Author Topic: Androgens VS Anabolics  (Read 15513 times)

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Androgens VS Anabolics
« on: December 21, 2008, 09:37:59 PM »
I posted this a will back as an answer to a question I was asked on another board and thought some of you may be interested in seeing it.




I will try and answer your question in a more general way and just give you some of my opinions as far as supps go. When I mentioned that there are a lot of things that are being used that don't really contribute to one's physique I was reffering more the ancillary drugs more than steroids. I fear that most of you will be some what disappointed about what I have to say. There are no real secrets to getting big. If there is I would say it's more about what you don't do than do.

IMO steroids are king in building muscle and most likely always will be. Take GH for example. I've known guys over 40 that take it and get pretty decent results as far as a rejuvination drug. A couple of IU's a day is all you need when your older to get good results. Most bodybuilders (younger) will take anywhere from 4 to 9 iu's daily. Most guys expect to make huge gains from taking GH. I've never really known anyone to gain any appreciable amount of muscle from GH alone. Everyone says to take it with gear but how do you know that it's the GH that is working? As far as I'm concerned anything that you take by itself and doesn't work, isn't going to work by adding something to it. Most guys get nothing more from GH than a bit of water retention. If that's what you want then go eat some bacon. It's a hell of a lot cheaper and more fun.

Same for IGF. I did get some fat loss from IGF but I did not gain anything in the way of muscle. It's popular to use IGF, clomid and or HCG to bridge after a cycle and to keep the gains that you have made. 30 days is the norm. So many guys tell me that they lose only a couple of pounds by doing this and their strength is maintained pretty well. Most guys are walking around with a test/epitest ratio of 20:1 or even more. How much do you really think your levels are goint to drop in 30 days? I can tell you by actual blood test results not much at all if any. I friend of mine (who reads this board, hey bro) was remarking to me how surprised he was to have maintained a lot of his mass (not all) over the last 4 months that he has been off. This doesn't surprise me as the body can and will hold on to muscle longer than you think. But if he was taking IGF for example I'm willing to bet he would be praising the effects of the IGF right now and how great it is for maintining mass. Get my drift?

Some guys bridge with anavar or something similar. Waste if time, period. How can anyone think that you are going to maintain gains that you have made from taking 2 grams a week by using 40mgs of anavar a day??? Your either on or off. Your either growing or your not. Things are different today than years ago. Take Arnold for example. He competed once a year and in the off season he got off the drugs and got small. Most guys today don't even compete and want to be big all year round. Nothing wrong with that, but lets face it, when you come off drugs you get smaller. This after all is proof that steroids work in the first place.

Over the years I have witnessed many different steroids cycles from the very complicated to the most basic. People tend to forget that steroids were not invented for bodybuilders. You don't need to lift weights to grow muscle from taking them. Don't get me wrong, it sure helps. In fact it's a must to get huge, but my point is that they are very powerful muscle enhancing drugs. I think that people don''t give them enough credit. They somehow feel if they give them credit then they look like cheaters. Not true, a lot of hard work goes into building a big body, but at the same time they are the guys who take a few d-bol a a shot of deca a week and grow like a weed and to top it off they don't even lift that hard. I'm sure we all know someone out there like that. Well lifes not fair, get used to it. We all have out strong points, some more than others.

IMO test is the best steroid to use for growth. Technically it's not an anabolic steroid, but a male sex hormone. AS were invented to mimic the results of test and minimize the side effects or the secondary sex charactaristics. The problem is that the anabolic and androgenic effects work hand in hand. People tend to feel pretty good on test and get great gains. This is no coincidence. Our bodies already produces it and it knows how to accept it better than any other steroid.

IMO test should be the foundation of a cycle. Throw in another injectable maybe and an oral. NO, orals are not that dangerous. Another misconception. Not to contradict myself, but I know guys who loves deca and d-bol and hardly ever use test. They gets great results and yep, they still able to do the nasty. Another misconception. I'm sure this is not true for everyone.

Test,(any kind) deca, Eq (not as much) d-bol , A-50's ect. These drugs have built most of the mass you see on stage today. I guess I should give honerable mention to trenbolone. This is a weird drug. Very powerful. The late Dan Ducahine once said that no one should ever use it unless they were a serious competitor. I agree. I'd say about 500mg is about a powerful as a gram of test. I think it's too hard on the body in many ways, escpecially if your older. I've known a few guys to complain about an enlarged prostate from it. Even younger guys. Throw it in the last few weeks before a show and that's it.

