 15, 2008, 08:18:51 AM »
And these "impartial" readers would be............

Deedee? Ummmm....NO!!

Ozmo? Hardly?

Deicide? PLEASE

L Dawg?  As if!!!!

Since we've had this discussion before, long prior to your putting your 2 cents into the equation, we pretty much know from those discussions (and others), what people's beliefs were from the start.

Defending rape? Apparently, you've missed the multiple statements I've made, regarding rapists getting the DEATH PENALTY. As for the rest of your spiel, what I've stated is God's actions for PROTECTING His people (as He promised He would do) from people who continuously attacked them without provocation. But, apparently, that part slipped your mind as well.


The black-and-white of the Bible takes this rather spurious claim of yours to the cleaners.

Rape? Yep! Nothing says condoning of rape like capital punishment for the offenders.

Genocide/infanticide/slavery.........I'm sorry!!! What was supposed to be done about Israel's enemies again, particularly the ones that targeted their feeble and most vulnerable, scorched their crops, and kept assaulting them for over three centuries?


Genital mutilation? That foreskin being taken away at infancy.......OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!  ::)


BTW, the clock's still ticking. You were supposed to inform us of what the punishment was (other than the death penalty) for a master killing his servant. But, of course, in true Lukan fashion, you will duck the issue, hoping that someone else will cover your behind.


A case could made for me NOT being impartial.  But also, there is the fact that i DO believe in God.  I just don't believe the bible in its entirety is his word.  We have also been able to keep this discussion between you and i from digressing to ad-hom.   Luke brings very good points and does the research i am too lazy or unmotivated to do.  The Lev verses were key because they are pretty straight forward.

As for justifying genocide, because thats what I think you are doing when you ask what was Israel supposed to do.  I don't know what the answer is supposed to be.   I just know that genocide is probably one of the most evil things that can be done.  And this was done by the very entity that's supposed to be all that is good.  I also know that history is written to justify the actions of the victors.  It always is.  So the account of the amalikites is more than tainted.  Yeah scorched crops = killing children.

In addition, circumcision is ridiculous.  It's taken until just in the last 10 years for most of American society/medical proffesion to see how stupid it is.

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #243 on: December 15, 2008, 08:27:12 AM »
Most rapists get at least 7 years.  Big difference is that the victim isn't then offered as a prize or reward for the crime.  I think most victims would prefer the medical bills over being thrown into marriage with the scummy criminal.

I’d hardly considered a lifetime of having your wages garnished or the death penalty a “prize”, for a crime committed. Plus, even with our system giving seven years (and that's hardly a minimum, as I've seen rapists get less than that), that still leaves the victim with a lifetime of trauma and a stack of bills for medical care. I'd say they don't want the bills or the marriage. They'd want the perp to suffer and the payment of the bills, NOT to come out of their own pocket.



I would say that the OT justice and customs mirror what goes on in Saudi Arabia today,  so I'm going to say that yes, probably many fathers made terrible calls for the daughters, based on societal pressures, not her happiness.

I would beg to differ. The "societal pressure" would be to restore the honor of the daughter and the family. Care for that young woman is the one (AND ONLY) reason, the perp is being kept alive. Otherwise, he's getting his own personal rock concert or the sword.



That's what I though. Goes back to punishment meted out for messing with a man's property rather than harm to the victim.  The betrothed woman already belongs to someone so the death penalty is applied.  The unbetrothed girl is damaged goods so the father can either give his daughter to the rapist, or shut up.  There is no further punishment in that case.

Not quite. The family gets the dowry, whether the marriage takes place or not. And, the issue is care for the daughter, as she's been violated.

Plus, for the betrothed woman, "for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter"... It is seen as the equivalent of murder.




Gotta run but will answer the rest.


No problem. See you when you get back!!  ;D

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #244 on: December 15, 2008, 08:46:09 AM »
A case could made for me NOT being impartial.  But also, there is the fact that i DO believe in God.  I just don't believe the bible in its entirety is his word.  We have also been able to keep this discussion between you and i from digressing to ad-hom.   Luke brings very good points and does the research i am too lazy or unmotivated to do.  The Lev verses were key because they are pretty straight forward.

Straight-forward but incomplete, as you left out the other verses, which I cited to make the points about non-Hebrew servants.


As for justifying genocide, because thats what I think you are doing when you ask what was Israel supposed to do.  I don't know what the answer is supposed to be.   I just know that genocide is probably one of the most evil things that can be done.  And this was done by the very entity that's supposed to be all that is good.  I also know that history is written to justify the actions of the victors.  It always is.  So the account of the amalikites is more than tainted.  Yeah scorched crops = killing children.

Once again, you're leaving out the other passages clearly explain the full extent of the Amalekites' actions (BTW, if the crops get scorched and the Israelites can't provide food for their families, what do you think happens to THEIR CHILDREN?).

