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Author Topic: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER vs. SERGIO OLIVA: Who was the best?  (Read 54641 times)
johnny1
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« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2008, 08:38:17 PM »

Yip arnold had some good back thickness and width in the 1970s well heres the thickness on display Smiley


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« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2008, 08:40:45 PM »

Blatantly touched up 1970s style Grin Grin Grin..Sergio's calves didnot look big from the rear back then however Sergio always had Long muscle inserts in his calves even though he had the charming habit of not flexing his quads and calves as a whole with the rest of his body, in that pic of his "calves" its clear from the distortion in the picture by way of the blurring affect, the length and size have been shortened, i agree somewhat with the 1972 result as in it COULD of gone ether way as it was real close...however the point that others here@ getbig (and other websites) have made about politics @ the 72 show have some merit with all the negative stuff that had gone on before hand with Sergio's comments in non Weider mags, entering other non ifbb contests etc etc...too what extent we all will never know other than Mr Olympia 1972 is Arnold Schwarzenegger.
I personally think Sergio (in his best shape) had a better, balanced, structured physique than Arnold, after watching the 1972 O on DVD i think Sergio looks alot better than all the 72 O pics Ive seen, incredible mass, lines, quads, etc...id go with Sergio as Mr Olympia 1972 bye a whisker...

Sergio in '72 was incredible. I haven't done a thread about this contest yet, but there are alot of pics and footage that shows Sergio being at arguably his peak condition. That front lat spread I posted shows the extent of how great he looked. Arnold was rarely very impressive in the front lat spread, due to the upper-lower body imbalance, but did hold his own at that show.


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johnny1
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« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2008, 08:59:09 PM »

Sergio in '72 was incredible. I haven't done a thread about this contest yet, but there are alot of pics and footage that shows Sergio being at arguably his peak condition. That front lat spread I posted shows the extent of how great he looked. Arnold was rarely very impressive in the front lat spread, due to the upper-lower body imbalance, but did hold his own at that show.
Yes this picture here yourv'e posted of Sergio and Arnold's FDB is a Fantastic shot of 2 great physiques, and surprisingly enough i didn,t think Arnold's quads would look that good when i saw the shot for the first time, as with alot of Arnold's pictures when hes relaxed his quads look somewhat sub-par...then he flex's them and bang they look impressive,as everyone knows his hamstrings were his main weakness in the leg department, but when he'd rub them hard up against the side of his other leg all was well Grin Grin Grin
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pumpster
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« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2008, 11:22:29 PM »

Arnold's quads were usually undersized in these later shows, but he was able to offset the disadvantage as much as possible by good posing, excellent calves and very sharp and aesthetic quads.

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« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2008, 11:25:07 PM »



Both the 1970 and 1972 Mr. Olympia could have gone either way. The 1970 AAU Mr. World wasn't a Weider contest. Sergio is as much responsible by breaking the rules not once, but twice. Sergio was even preparing for the Mr. Olympia in '73 and there would be no justifyable reason why he wouldn't be allowed to compete, if he hadn't broken the rules a year earlier by competing in the WBBG Mr. Galaxy. The timing for his suspension, on the day of his win at the Mr. International, is odd, but rules are rules.



That's giving too much of a Weider/IFBB spin IMO.
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johnny1
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« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2008, 11:27:31 PM »

Heres another picture i scanned some time back out of a ironman mag of Sergio @ the 1973 International in Mexico with poor old Franco looking alittle uncomfortable next to him Grin Grin Grin...strangely enough the article that was directly underneath it concentrated on BBers on Steroids who abuse their wives Sad Sad Sad...the article is long gone Lips sealed Lips sealed Lips sealed


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pumpster
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« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2008, 11:33:07 PM »


Arnold's upper legs were sometimes a little weak when compared to his upperbody. His left arm, in some shots, looked smaller when compared to his right arm - speaking from a straight-on shot, not a twisting shot which purposely made the left arm look smaller. In some shots, Arnold's triceps are disproportionate to his biceps and hamstrings looking disproportionately smaller than quads - most notably in the side chest pose. At the 1968 IFBB Mr. Universe, his conditioning was horrible and he could have been alot bigger at the 1980 Mr. Olympia.

Sergio also had his flaws. Disproportionately small biceps, coupled with long biceps insertions and lack of detail between biceps and triceps when viewed from the front and back. Before 1980/1, a lack of detail between the muscles of the upper back, particularly in the back double biceps. Arnold always had great back detail and beats Sergio at the 1972 Mr. Olympia, because of superior detail and posing ability in this pose.

Make no mistake about it, though, Arnold had a very thick back and could match Sergio for thickness when they were competing together in the '70's.

I think that some of the standard suppositions about these two are incorrect.

In the case of arms:
Arnold's triceps are to this often considered weak. In fact they were quite well developed with good size, it was just (1) the outrageous bis and (2) the lack of great cuts that left them less noticed actually-very similar to Coleman. They both had the same thing, outrageous bis and large but less than great triceps cuts thus the tris were overlooked and deemed to be out of proportion to the bis, which i would say in both cases was untrue.