Getting big is not rocket science. Forget about all these fancy cycles and different ways to take stuff. It's impotant to keep an eye on your BP and take an anti-estrogen only if needed. Stick to the basics and you will grow. I realize that this only touchs upon the subject at hand and a lot more can be said. Hopefully I have not offended anyone here. These are just my opinions and I realize not everyone (maybe no one  ) will agree. Even when I disagree with someonew I still respect their opinion. Peace

Stavios

  • Guest
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2008, 09:50:40 PM »
Great post Jim !
a couple of months ago, I didn't agree with that.

but as the time goes by, trying a few drugs here and there, I agree with everything you said.

also, no one should every underestimate genetics, in term of reacting to the drugs.
I have used some pretty decent dosages and I am still pretty "non-muscular" as far as bodybuilding goes.
A friend of mine gained more muscle in 3 months from taking 50 mgs of d-bol a day than I did in a year using various steroids.

to get big, it's either you have it or you don't.

taking myself for example, I don't think I'll ever see the day when I am 220 lbs onstage (at 5'10)

flexingtonsteele

  • Competitors II
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5653
  • The new age pussy Punisher!
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2008, 11:19:51 PM »
wow great post jim.

u make things so simple and ez to understand.

definetey a diamond in the rough bodybuilding scene.

Thanx Jim

dustin

  • Guest
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2008, 11:55:39 PM »
Thanks for your insight, Jim. It's one thing to spend countless hours reading and researching about this stuff, but it's equally valuable to hear anecdotal feedback from someone who's had his head in the game and steered tons of people in the right direction!! Glad that you always decide to share these tidbits of knowledge with us!!! 8)

polychronopolous

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19041
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 06:54:18 AM »
Jim, when I first seen the "Disgusted Q&A" I didn't think much about it, and to tell you the truth I have never even opened the thread.

But after reading this short piece by you I am quickly becoming a fan of your work, and look forward to more posts by you, and I shall start reading your thread as well.

Quality post, look forward for more to come.

tbombz

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19350
  • Psalms 150
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 11:03:54 AM »
he cool post jim, nice read. thanks for sharing your thoughts.


Stavios

  • Guest
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 11:41:23 AM »
that's silly.. you could hit 220 onstage no problem. but even with steroids it takes *years* for a lot of people to build up.

I mean years of non stop use.. you will continue to gain.. slowly but surely.. just stay on. you will get larger if you eat enough.

if you want the size all of this *cycling* is a waste of time.


maybe... but I prefer "cycling" for my health  :)

2L2Q

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 43
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 05:31:25 PM »
maybe... but I prefer "cycling" for my health  :)

you are doing the right thing , you will get there if you don't quit and your career will be longer,and those like darrem,dex and even jay take breaks, cause you don't start using nonstop at 17  till  35,39  withou burning out,i believe taking breaks will make u healthier and better in the long run.at least that's what i believe

Van_Bilderass

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14758
  • "Don't Try"
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 04:54:16 AM »
now you've lost me... do you think its healthier to throw your body onto a constant hormonal roller coaster by jumping on and off as opposed to a constant, steady environment (staying on)?

why do you think that's better for your health?

health is something that can be monitored.. so unless you're doing insane dosages I don't see why you're bringing up health.



Reminds me of when an acquaintance of mine consulted with some doc who worked with some pros (I think Munzer was one of them). He said the doc told him that the worst thing he could do, healthwise, was to come off completely.  :D

WillGrant

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21058
  • Ron is Watching
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 04:59:23 AM »
Reminds me of when an acquaintance of mine consulted with some doc who worked with some pros (I think Munzer was one of them). He said the doc told him that the worst thing he could do, healthwise, was to come off completely.  :D
Ive said this before , but my endo says exactly the same thing.

 :)

Stavios

  • Guest
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2008, 05:45:59 AM »
now you've lost me... do you think its healthier to throw your body onto a constant hormonal roller coaster by jumping on and off as opposed to a constant, steady environment (staying on)?

why do you think that's better for your health?

health is something that can be monitored.. so unless you're doing insane dosages I don't see why you're bringing up health.



you are right, that's another way to see it James.

