Author Topic: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?  (Read 11806 times)

True Scientist

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I have the following hypothesis:

A trained martial artist has no advantage over any other athlete in a barehanded street fight, provided the two have identical strength and weight. The third factor is speed, its limit is genetically determined and, speaking from experience, can be quickly reached by systematic athletic training to the highest level of ones athletic potential. Hence, to make this hypothesis more precise, we should assume that the martial artist and the other athlete are identical twins trained to the highest level of their athletic potential. The overall athletic potential is genetically determined and hence would be identical for identical twins.

Martial arts techniques, by and large, are too weak because they use isolated muscle groups (e.g. straight punch in karate), too slow because they involve accelerating a large mass through a large distance with muscles to weak for that purpose (e.g. round house kick), it is too easy to see them coming because the starting position is many moves away from the final position when the actual strike occurs, just plain useless in a street fight (e.g. ground fighting and submission techniques of UFC -- it is much easier and more effective to kick or stomp a downed opponent), or way too restrictive (e.g. in addition to the last example, striking the back of the head, neck, back, or kidneys is not allowed in any martial arts competitions). Also, a trained martial artist, in virtue of his training, will tend to stick to the techniques he constantly practices, and will show little flexibility/inventiveness in a street fight, compared to a non martial artist. This is an example of simple psychological conditioning.
 
The corollary of the above hypothesis, provided the hypothesis is correct, would be that in order to increase ones chances in a street fight, one should focus on developing ones strength and weight. Ones top speed will quickly come along from training. This can also be illustrated by the example of two identical twins. Suppose one took up martial arts and the other bodybuilding/strength training. Both systematically trained to the limit of their athletic potential for several years. It would seem that the one that took up bodybuilding would end up with superior strength and weight and the same if not superior speed (speed may be dependent on the power of muscular contractions) and hence would easily defeat his twin in a barehanded street fight. 

garebear

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2009, 06:04:34 PM »
Napoleon Dynamite: Stay home and eat all the freakin' chips, Kip.
Kip: Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
Napoleon Dynamite: Since when, Kip? You have the worst reflexes of all time.
Kip: Try and hit me, Napoleon.
Napoleon Dynamite: What?
Kip: I said come down here and see what happens if you try and hit me.
G

garebear

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 06:13:16 PM »
Rex: I'm Rex, founder of the Rex Kwan Do self-defense system! After one week with me in my dojo, you'll be prepared to defend yourself with the STRENGTH of a grizzly, the reflexes of a PUMA, and the wisdom of a man.
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bigbalddaddy

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 09:43:00 PM »
You can train in any thing you want!!!

 BUUUUUUUUUT!

If you have no balls!

If you have no courage!

If you have no heart!

And if you don't have what I call "the eye of the tiger"

Then I don't give a rats ass what training you have!  Will power always prevails!!!! And yes, size matters!

I've been to way too many mickey mouse dojo's and karate schools and the sensi says yeah, go ahead, hurt my guy here (he's a black belt...whoooooohooo) and then he gets knocked the f*ck out by just a plain jaine street brawler with no real training...sad!  I would want my money back!

Alex23

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2009, 12:38:00 AM »
hahah nice one garebare... I happen to know who the "Tru zcience gimmick" and quite the piece of work he is..

a tool. plain and simple a tool.

americanbulldog

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2009, 01:22:47 AM »
I have the following hypothesis:

A trained martial artist has no advantage over any other athlete in a barehanded street fight, provided the two have identical strength and weight. The third factor is speed, its limit is genetically determined and, speaking from experience, can be quickly reached by systematic athletic training to the highest level of ones athletic potential. Hence, to make this hypothesis more precise, we should assume that the martial artist and the other athlete are identical twins trained to the highest level of their athletic potential. The overall athletic potential is genetically determined and hence would be identical for identical twins.

Martial arts techniques, by and large, are too weak because they use isolated muscle groups (e.g. straight punch in karate), too slow because they involve accelerating a large mass through a large distance with muscles to weak for that purpose (e.g. round house kick), it is too easy to see them coming because the starting position is many moves away from the final position when the actual strike occurs, just plain useless in a street fight (e.g. ground fighting and submission techniques of UFC -- it is much easier and more effective to kick or stomp a downed opponent), or way too restrictive (e.g. in addition to the last example, striking the back of the head, neck, back, or kidneys is not allowed in any martial arts competitions). Also, a trained martial artist, in virtue of his training, will tend to stick to the techniques he constantly practices, and will show little flexibility/inventiveness in a street fight, compared to a non martial artist. This is an example of simple psychological conditioning.
 
