All machines vs. All weights... who wins?

[pumpster]

80/20...I love "coach's" completely arbitrary breakdowns.

[Camel Jockey]

One of the problems with machines is that you end up working the stronger side more than the weaker. Free weights tend to avoid this problem.

[The Coach]

80/20...I love "coach's" completely arbitrary breakdowns.

LOL.....quick and to the point. I get tired of explaining things after a while. I've became a man of few word as of late.

[pumpster]

One of the problems with machines is that you end up working the stronger side more than the weaker. Free weights tend to avoid this problem.

Actually if that were really important no one would use BBs, since they also cause that. Only DBs would be used, in order to maximize the stabilizer thing. So much for the stabilizer arguement. 

[The Coach]

One of the problems with machines is that you end up working the stronger side more than the weaker. Free weights tend to avoid this problem.

Only avioded if you add unlateral movements.

[Cap]

Based on what exactly. You have Oliva a former olympic lifter disagreeing with you. Me i find it easier to get intense on a machine, because going to failure doesn't carry as much of a concern about getting stuck with the weight or balancing it vs. just getting the weight up.

Everything I could say would be anecdotal and you could refute, and we could go back and forth.  If you are talking just lifting heavier, I would say most men could build a thicker stonger overall body with compounds.  

There are other intensity techniques, which you tout, that machines can be more useful for...example, HIT that Oliva liked.  I would never go to complete failure on Olympic cleans.  I would say that his Olympic lifting background, much like Coleman (mostly for football and PL) made there later lifting techniques all the more effective.

[Soundness]

Only avioded if you add unlateral movements.

You'd get even better results than machines or free weights if you just tied a cable around a few plates, attached it to a guy and had him sprint around cones as fast as he can! Right, Coach?  

[pumpster]

Everything I could say would be anecdotal and you could refute

Either side could be refuted, exactly why i wouldn't draw clear conclusions either way like some do.

[Cap]

Either side could be refuted, exactly why i wouldn't draw clear conclusions either way like some do.

For sure man.  I just didn't think the poster was right in saying that Olympic lifters or free weight lifters wouldn't look like BBers.  With the exception of 6-12 sets of curls a week, every football player I knew in college used compounds lifts and looked like BBers; so I believe his assertion to be false. 

Jones' results with his lifters obviously cannot be refuted so obviously both work which is why most guys use both for size.  The biggest non-athlete I know uses just cables for his arms and I think they tape about 19-20"; he is about 260 pounds at 6'5". 

[Master Blaster]

If they are both natural and lift with the same intensity, volume etc, the guy doing the free weights would be a bit more muscular than his twin who trains with machines and cables. Machines and cables complement free weights. You don't HAVE to do a particular exercise or routine to develop a body part - machines and cables can be very useful if you are training around an injury or even if you just like the way they feel as opposed to free weights.

Thanks for the sanity check!

Drug free= free weights
Roids= massive targeted muscle growth with machines

HTH 

[GoneAway]

If you look at the pictures, it's the same bicep with the same shape, he simply rotated his forearm differently to make the biceps appear to have a different shape...

Flex your biceps and rotate your fist... If you rotate your fist away from you (clockwise/to the front), your biceps will appear more "full" (longer). If you rotate your fist towards you (counter-clockwise/to the rear), your biceps will appear to have a higher "peak" despite being not as "full."  

Bodybuilders used to flex them in the more full, less peaked way. Sergio is one example if you look at his pictures. It's just a matter of how contracted you make the muscle by rotating your forearm when you flex it. Larry Scott used to flex his biceps for a fuller look, then later flexed them in the peaked way. The muscle didn't actually change, the way he flexed it did.

Factually disproven, unless this and other pics from latter in his career are photoshopped. That's highly unlikely, though.

[saucetradomous]

For sure man.  I just didn't think the poster was right in saying that Olympic lifters or free weight lifters wouldn't look like BBers.  With the exception of 6-12 sets of curls a week, every football player I knew in college used compounds lifts and looked like BBers; so I believe his assertion to be false. 

Jones' results with his lifters obviously cannot be refuted so obviously both work which is why most guys use both for size.  The biggest non-athlete I know uses just cables for his arms and I think they tape about 19-20"; he is about 260 pounds at 6'5". 

