Author Topic: Hard Lesson for Israel  (Read 1510 times)

Benny B

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Hard Lesson for Israel
« on: January 09, 2009, 10:43:45 AM »
Hard Lesson for Israel

By Jackson Diehl
Friday, January 9, 2009; A17

Israel's military campaign in the Gaza Strip is failing, but there may be a silver lining. The war against Hamas is proving -- once again -- that the Middle East's extremist movements cannot be eliminated by military means. If the incoming Obama administration absorbs that lesson, it will have a better chance of neutralizing Iranian-backed groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah, and of eventually brokering an Israeli-Palestinian peace settlement.

Israel's bet was that it could substantially reduce Hamas's military capacity and then force it to accept a cease-fire with improved terms for Israel. Hamas, predictably, has refused to play by those rules. It has defined victory as its own survival; by that standard, it has no incentive to agree to a new truce unless it receives major benefits in return, such as an end to Israel's economic blockade.

That means Israel must choose among attempting to drive the Islamic movement from power (which would be hugely costly and leave its troops stuck in Gaza indefinitely), making significant concessions to Hamas or withdrawing without any assurance that rocket fire against its cities would cease.

At best, outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert might win an agreement for international forces to help stop the smuggling of new weapons from Egypt into Gaza, something that doesn't necessarily require Hamas's consent. But that won't stop Hamas from continuing to build its own rockets or from claiming that -- like Hezbollah in Lebanon -- it successfully resisted an Israeli invasion.

The trap that Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni have created for themselves lies not just in Hamas's ability to withdraw its fighters and rockets into mosques, schools and densely populated neighborhoods, where they could probably survive weeks of bloody fighting or go underground. The larger fallacy is the persistent conceit among Israeli leaders that Hamas can somehow be wiped out by economic strangulation or force of arms.

Unlike al-Qaeda, Hamas is not merely a terrorist organization but a social and political movement with considerable support. Its ideology, however repugnant to Israel and the West, is shared by a considerable slice of the population in every Arab country from Morocco to Iraq. Because it is extremist, it thrives on war, the suffering it inflicts on Palestinians, and the anger generated by the endless, graphic and one-sided coverage of the Middle East's satellite television channels. Every day this war continues, Hamas grows politically stronger, as do its allies in other countries and its sponsor, Iran.

Though Israel must defend its citizens against rockets and suicide bombings, the only means of defeating Hamas are political. Palestinians, who have no history of attraction to religious fundamentalism, have to be persuaded to choose more moderate leaders, such as the secular Fatah. In the meantime, Hamas's existence must be tolerated, and it should be encouraged to channel its ambitions into politics rather than military activity. That means, yes, elections -- like those Hamas won in 2006, when it took control of the Palestinian legislature.

Those elections took place over Israel's objections, and the outcome caused the Bush administration, which had championed democracy in the Middle East, to lose its nerve. But during the relative quiet of the past six months, when Israel and Hamas observed a semi-truce, politics was beginning to work. Polls conducted by Palestinians showed that Hamas's support was falling in Gaza and the West Bank. Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president and Fatah leader, was beginning to talk about holding new elections for president and the legislature; he thought he could win both.

Egypt was working on brokering a deal between the two Palestinian parties. A split began to emerge in Hamas between leaders who wanted to make that deal and extend the peace with Israel, and Iranian-backed hard-liners who wanted to draw Israel into a fight. Israel probably could have ensured that the moderates won the argument by offering to lift its economic blockade of Gaza in exchange for a continued cease-fire. It then could have focused on negotiating a two-state settlement with Abbas and on improving life for Palestinians in the West Bank, while Hamas absorbed the blame for the unremediable misery of Gazans.

Instead, Israel took the Iranian bait and chose to fight. Now, bogged down, suffering casualties and inflicting many more, creating terrible pictures for television, it will have to accept an unsatisfying settlement -- or prolong its agony indefinitely. It should settle so that the leaders chosen by Israeli voters in an election next month will have the chance to work with a fresh American administration on a smarter and more effective strategy for countering Iran and its clients -- one grounded in politics rather than bombs.
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shootfighter1

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 12:30:36 PM »
Granted its a mess and I agree there is no clear victory but what is the alternative?  Allow Hamas to keep bombing innocent Israeli citizens and cities?  Don't fight terrorism?  Allow radical islamic factions to keep hating and killing?  These people do not typically respond to negotiations.  They are religiously and culturally programmed to hate and take a militant interpretation of the Islamic religion.

At least they can disturb shipments of weapons, clear existing weapons, kill some of the active militants, and destroy supply tunnels.

Benny, are you muslim?