The corollary of the above hypothesis, provided the hypothesis is correct, would be that in order to increase ones chances in a street fight, one should focus on developing ones strength and weight. Ones top speed will quickly come along from training. This can also be illustrated by the example of two identical twins. Suppose one took up martial arts and the other bodybuilding/strength training. Both systematically trained to the limit of their athletic potential for several years. It would seem that the one that took up bodybuilding would end up with superior strength and weight and the same if not superior speed (speed may be dependent on the power of muscular contractions) and hence would easily defeat his twin in a barehanded street fight. 

Some merit, some assumptions.

I agree that physical attributes make A HUGE DIFFERENCE in fighting, whether they be for sport or for self defense.

Most Mixed Martial Artists are also interested in improving perfomance, and will train strength and conditioning seperate from technique and sparring.  Having experience in sparring will give the martial artist better line familiarizaiton, timing, distance and rythm.  The ability to whether physical punishment is something that sparring will build, whereas the non martial artist who doesn't spar theoretically doesn't know wha is the limit of their tolerance.

Most mixed martial artists will train in arts in a live environment (judo, wrestling, sambo, BJJ, muay thai, boxing, kickboxing) and are accustomed to sparring at near maximal efforts.  Like the guy who trains for hypertrophy, when he attempts to do max singles, he is neither prepared or "coordinated" to produce maximum effort and muscle recruitment.  So NO, a non trained individual doesn't have a better chance although some of your hypothesis do bear merit. 

Captain Equipoise

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2009, 05:17:08 AM »
I will say this... traditional martial arts do not help in a street fight (karate, tae kwon do, kung fu, etc.) they are too restrictive and for the most part are trained to fight someone else in that same style (ie. tournament fighting) they might also instill a false sense of courage/confidence in the martial artist, karate for example is too locked in to kata's and stance's you are taught to fight one way, but what if someone attacks you in another/unorthodox way, you will fall out of place/routine and get lost and not know what to do next.

UGMT

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2009, 08:37:12 AM »
Here we go again...

Migs

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2009, 09:47:01 AM »
yes.  enough said

johnny1

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2009, 01:42:50 AM »
At the end of the day as bigboldaddy has said if you got no courage, heart etc...your Fu.ked b4 you start, like most things it depends on the individual, if you have the courage, mentality, heart, and DISCIPLINE yes you will have a advantage in a street fight against Joe blow. however if you lack the first 3 of the above then its anyones game no matter what your belt is in Martial arts.

americanbulldog

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2009, 11:42:38 AM »
I will say this... traditional martial arts do not help in a street fight (karate, tae kwon do, kung fu, etc.) they are too restrictive and for the most part are trained to fight someone else in that same style (ie. tournament fighting) they might also instill a false sense of courage/confidence in the martial artist, karate for example is too locked in to kata's and stance's you are taught to fight one way, but what if someone attacks you in another/unorthodox way, you will fall out of place/routine and get lost and not know what to do next.

Please note, I did not include martial arts that do not practice hard sparring in an alive setting.  A lot of TMAs are glorified babysitters. 

Pecs

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2009, 01:43:33 AM »
at the end of the day, if all things put equal, the person trained in a martial art will have an upper hand. i am talking about same level of guts, strength, weight etc..

Captain Equipoise

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2009, 01:56:12 AM »
at the end of the day, if all things put equal, the person trained in a martial art will have an upper hand. i am talking about same level of guts, strength, weight etc..

Ok, but a blue belt in Karate or TKD taking on street fighter/thug with some experience in dirty boxing and street fighting is going to get mauled and taken apart. That was my only point. Now I wouldn't say the same for someone doing Muay Thai for at least 6 months, because MT is more practical and has a very short learning curve. (in my opinion)

americanbulldog

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2009, 01:02:04 PM »
Ok, but a blue belt in Karate or TKD taking on street fighter/thug with some experience in dirty boxing and street fighting is going to get mauled and taken apart. That was my only point. Now I wouldn't say the same for someone doing Muay Thai for at least 6 months, because MT is more practical and has a very short learning curve. (in my opinion)


Certain arts practiced in an alive setting (Boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, Kyoshukin, wrestling (freestyle and greco), judo, sambo and BJJ) will add attributes, skill and technique that will aid in fighting.  Most TMA's don't spar in an alive setting. 