I just tought it was better to give the liver a break once in a while .

so what do you guys do ? you cruise with small doses between high doses ?

Figo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8101
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2008, 08:30:26 AM »
bump

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2008, 10:59:26 AM »
There is no such thing as bridging, you are either on or off. Take some clomid if you are going to be off for an extended period of time.

Stavios

  • Guest
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2008, 11:01:37 AM »
There is no such thing as bridging, you are either on or off. Take some clomid if you are going to be off for an extended period of time.

yeah that's what I did.
I am off since august.

2L2Q

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 43
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2008, 05:12:07 PM »
There is no such thing as bridging, you are either on or off. Take some clomid if you are going to be off for an extended period of time.

So disgusted ,as far as u know does some pros or good national competitors take breaks during the year?if so how long are those breaks?

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2008, 07:20:10 PM »
So disgusted ,as far as u know does some pros or good national competitors take breaks during the year?if so how long are those breaks?



King has been on a break for over three months, just for an example and yes there are some that do but many more that never do.

tbombz

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19350
  • Psalms 150
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2008, 08:34:47 PM »
disgusted what do you think is the optimal dose of testosterone?  more= better?


whats the craziezst stack of hormones youve ever heard of ?

LATS

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1190
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2008, 09:00:06 PM »
 the cold hard facts are that until you reach your optimal size, taking extended breaks is lke taking two steps forward and two steps back.. and if one is over 35 years of age it is negative to come completely off.. the natural test of one over the age of 35 is low enough to not add much muscle.. it is best to cruise at that age..  king can get away with it being the size he is right now but, i still believe that he should be on hrt dosage to keep hormones high enough to atleast make it productive.. 

tbombz

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19350
  • Psalms 150
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2008, 09:02:11 PM »
the cold hard facts are that until you reach your optimal size, taking extended breaks is lke taking two steps forward and two steps back.. and if one is over 35 years of age it is negative to come completely off.. the natural test of one over the age of 35 is low enough to not add much muscle.. it is best to cruise at that age..  king can get away with it being the size he is right now but, i still believe that he should be on hrt dosage to keep hormones high enough to atleast make it productive.. 
on clomid and hcg..his test is gonna b higher than an 18 yo natty..

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2008, 11:02:54 PM »
disgusted what do you think is the optimal dose of testosterone?  more= better?


whats the craziezst stack of hormones youve ever heard of ?

Depends on what you mean by optimal. The craziest dose of test that I have ever heard of was 10 grams per week. Lots of sides and water retention. Very quick weight gain, but the guy did not end up looking like Ronnie Coleman either.

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2008, 11:07:09 PM »
the cold hard facts are that until you reach your optimal size, taking extended breaks is lke taking two steps forward and two steps back.. and if one is over 35 years of age it is negative to come completely off.. the natural test of one over the age of 35 is low enough to not add much muscle.. it is best to cruise at that age..  king can get away with it being the size he is right now but, i still believe that he should be on hrt dosage to keep hormones high enough to atleast make it productive.. 


I agree with the first part of your post but I am not sure if I understand what you mean by the second part. I mean the part about being on HRT and it being productive.

BIG DUB

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2534
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2008, 11:46:08 PM »
What do you think about the 70/30 anabolic to androgenic ratio you read about?

Alex23

  • Guest
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2008, 11:59:31 PM »
DG, what's your take on the rampant absesses from non HG gears? User caused?

Makes want to stay clean for the rest of my flesh life..





Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2008, 12:41:22 AM »
DG, what's your tale on the rampant absesses from non HG gears? User caused?

Makes want to stay clean for the rest of my flesh life..






Actually they are quite rare. Out of the hundreds of guys that I see per year I have only seen one bad one ever. Also, just because an area swells up and gets red doesn't mean that it is an abscess.. A lot of UG drugs have a high level of BA and BB in them and they can be quite irritating to the skin. That on top of the high test mg per ml which is stupid, will cause that also. 

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: Androgens VS Anabolics
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2008, 12:43:30 AM »
What do you think about the 70/30 anabolic to androgenic ratio you read about?


I think that it is spot on IF that is the route that you want to take to bigger muscles. I think overall by using this ratio to force muscle growth you will end up with a better look in the long run, but remember that you will have to increase your dose as you get bigger.