Benny B

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2009, 04:16:00 PM »
Granted its a mess and I agree there is no clear victory but what is the alternative? 
Try actually reading the article and you may find the answer to your question.  ::)

Quote
Benny, are you muslim?
No, are you? You are short-sighted due to your radicalized opinion of all Muslims. Most of the world (outside the U.S. bubble) is outraged by the slaughter of innocent civilians by Israel. Trust me when I tell you that it isn't just Muslims that get upset when schools are bombed and women and children are killed.

I don't gobble up the Israeli lobby's propaganda by the spoonful like most Americans are trained to do. The U.S. is the only friend Israel has on the planet, thanks to the decision of every prominent U.S. politician to get in bed with AIPAC and other hawkish Jewish organizations.
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2009, 05:50:55 PM »
Pure garbage.  Hamas must be defeated by all means regardless of the pity party they claim while hiding amongst women and children.

Arabs are cowards and hide amongst women and children rather than standing and fighting.

They are sewer rats and vermin that need to be extirminated.

24KT

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 05:05:40 AM »
According to the US, those 19 terrorists responsible for 911 hid among civilians too.
Not only did they hide amongst civilians, but they have a huge number of sleeper cells hiding in America.
Why didn't Bush simply carpet bomb it's own cities to route out and destroy any remnants of them?

This Israeli "military" operation is not destroying Hamas, ...the rockets are still firing.
What it's doing is destroying civilians, and breeding a whole new generation of extremists & terrorists.

Whose side am I on? The side of innocent civilians, ...wherever they're located.
w

Soul Crusher

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 06:24:31 AM »
So Israel should just pull out and allow itself to be bombed???? 

Hamas is getting whipped in this battle. 

jesusbod

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2009, 12:17:14 PM »
So Israel should just pull out and allow itself to be bombed???? 

Hamas is getting whipped in this battle. 

I agree. Keep pounding Hamas into the ground. That is the only way to fix this. Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel so why try... Beat them to a pulp. Install a new Palestinian government then start to negotiate peace. Palestinians screwed up when they elected a Hamas government. They are getting everything they deserve.

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2009, 01:11:26 PM »
I don't gobble up the Israeli lobby's propaganda by the spoonful like most Americans are trained to do. The U.S. is the only friend Israel has on the planet, thanks to the decision of every prominent U.S. politician to get in bed with AIPAC and other hawkish Jewish organizations.

see below -posters '3336333' and 'jesusbod' for shining examples of this ;D

Cavalier22

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2009, 02:52:34 PM »
palestinians who voted  for hamas, a organization who's only goal is genocide, are not innocent

btw, you do not know what carpet bombing is.  please stop using that phrase incorrectly
Valhalla awaits.

Slapper

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2009, 03:12:41 PM »
I agree. Keep pounding Hamas into the ground. That is the only way to fix this. Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel so why try...

That is not true.

Fucking bunch lies.

I fucking hate ignorance!!

tonymctones

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2009, 03:24:27 PM »
i can understand some of the articles points but it also ignorantly believes that israel should have continued to let hamas launch rockets at them in order to drum up support for the secular party in palestein. While yes if hamas was losing power the actions taken by israel will probably bolster power for hamas...but to not take actions means that they have to sit there and not take the bait which means letting themselves get bombed on a daily basis.

Slapper

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2009, 04:05:30 PM »
i can understand some of the articles points but it also ignorantly believes that israel should have continued to let hamas launch rockets at them in order to drum up support for the secular party in palestein. While yes if hamas was losing power the actions taken by israel will probably bolster power for hamas...but to not take actions means that they have to sit there and not take the bait which means letting themselves get bombed on a daily basis.

The question is why did Hamas break the ceasefire and began launching rockets again? If you do some research you will be susprised.

tonymctones

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2009, 04:09:32 PM »
The question is why did Hamas break the ceasefire and began launching rockets again? If you do some research you will be susprised.
ive heard something about israel killing some palestinians not quite sure on the facts of it all...but hamas didnt want a renewal of the ceasefire from what i understand.

Heres my question, what would you have israel do sit there and continue to let hamas fire rockets at them on a daily basis in order to not take the bait?

Slapper

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2009, 04:24:18 PM »
ive heard something about israel killing some palestinians not quite sure on the facts of it all...but hamas didnt want a renewal of the ceasefire from what i understand.

Heres my question, what would you have israel do sit there and continue to let hamas fire rockets at them on a daily basis in order to not take the bait?

No, it should not. Now, wouldn't you say that occupying that territory is not going to help matters? Hamas, as "evil" as they are portrayed to be, is open to talks with Israel with the only prerequisite that the negotiations have to be brokered by the UN or some international entity. Israel, on the other hand, shows up with so many prerequisites it is almost imposible to get ahead in anything.

In regards to Gaza, although many people say Israel does not want it as part of their territory, it is a well-known fact that it indeed is (wanted by Israel). One has only to look at the first couple of Zionist congresses to find out that is the case. And some proposals from the US and Israel point in that direction. Israel made a proposal (which the US agreed with) to move most of Gaza's population into the Sinai peninsula in Egypt Click here.