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2009, 01:11:22 PM »
Self defense and fighting are two very different things.  99.99% of practitioners be them dojo rats or MMA superstars have never been in a real life or death situation where someone wants to kill you.  Most martial arts don't even teach you how to defend yourself against weapons.  Knives, clubs, guns etc.  In a fight a good boxer is as effective or moreso than the best BJJ or Karate guy.  Speed and quickness is much more important overall than size and strength.  In a life or death situation i.e. someone mugging you for the cash in your pocket, the will to survive probably means more than anything else.  Combine the will to survive with some basic tenets of self defense and you have someone that will neutralize someone trying to do harm to them.  If you want art buy a brush! 

True Scientist

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2009, 08:49:39 PM »
Thanks for participating guys! However, non of you except Captain Equipoise seriously considered the second paragraph of my original post, the one on martial arts techniques. I look forward to your responses to that paragraph!

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2009, 09:19:01 PM »
Thanks for participating guys! However, non of you except Captain Equipoise seriously considered the second paragraph of my original post, the one on martial arts techniques. I look forward to your responses to that paragraph!

You need to go back and study basic physics.  Your entire premise rests on strength and weight.  Pudzianowski in your opinion could beat someones ass half his size due to his size and strength? He could have his ass handed to him by someone half his size with 100x the speed and skill.  Same with any top bodybuilder.  I witnessed a fight one time in East St. Louis.  This red neck tweeker meth addict white boy beat the snot out of these 3 big black guys.  Sure they got theirs in (everyone went home bloodied and bruised with a few broken bones) but in the end this guy weighed a buck fifty and he jumped on these guys, bit them, scratched them..whatever you could humanly do he did..basically went apeshit on them.  All they could do was try to throw him and and throw punches.  It was hilarious and truly showed that the will to survive or in his case go nuts means more than anything. 

Thin Lizzy

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2009, 08:41:02 AM »
Thanks for participating guys! However, non of you except Captain Equipoise seriously considered the second paragraph of my original post, the one on martial arts techniques. I look forward to your responses to that paragraph!

You seem to dismiss submission techniques as being useless. A standing rear naked can be very effective in a street fight as it will nullify even the toughest, craziest mofo.

That said, having worked security in NYC nightclubs, from what I've seen, the most important factor in who wins a fight is who gets the first shot in. That's why boxers tend to do well in street fights as they are trained to keep their guards up and can throw efficient punches.

Nicrah

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2009, 08:57:53 AM »
I've been doing traditional martial arts for years before i ever started competeing in MMA. I got into plenty of street fights, and I never lost. Most of my life all i knew was Jujitsu (japanese style not brazilian) and Karate...I seemed to do great, only ever got a bloody lip once and a chipped tooth out of about a dozen fights, including a couple against 2-3 guys.

americanbulldog

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2009, 09:56:46 AM »
You seem to dismiss submission techniques as being useless. A standing rear naked can be very effective in a street fight as it will nullify even the toughest, craziest mofo.

That said, having worked security in NYC nightclubs, from what I've seen, the most important factor in who wins a fight is who gets the first shot in. That's why boxers tend to do well in street fights as they are trained to keep their guards up and can throw efficient punches.

Mata Leao is a great fight equalizer.  "Can't breathe can't fight."  (My son loves the karate kid franchise)  Meth tweeker or not. 

K-1

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2009, 11:30:24 AM »
I have the following hypothesis:

A trained martial artist has no advantage over any other athlete in a barehanded street fight, provided the two have identical strength and weight. The third factor is speed, its limit is genetically determined and, speaking from experience, can be quickly reached by systematic athletic training to the highest level of ones athletic potential. Hence, to make this hypothesis more precise, we should assume that the martial artist and the other athlete are identical twins trained to the highest level of their athletic potential. The overall athletic potential is genetically determined and hence would be identical for identical twins.