This olympic lifter I would say LOOKS like a bodybuilder.. but you cannot tell me that the only thing he does is olympic lifts.

[Cap]

This olympic lifter I would say LOOKS like a bodybuilder.. but you cannot tell me that the only thing he does is olympic lifts.

No point in arguing because I don't know.  I DO know female gymnasts who don't lift like BBers and could compete at figure shows.  I do know football players and wrestlers who could compete at local shows and win.

[Soundness]

Factually disproven, unless this and other pics from latter in his career are photoshopped. That's highly unlikely, though.

True, his biceps are more peaked now...

It appears as if his biceps simply grew bigger. Meaning, they just developed more over the years as he trained more, making them more and more peaked. Look at the inertion points. They stayed the same. However, his biceps got higher up (bigger) over time as he continued to make them grow.

[Master Blaster]

No point in arguing because I don't know.  I DO know female gymnasts who don't lift like BBers and could compete at figure shows.  I do know football players and wrestlers who could compete at local shows and win.

lol, keep dreaming!

[Cap]

lol, keep dreaming!

You do know he built the foundation of his body with power lifts right?  And how does posting a picture of Arnie on Dbol and Primo have anything to do with me saying that guys I know could win local BBing shows over regular dudes?  I didn't say they were on their way to Nationals to earn their pro card.

[GoneAway]

True, his biceps are more peaked now...

It appears as if his biceps simply grew bigger. Meaning, they just developed more over the years as he trained more, making them more and more peaked. Look at the inertion points. They stayed the same. However, his biceps got higher up (bigger) over time as he continued to make them grow.

That's very true; the insertion points stayed the same. But, the muscle belly changed from being evenly spread over the origin and insertion to being fuller (higher) peaked closer to the insertion - creating the "peaked" biceps. This happened through training.

[Soundness]

That's very true; the insertion points stayed the same. But, the muscle belly changed from being evenly spread over the origin and insertion to being fuller (higher) peaked closer to the insertion - creating the "peaked" biceps. This happened through training.

And he claimed to have accomplished this with preacher curls, correct?

[GoneAway]

And he claimed to have accomplished this with preacher curls, correct?

He started off with preachers and then later in his career moved onto spider curls; which he claims as the reason for building his peaked biceps.

[Alex23]

He started off with preachers and then later in his career moved onto spider curls; which he claims as the reason for building his peaked biceps.

so he "claims"..... muscle shape = genetics.... there's only so many fucking ways you can move your arms.... 

hahah ok "isolated-reverse-grip-bent-over-supination-curls".....

[webcake]

so he "claims"..... muscle shape = genetics.... there's only so many fucking ways you can move your arms.... 

hahah ok "isolated-reverse-grip-bent-over-supination-curls".....

I agree.

I mean i don't know if you actually can or not, but i roll my eyes when i hear people say "I need more biceps peak"...

[Palpatine Q]

If they are both natural and lift with the same intensity, volume etc, the guy doing the free weights would be a bit more muscular than his twin who trains with machines and cables. Machines and cables complement free weights. You don't HAVE to do a particular exercise or routine to develop a body part - machines and cables can be very useful if you are training around an injury or even if you just like the way they feel as opposed to free weights.

Free weights are harder to do cause you need to fire stabilizers and ancillary muscles to both push / pull a weight as well as keep it in the groove that you want. With machines, you follow a fixed groove, which is why you can push more weight - like a guy who benches 225 doing 450 lbs on a hammer strength bench press, for example.

There are some movements such as deadlifts that you just can't replicate using machines or cables, but then again, there are things like the leg press which stimulate muscle growth pretty well while giving you a level of comfort that you'd never get while doing free weights. So it's all up to you - as long as you are putting in the effort needed, you'll see results. That being said, the best thing to do would be to start with basic, compound movements using free weights and then moving on to machines and later, cables so you can properly exhaust the muscle group to the maximum possible extent.

BOOOOM     

My gym has this thing and it is a fucking Great,great machine.....can't say enough good things about it.

[tbombz]

so he "claims"..... muscle shape = genetics.... there's only so many fucking ways you can move your arms.... 

hahah ok "isolated-reverse-grip-bent-over-supination-curls".....

if you ever do "double bicep curls" with the cables...the peak definitely gets super pumped and noticeably more developed with time.