This is the type of shit that is happening but "somehow" is never shown by the American media. Hence some of the opinions we have here.

I mean, Israel's record with the UN is so bad that it needs the US to survive. Without the American veto power the state of Israel would lose international recognition in a hearbeat.

tonymctones

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2009, 04:34:25 PM »
No, it should not. Now, wouldn't you say that occupying that territory is not going to help matters? Hamas, as "evil" as they are portrayed to be, is open to talks with Israel with the only prerequisite that the negotiations have to be brokered by the UN or some international entity. Israel, on the other hand, shows up with so many prerequisites it is almost imposible to get ahead in anything.

In regards to Gaza, although many people say Israel does not want it as part of their territory, it is a well-known fact that it indeed is (wanted by Israel). One has only to look at the first couple of Zionist congresses to find out that is the case. And some proposals from the US and Israel point in that direction. Israel made a proposal (which the US agreed with) to move most of Gaza's population into the Sinai peninsula in Egypt Click here.

This is the type of shit that is happening but "somehow" is never shown by the American media. Hence some of the opinions we have here.

I mean, Israel's record with the UN is so bad that it needs the US to survive. Without the American veto power the state of Israel would lose international recognition in a hearbeat.
did hamas not run on platform with a stance that included the end of zionist entity?
You can say what israel did but fact of the matter is that palestin is just as guilty isnt it?

Slapper

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2009, 04:41:16 PM »
did hamas not run on platform with a stance that included the end of zionist entity?
You can say what israel did but fact of the matter is that palestin is just as guilty isnt it?

Zionist yes, Jewish no. There is a BIG difference.

And what is it that Palestinians are guilty of?


Fury

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2009, 04:41:30 PM »
did hamas not run on platform with a stance that included the end of zionist entity?
You can say what israel did but fact of the matter is that palestin is just as guilty isnt it?

They're just as guilty, but good luck getting these ultra far-left nutjobs to admit it. These are the same people who justify terrorism, which Slapper has done on more than one occasion.

Slapper

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2009, 04:47:43 PM »
They're just as guilty, but good luck getting these ultra far-left nutjobs to admit it. These are the same people who justify terrorism, which Slapper has done on more than one occasion.

There you go with the demagogy. Your opinions never cease to amaze me (not positively mind you). Anyone opposing the occupation of the Palestinian territory is a "ultra far-left nutjob". And your inability to apply the same critical standards to the Israeli Terrorist Group (aka Israeli army) is legendary.

It's terrorism when the Palestinians do it, but not when the Israelis do it.

tonymctones

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2009, 04:51:14 PM »
Zionist yes, Jewish no. There is a BIG difference.

And what is it that Palestinians are guilty of?
If israel has a congress that is zionist and hamas pledges to end it whats the difference between that and israel trying to end hamas?

How about firing rockets and targeting israeli civilians?

Fury

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2009, 05:00:10 PM »
There you go with the demagogy. Your opinions never cease to amaze me (not positively mind you). Anyone opposing the occupation of the Palestinian territory is a "ultra far-left nutjob". And your inability to apply the same critical standards to the Israeli Terrorist Group (aka Israeli army) is legendary.

It's terrorism when the Palestinians do it, but not when the Israelis do it.

What's this occupation bullshit? They lost two wars. As far as I'm concerned, that's their land. You most likely live on what used to be Native American land. You're nothing more than a hypocrite for demanding Israel to give that land back while thinking that you should be able to stay on your land. Regardless, Israel isn't going anywhere so Hamas and the Palestinians better think of a better way to make some progress because the rest of the world (including the Muslims) is tired of the bullshit going on there.

You keep defending Hamas when the rest of the Muslim world hasn't even run to their side. You are as far left as you can get, and are constantly trying to save face for these terrorists and others.


Slapper

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2009, 05:14:58 PM »
What's this occupation bullshit? They lost two wars. As far as I'm concerned, that's their land. You most likely live on what used to be Native American land. You're nothing more than a hypocrite for demanding Israel to give that land back while thinking that you should be able to stay on your land. Regardless, Israel isn't going anywhere so Hamas and the Palestinians better think of a better way to make some progress because the rest of the world (including the Muslims) is tired of the bullshit going on there.

You keep defending Hamas when the rest of the Muslim world hasn't even run to their side. You are as far left as you can get, and are constantly trying to save face for these terrorists and others.

"Some people you just can't reach[...]". Cool hand Luke.




Fury

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Re: Hard Lesson for Israel
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2009, 05:20:47 PM »
"Some people you just can't reach[...]". Cool hand Luke.





LOL. I'll give you a pass on that only because that's one of my favorite movies.  :D