You said you don't know what supposed to be done. And, that's the point. SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE, about the folks attacking Israel. But what do you do:

Nothing? Then, you blame God for not coming to the aid of His people.

Assimilate them? Then here comes all the complaints about “slavery”, that we've discussed for 10 pages.

Leave them to starve to death?  Then, accusations of cruelty start flying.

Utterly destroy them completely? Cue the genocide cries.

Plus, we've discussed your claims of history being written by the victors, a spurious one at best, consideirng a lot of the OT was written, when Israel was in BONDAGE to other nations (i.e. Babylon). Plus, there remains the question (as it relates to the Amalekites) as to why Saul would lose his throne for DEFEATING a long-time enemy AND walking away with all of their wealth and livestock, which the Israelites were PLEASED to have.


In addition, circumcision is ridiculous.  It's taken until just in the last 10 years for most of American society/medical proffesion to see how stupid it is.

Apparently, they're not Jewish.  And, just what were men planning to do with that foreskin, anyway?  ;D

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #245 on: December 15, 2008, 08:51:33 AM »
Straight-forward but incomplete, as you left out the other verses, which I cited to make the points about non-Hebrew servants.

Are they from the same book?

Quote
Once again, you're leaving out the other passages clearly explain the full extent of the Amalekites' actions (BTW, if the crops get scroched and the Israelites can't provide food for their families, what do you think happens to THEIR CHILDREN?).

You said you don't know what supposed to be done. And, that's the point. SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE, about the folks attacking Israel. But what do you do:

Nothing? Then, you blame God for not coming to the aid of His people.

Assimilate them? Then here comes all the complaints about “slavery”, that we've discussed for 10 pages.

Leave them to starve to death?  Then, accusations of cruelty start flying.

Utterly destroy them completely? Cue the genocide cries.

Plus, we've discussed your claims of history being written by the victors, a spurious one at best, consideirng a lot of the OT was written, when Israel was in BONDAGE to other nations (i.e. Babylon). Plus, there remains the question (as it relates to the Amalekites) as to why Saul would lose his throne for DEFEATING a long-time enemy AND walking away with all of their wealth and livestock, which the Israelites were PLEASED to have.

Assuming God is omnipotent, he could have teleported them (amalikites) to another planet that sustains life but is uninhabited.

Problem solved.  ;D

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #246 on: December 15, 2008, 09:36:49 AM »
Verses 28-29:


If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days


...McWay, do you even read the verses you are quoting?

That verse clearly states that the punishment for rape in this instance is 50 shekels of silver... if the victims father doesn't want the hassle of having to sell on damaged goods he can also insist on the forcible marriage of the rapist to his daughter. No death penalty for rape if the woman isn't owned.

Plain, simple, black and white fact... why quote such a verse if you are trying to argue the contrary?

50 shekels in exchange for permanent ownership of the victim... sounds like a rapists fantasy.


Also, I believe you owe me an apology... doesn't the "because he hath humbled her" use of the Hebrew word "anah" in this instance clearly demonstrate my claim that the proper translation in a sexual context is "rape"?

Seems you have undermined two of your own arguments at once.


Regarding the Amelkites, couldn't god have simply insisted that the Hebrews adopt all the children under 12 rather than butcher them? Couldn't Yahweh be bothered to tell his eager genocidists that the murder of innocent children is always wrong? Even when it would have saved thousands of innocent children? Isn't that lazy?


The Luke

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #247 on: December 15, 2008, 10:43:46 AM »
...McWay, do you even read the verses you are quoting?

That verse clearly states that the punishment for rape in this instance is 50 shekels of silver... if the victims father doesn't want the hassle of having to sell on damaged goods he can also insist on the forcible marriage of the rapist to his daughter. No death penalty for rape if the woman isn't owned.

Plain, simple, black and white fact... why quote such a verse if you are trying to argue the contrary?

50 shekels in exchange for permanent ownership of the victim... sounds like a rapists fantasy.

Apparently, YOU can't read the verses, Luke.

I already differentiated the issue between a married/betrothed woman and a non-married/betrothed one. For the latter, the family gets the dowry....WHETHER THE MARRIAGE TAKES PLACES OR NOT. That's in Exodus, which you conveniently left out, in your haste to make this inaccurate post.

Therefore, the father is not left with “having to sell damaged goods”. The money is already there.

For the former, the care for the daughter is already in place. Therefore, the rapist get put to death.



Also, I believe you owe me an apology... doesn't the "because he hath humbled her" use of the Hebrew word "anah" in this instance clearly demonstrate my claim that the proper translation in a sexual context is "rape"?

Seems you have undermined two of your own arguments at once.

I owe you no such thing. In fact, you just undermined your own argument, as your initial claim was NOT that the term, “anah” meant rape. You said that it was a “softening” of the supposed correct translation of the text. Now, you’re claiming that the word was used correctly?


