Author Topic: Best anti-e to run with tren ?  (Read 2801 times)

Has Beens

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Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« on: January 19, 2009, 09:42:00 PM »
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LurkerNoMore

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 09:49:04 PM »
dostinex

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2009, 11:20:34 PM »
dostinex

That's not an anti-e.  I'd run Aromasin if I was going to run an Anti E with it.  I would have some Dostinex on hand though just in case your dick gets shut down.  .5mg 2x a week is probably fine.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 04:25:34 AM »
Depends on whether you are considering AR or PR related conversion.

Van_Bilderass

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 08:58:38 AM »
PR related conversion.

What do you mean by this? Prolactin, progesterone? Tren gets converted to it? And what is AR here? Androgen receptor?

Fatpanda

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 09:14:47 AM »
Anastrozole, Exemestane or Letrozole will work well -  nolva and clomid won't.



Aromatase inhibitors: cellular and molecular effects.

Miller WR, Anderson TJ, White S, Larionov A, Murray J, Evans D, Krause A, Dixon JM.

Breast Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK. w.r.miller@ed.ac.uk

Marked cellular and molecular changes may occur in breast cancers following treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer patients with aromatase inhibitors. Neoadjuvant protocols, in which treatment is given with the primary tumour still within the breast, are particularly illuminating. In Edinburgh, we have shown that 3 months treatment with either anastrozole, exemestane or letrozole produces pathological responses in the majority of oestrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumours (39/59) as manifested by reduced cellularity/increased fibrosis. Changes in histological grading may also take place, most notably a reduction in mitotic figures. This probably reflects an influence on proliferation as most tumours (82%) show a marked decrease in the proliferation marker, Ki67. These effects are generally more dramatic than seen with tamoxifen given in the same setting. Differences between aromatase inhibitors and tamoxifen are also apparent in changes in steroid hormone expression. Thus, immuno-staining for progesterone receptor (PgR) is reduced in almost all cases by aromatase inhibitors, becoming undetectable in many. This contrasts with effects of tamoxifen in which the most common change on PgR is to increase expression. Changes in proliferation occur rapidly following the onset of exposure to aromatase inhibitors. Thus, neoadjuvant studies with letrozole in which tumour was sampled before and after 14 days and 3 months treatment show that decreased expression of Ki67 occur at 14 days and, in many cases, the effect is greater at 14 days than 3 months. These early changes precede evidence of clinical response but do not predict for it. However, this study design has allowed RNA analysis of sequential biopsies taken during the neoadjuvant therapy. Based on clustering techniques, it has been possible to subdivide tumours into groups showing distinct patterns of molecular changes. These changes in tumour gene expression may allow definition of tumour cohorts with differing sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors and permit early recognition of response and resistance.

PMID: 16002280 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Also oxymetholone may also work to combat the potential gyno - if that is your main concern ( and perhaps winny) :

Inhibition of progestational activity for fertility regulation.

Chatterton RT.

PIP: This review examines a number of areas of postconceptive fertility regulation, focusing on promising new antiprogestational agents. Pregnancy is dependent upon the availability of progesterone for the uterus and its withdrawal results in the breakdown of the secretory endometrium. Its availability can be interferred with at several levels and the new methods which allow for progesterone inhibition must be tested for possible defeminizing properties or for serious side effects. In the evaluation of contragestational agents, several areas must be taken into consideration--assessment of biological activities, dose requirements and mode of action, duration of effects, route of administration, and drug tolerance and side effects. The failure to maintain progesterone in the blood at levels required for pregnancy maintenance may be due to a decrease in progesterone secretion by the ovary or to an increased rate of metabolism and excretion of circulating progesterone. The various substances discussed do either 1 or the other; however even when a compound is known to result in a decrease in the rate of progesterone secretion, the process by which it does this may not be known. Prostaglandins seem to affect myometrial contraction, luteinizing hormone releasing hormones can inhibit steroid production or interfere with LH binding to its receptor, and immunization against hCG is a successful immunological approach to conception. Lithospermic acid is another substance which interferes with gonadotropin support of the ovary and has good potential. Other compounds that interfere with progesterone secretion act to inhibit steroidogenesis in the ovary and placenta; such substances include aminoglutethimide, oxymetholone, trilostane, azastene, and danazol. Another progesterone-suppression method would remove a sufficient amount of progesterone from the body to cause endometrium involution and promote contractility of the myometrium. Progesterone antagonists include ORF 9361, R3434, Anordrin, ORF 3858, and other estrogens, triazole compounds, ORF 5513, trichosanthin, and zoapatanol.
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Van_Bilderass

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 10:34:30 AM »
Anastrozole, Exemestane or Letrozole will work well -  nolva and clomid won't.