Martial arts techniques, by and large, are too weak because they use isolated muscle groups (e.g. straight punch in karate), too slow because they involve accelerating a large mass through a large distance with muscles to weak for that purpose (e.g. round house kick), it is too easy to see them coming because the starting position is many moves away from the final position when the actual strike occurs, just plain useless in a street fight (e.g. ground fighting and submission techniques of UFC -- it is much easier and more effective to kick or stomp a downed opponent), or way too restrictive (e.g. in addition to the last example, striking the back of the head, neck, back, or kidneys is not allowed in any martial arts competitions). Also, a trained martial artist, in virtue of his training, will tend to stick to the techniques he constantly practices, and will show little flexibility/inventiveness in a street fight, compared to a non martial artist. This is an example of simple psychological conditioning.
 
The corollary of the above hypothesis, provided the hypothesis is correct, would be that in order to increase ones chances in a street fight, one should focus on developing ones strength and weight. Ones top speed will quickly come along from training. This can also be illustrated by the example of two identical twins. Suppose one took up martial arts and the other bodybuilding/strength training. Both systematically trained to the limit of their athletic potential for several years. It would seem that the one that took up bodybuilding would end up with superior strength and weight and the same if not superior speed (speed may be dependent on the power of muscular contractions) and hence would easily defeat his twin in a barehanded street fight. 



depends on the type of "street fight" you are engaged in.  One on one against someone that is alittle apprehensive about fighting I can see some benefit to knowing an art form of some sort that could increase the odds.

A situation against an extremely aggressive individual 1-1, I can see knowing an art form still coming in handy......BUT that depends on the intensity and confidence of the "artist"...basically if he is a coward by nature (yes they exist) knowing an art might not help them.....they will kowtow to pressure whereas the natural aggressor that happens to know an art will not only use that art form but any means necessary to get the job done....basically they will "go out on their shield"


NOW this brings me to the most popular version of street fights....the more popular......uncontrolle d surroundings situation. 1 vs 4....when it started 1-1...weapons and tools used.....this could present a problem to even the aggressive martial artist.

The environment is out of control. There is no organization and to top it off the opponents are/could be at random from multiple areas. Arts won't work here.


JOCKTHEGLIDE

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2009, 06:37:26 AM »
bruce lee once said, "in a perfect fight you have no one style technique for one when you constrained to one technique you will lose with jeet kute doo there is no one systel of fighting, but all styles of fighting from street, UFC, MMA, etc...."

Captain Equipoise

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2009, 05:31:48 PM »
bruce lee once said, "in a perfect fight you have no one style technique for one when you constrained to one technique you will lose with jeet kute doo there is no one systel of fighting, but all styles of fighting from street, UFC, MMA, etc...."

Wow..I didn't realize the UFC was around in the 60's and 70's, when Lee was alive ;)

gracie bjj

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2009, 02:09:29 AM »
You seem to dismiss submission techniques as being useless. A standing rear naked can be very effective in a street fight as it will nullify even the toughest, craziest mofo.

That said, having worked security in NYC nightclubs, from what I've seen, the most important factor in who wins a fight is who gets the first shot in. That's why boxers tend to do well in street fights as they are trained to keep their guards up and can throw efficient punches.

thin lizzy,since your a renzo guy i know you know the crew that works security in nyc,big rob constance,carlos cline,big bryan vytell,matt soares,i worked in central in queens for awhile with big bryan,matt soares and mike.have you ever worked in central on steinway st in queens before in your jobs?i remember working one night with rolles gracie jr,i rolled with him at renzo,s acouple times and he toyed with me like i was a 2 year old child,lol.i liked working with fish when i was there,hes a great teacher imo.also john danaher is beyond awesome,i used to learn from john in the morning classes when he taught.i know alot of people never heard of this guy daneher but hes a true master of the arts,hes a renzo blackbelt as well as a nasty thia fighter
R

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2009, 02:13:14 AM »
thin lizzy,since your a renzo guy i know you know the crew that works security in nyc,big rob constance,carlos cline,big bryan vytell,matt soares,i worked in central in queens for awhile with big bryan,matt soares and mike.have you ever worked in central on steinway st in queens before in your jobs?i remember working one night with rolles gracie jr,i rolled with him at renzo,s acouple times and he toyed with me like i was a 2 year old child,lol.i liked working with fish when i was there,hes a great teacher imo.also john danaher is beyond awesome,i used to learn from john in the morning classes when he taught.i know alot of people never heard of this guy daneher but hes a true master of the arts,hes a renzo blackbelt as well as a nasty thia fighter

Ask those guys about John Petrone.  They'll know him.