You’re talking about two DIFFERENT texts. One is in Deut. 21, which speaks of a woman being DIVORCED from her husband; hence you have the “humbled” part.

The other is Deut. 22, in which the context CLEARLY INDICATES that the woman was raped.

Per that text (and that of Ex. 22), if the woman is raped and the family decides that the marriage will occur, he CANNOT DIVORCE HER, PERIOD!! Nothing voids his obligation of material care (the sole reason he is being kept alive).

In short, you have the generic word, “anah”, used in both texts. But, you have specific form of being “humbled” clearly spelled out. One form is divorce; the other form is rape.



Regarding the Amelkites, couldn't god have simply insisted that the Hebrews adopt all the children under 12 rather than butcher them? Couldn't Yahweh be bothered to tell his eager genocidists that the murder of innocent children is always wrong? Even when it would have saved thousands of innocent children? Isn't that lazy?


The Luke

Ummmm…….that would be the assimilation part, about which you’ve been whining, when referencing the verses about taking the little ones from foreign enemies of Israel.

Given the 300+ years that the Amalekites had to repent of their actions, the judgment on them can hardly be called “lazy”.

It goes back to what I’ve said earlier. No matter what scenario goes down, you will find some reason to complain about the judgment brought upon the Amalekite people.

The Luke

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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #248 on: December 15, 2008, 11:23:46 AM »
For the former, the care for the daughter is already in place. Therefore, the rapist get put to death.


The other is Deut. 22, in which the context CLEARLY INDICATES that the woman was raped.

So you agree that we are referring to a rape... and if the woman has the right of marriage refusal, as you insist these supposedly emancipated right-having women of Old Testament times did indeed have, (I seriously doubt any of these tribal women had any rights over their own sexual consent), then we should assume that none of these rape victims ever married their rapists?

Right? No woman is ever going to willingly marry their rapist (with no possible recourse to divorce).

...so the rapist goes free, just 50 shekels of silver: no flogging, no beating, no stoning, no death penalty.

Just a downpayment of 50 shekels and perhaps a dowry (paid to the owner of the woman, not the woman herself).


So what does the victim get?

She doesn't get the compensation... she can't be betrothed as no one will marry a non-virgin... so no-husband, no lovers (adultery), no children, no income, no life and no prospect of a life.

...and the rapist just gets hit in the wallet... all because the woman wasn't "owned" when the guy jumped and raped her.

How can anyone apologise for this... condoning slavery? The women were slaves, let alone the actual slaves.



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Re: Does the Bible condone slavery?
« Reply #249 on: December 15, 2008, 12:11:13 PM »
So you agree that we are referring to a rape... and if the woman has the right of marriage refusal, as you insist these supposedly emancipated right-having women of Old Testament times did indeed have, (I seriously doubt any of these tribal women had any rights over their own sexual consent), then we should assume that none of these rape victims ever married their rapists?

Well, looka here!! The chief town crier about "intellectual dishonesty" is indulging in a healthy dose himself.

Your initial claim about the term "anah" is that it was a softening of the translation. Now, you switch your story, claiming that it was correct.

Plus, as you feebly attempted to leave out, the comparsion I used was between Deut. 21 and Deut. 22

One is in Deut. 21, which speaks of a woman being DIVORCED from her husband; hence you have the “humbled” part.

The other is Deut. 22, in which the context CLEARLY INDICATES that the woman was raped.


That's two different scenarios, in which one involves divorce and the other involves rape.



Right? No woman is ever going to willingly marry their rapist (with no possible recourse to divorce).

...so the rapist goes free, just 50 shekels of silver: no flogging, no beating, no stoning, no death penalty.

Just a downpayment of 50 shekels and perhaps a dowry (paid to the owner of the woman, not the woman herself).

Ummm....the so-called owner was her father. Fathers care for their daughters until they got married, a concept apparently lost on you.

So what does the victim get?

She doesn't get the compensation... she can't be betrothed as no one will marry a non-virgin... so no-husband, no lovers (adultery), no children, no income, no life and no prospect of a life.

...and the rapist just gets hit in the wallet... all because the woman wasn't "owned" when the guy jumped and raped her.

If that's the case, why are you complaining? Is this woman simply supposed to go without her material need addressed, simply for being the victim of a horrible crime?

And, unless I missed something, I see nothing preventing the father from giving his daughter the dowry, especially if she is firstborn (and he has no sons).

Plus, 50 shekels was hardly just a "hit in the wallet".


How can anyone apologise for this... condoning slavery? The women were slaves, let alone the actual slaves.


The Luke

If they were "slaves", there would be NO penalty whatsoever for their being assaulted (as was the case with black women during U.S. slavery). What white dudes got strung up, if a married/engaged black woman got violated? Where was the clause, giving black women status as wives, and their firstborn (from the white fathers) a "double portion" of the master's estate?