In Sergio's case it was the opposite-bis were quite large, but (1) overshadowed by outrageous tris and (2) the lack of much biceps detail, thus the assumption by some that the bis were undersized or weak when they weren't.


In the case of hamstrings, while Arnold's were poor that was true of most BBs at that time, thus it wasn't a big issue IMO.

In the case of Sergio's back, i'm not sure i agree that detail only came in during the early 80s-i think that what that was was an absence of pics taken of him in peak condition, given that by then he wasn't with Weider anymore-see the next paragraph. Also, he wasn't in great condition alot of the time, which compounded the issue.

The unfortunate thing about Sergio and any non-IFBB BB in the 70s is that the photography in most mags outside of Weider's wasn't great, thus there aren't alot of great contest and training shots of Oliva, not nearly the same number as readily seen with Schwarzenegger, which tends to tilt the bias in favor of Arnold, given the far more numerous and high quality pics available of him in his prime.

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johnny1
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« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2008, 11:35:58 PM »

I think that some of the standard suppositions about these two are incorrect. In both cases pertaining to upper arms.

The first is Arnold's triceps-they were quite well developed with good size, it was just (1) the outrageous bis and (2) the lack of great cuts that left them less noticed actually-very similar to Coleman. They both had the same thing, outrageous bis and large but less than great triceps cuts thus the tris were overlooked and deemed to be out of proportion to the bis, which i would say in both cases was untrue.

In Sergio's case it was the opposite-bis were quite large, but overshadowed by outrageous tris and the lack of much biceps detail, thus the assumption by some that the bis were undersized when they weren't.

The unfortunate thing about Sergio and any non-IFBB BB in the 70s is that the photography in most mags outside of Weider's wasn't great, thus there aren't alot of great contest and training shots of Oliva, not nearly the same number as readily seen with Schwarzenegger, which tends to tilt the bias in favor of Arnold, given the far more numerous and high quality pics available of him in his prime.


That last paragraph you wrote is exactly right.
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« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2008, 11:48:49 PM »

Agreed that there are more high-quality shots of Arnold in his prime than Sergio. That's why I look forward to Johnny's posts, to see the rare shots of The Myth!

Back in 1968, before Arnold even competed in his first Mr. Olympia, this very same question was being asked:


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johnny1
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« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2008, 01:19:25 AM »

Agreed that there are more high-quality shots of Arnold in his prime than Sergio. That's why I look forward to Johnny's posts, to see the rare shots of The Myth!

Back in 1968, before Arnold even competed in his first Mr. Olympia, this very same question was being asked:
That very Question was also (more than likely) running though the mind of the young upstart Arnold Schwarzenegger as he looked on @ frank Zane receiving his first place trophy @ the 1968 Mr Universe, being presented bye none other than the then reigning MR Olympia Champion Sergio Oliva,  who was (I'm assuming) a Guess Poser @ the show...again Calling on Mr Joe Roark... any  information @ all to go along with this Rare Picture of Sergio, his appearance and participation @ the show Smiley


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GoneAway
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« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2008, 06:45:42 AM »

That's giving too much of a Weider/IFBB spin IMO.

I was looking at it strictly from a rulebook perspective. I'd be interested in hearing your take on it, though.


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pumpster
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« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2008, 09:12:42 AM »

I was looking at it strictly from a rulebook perspective. I'd be interested in hearing your take on it, though.

Sure, here at the bottom of the page.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=114598.25
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« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2008, 08:35:13 PM »

Sure, here at the bottom of the page.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=114598.25


That doesn't explain why Sergio would enter two contests for rival organisations. If it was only (Joe) Weider who was responsible for killing off the feud, why would he give Sergio the option to compete in '71, '72 and '73? Granted, I can appreciate the suspicious nature behind his '73 DQ, but that doesn't explain the past two years (and why Sergio entered the '72 WBBG Mr. Galaxy, for example.)

If Sergio had not entered the '71 NABBA Universe, (Joe) Weider would not have had any reason to disqualify him from the contest. If he did DQ an honest Sergio, it would be very clear what was going on. But, the fact is, he had every right to DQ him from that contest. I acknowledge that Arnold was the best posterboy for the IFBB since Larry Scott and the Weider's probably did have an agenda to keep Arnold over Sergio, but Sergio did play a part in his own downfall from the IFBB. It was not all the Weider's doing.

It took alot of work in the gym to beat Sergio:


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pumpster
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« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2008, 09:53:09 PM »

That doesn't explain why Sergio would enter two contests for rival organisations.

That's only one tangent, which doesn't sufficiently explain it either, actually. Joe Weider was the biggest factor not only in Oliva being out of early 70s Olympias but also a huge part of an era of BB, that from the late 70s. It was due to Weider that Szkalak, Padilla, Robinson, Nubret, Oliva and Mentzer weren't around in the early 80s. A big part of why the early 80s Olympia winners were fairly mediocre in the context of those named above who weren't there.

Too much evidence there my friend, alot more than there is concerning triva about a rival organization.
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johnny1
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« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2008, 12:24:52 AM »

In 1974 Arnold wether in guess shows, in the mountions, or on  the stage was unstoppable.


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johnny1
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« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2008, 12:37:13 AM »

Sergio's lone win over Arnold, bad lighting (and picture quality) however the mass Sergio had in 1969 was enough to hold the youngster @ bay.


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johnny1
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« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2008, 12:50:50 AM »

In 1972 Sergio was near perfection.


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johnny1
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« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2008, 01:04:15 AM »

Sergio was already looking over his shoulder in 1969 Grin


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« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2008, 06:37:52 AM »

Great shots as always, Johnny. Thankyou! By the way, the single-arm biceps shot taken at Muscle Rock is actually from 1975, not '74.

Now, we all agree that the '72 Mr. Olympia was very, very close. Johnny, you think Sergio should have won, albeit by a whisker. My verdict it still out, and pumpster thinks it could have gone either way. What if Arnold's 1974 condition was up against Sergio's 1972 shape... Would it be so close? Who would have the upper hand and would there be a decisive winner this time?


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« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2008, 10:03:38 AM »

2 of the pictures of Sergio hitting twisting arm shots to the front and to the rear (both at 3/4) turn could be the most impressive photos ever taken. Just fucking amazing how big his arms lats and shoulders are compaired to his tiny waist! Shocked. Sergio was and is the man!
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« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2008, 11:09:01 AM »

I've felt for a long time that these two pics are good representations of each at their peak, and thus are a good basis for comparison. Not insignificant, thanks to the dearth of good Sergio pics in his prime.

At this level who is better is purely subjective, a matter of taste. No clear-cut winner.


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johnny1
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« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2008, 09:10:40 PM »

Great shots as always, Johnny. Thankyou! By the way, the single-arm biceps shot taken at Muscle Rock is actually from 1975, not '74.

Now, we all agree that the '72 Mr. Olympia was very, very close. Johnny, you think Sergio should have won, albeit by a whisker. My verdict it still out, and pumpster thinks it could have gone either way. What if Arnold's 1974 condition was up against Sergio's 1972 shape... Would it be so close? Who would have the upper hand and would there be a decisive winner this time?
The obvious i feel would 9 times out of 10 point towards a 1974 Arnold winning comfortably over a 1972 Sergio, (due to his improvements over his 72 shape witch was good) however as pumpster correctly pointed out @ the level those 2 were at in their primes it really comes down to subjectivity and there for a clearcut winner would be difficult to nail down.
From a personal prospective i feel both Arnold and Sergio @ their best on the same stage, under the same lighting, same conditions, neutral judges, no politics,(witch is still debatable) no negative history involved...i don,t believe Arnold would have both hands on the trophy in fact if the judges ACTUALLY judged the 2 physiques on the base's of Symmetry as in the Total Balance of the Physique, muscle groups, and the Skeletal Structure, condition, etc...id still be leaning towards a 1972 Sergio over a 1974 Arnold but its just that my own PERSONAL prospective.
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johnny1
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« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2008, 09:16:36 PM »

Before the 1972 Mr Olympia results were made Smiley


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johnny1
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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2008, 02:42:03 AM »

Arnold's FLS was never his Best pose but he sure looked good here.


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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2008, 08:03:08 AM »

I've felt for a long time that these two pics are good representations of each at their peak, and thus are a good basis for comparison. Not insignificant, thanks to the dearth of good Sergio pics in his prime.

At this level who is better is purely subjective, a matter of taste. No clear-cut winner.

That comparison really shows how far Arnold came in terms of upper leg development. He is absolutely destroying Sergo there in upper legs.

The obvious i feel would 9 times out of 10 point towards a 1974 Arnold winning comfortably over a 1972 Sergio, (due to his improvements over his 72 shape witch was good) however as pumpster correctly pointed out @ the level those 2 were at in their primes it really comes down to subjectivity and there for a clearcut winner would be difficult to nail down.
From a personal prospective i feel both Arnold and Sergio @ their best on the same stage, under the same lighting, same conditions, neutral judges, no politics,(witch is still debatable) no negative history involved...i don,t believe Arnold would have both hands on the trophy in fact if the judges ACTUALLY judged the 2 physiques on the base's of Symmetry as in the Total Balance of the Physique, muscle groups, and the Skeletal Structure, condition, etc...id still be leaning towards a 1972 Sergio over a 1974 Arnold but its just that my own PERSONAL prospective.

I think the best way to settle this is with a virtual bodybuilding contest. Arnold (1974) and Sergio (1972) being the only two competitors (when Zane, Nubret, and Ferrigno saw their competition, they ran for the hills.) Pics will decide who wins each round. We'll move onto the next round once we're all satisfied that enough angles have been covered.

Before we start, I want to see what your opinions are on using non-contest shots as a basis for comparison. I would rather keep it strictly to contest footage, as that's the truest form of comparing who would win in the shape they showed up at on contest day, but I'm open to suggestions. Once I get your opinions, we'll get this thing under way.
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