IMO you can't use these studies to state that matter of factly, for many reasons. For example: study in females, study on breast cancer not gynecomastia, study not on athletes on other steroids, and etc. Also there is the assumption that tren is singnificantly progestational (or that it increases progesterone and/or prolactin as we have read on these forums so many times).

You do insert the *may* in the oxymetholone example. It states "compounds that interfere with progesterone secretion act to inhibit steroidogenesis in the ovary and placenta". Well, you see the problem here.  :) And again, is progesterone a problem?

Fatpanda

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2009, 11:26:46 AM »
IMO you can't use these studies to state that matter of factly, for many reasons. For example: study in females, study on breast cancer not gynecomastia, study not on athletes on other steroids, and etc. Also there is the assumption that tren is singnificantly progestational (or that it increases progesterone and/or prolactin as we have read on these forums so many times).

You do insert the *may* in the oxymetholone example. It states "compounds that interfere with progesterone secretion act to inhibit steroidogenesis in the ovary and placenta". Well, you see the problem here.  :) And again, is progesterone a problem?

i believe you can use the first study - perhaps not the 2nd ( the reason i used 'may' - i was thinking dht/winny/receptors/etc)

however i see where you are coming from - you believe prolactin and not progesterone or estrogen may be the reason for tren gyno, however this has not been proved, and there are many examples of bodybuilders developing gyno from tren while taking a prolactin inhibitor like bromo and nolva ( which has also been shown to inhibit prolactin somewhat too).

also there are countles reports of bodybuilders developing gyno after their tren cycle during pct when they use nolva.

so perhaps a combo of letro + bromo would be better than either alone then  :P
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Van_Bilderass

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2009, 12:03:54 PM »

however i see where you are coming from - you believe prolactin and not progesterone or estrogen may be the reason for tren gyno, however this has not been proved, and there are many examples of bodybuilders developing gyno from tren while taking a prolactin inhibitor like bromo and nolva ( which has also been shown to inhibit prolactin somewhat too).

No, I'm not sold on either the progesterone or the prolactin angle. Neither assumptions are really proven when it comes to being agonized (progesterone receptor) by or increased (prolactin) by trenbolone. We do know that Estrogen and IGF-1 are central to gyno development. Which is why, with fairly strong evidence, SERMs like Nolva should help combat all of these supposedly different types of gyno. Now, these dopamine agonists may also help combat gyno or some symptoms of it but the "bro I got progesterone gyno" is just bro-logic.

As far as the Winny blocking progesterone receptor theory that used to be popular, I seem to remember that Winny looked more like a PR agonist rather than inhibitor.

So it's all basically very experimental IMO, and if things seem to "work" it may not be due to the assumed reasons.

Fatpanda

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2009, 12:19:39 PM »
No, I'm not sold on either the progesterone or the prolactin angle. Neither assumptions are really proven when it comes to being agonized (progesterone receptor) by or increased (prolactin) by trenbolone. We do know that Estrogen and IGF-1 are central to gyno development. Which is why, with fairly strong evidence, SERMs like Nolva should help combat all of these supposedly different types of gyno. Now, these dopamine agonists may also help combat gyno or some symptoms of it but the "bro I got progesterone gyno" is just bro-logic.

As far as the Winny blocking progesterone receptor theory that used to be popular, I seem to remember that Winny looked more like a PR agonist rather than inhibitor.

So it's all basically very experimental IMO, and if things seem to "work" it may not be due to the assumed reasons.

i agree further study is required.  :D

however letro blocks 2 out of the 3 main culprits i.e. estrogen and progesterone and may or may not also reduce igf-1 ( depending on the study). so if i were to use one until further evidence emerges it would be letro  :)
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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 09:10:31 PM »
So what is the concensus ? Letro or Aromasin ?

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4thAD

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2009, 09:09:40 AM »
So what is the concensus ? Letro or Aromasin ?

Thanks

Either or for an anti E. Cabergoline if those don't work.

Stavios

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2009, 09:19:56 AM »
i agree further study is required.  :D

however letro blocks 2 out of the 3 main culprits i.e. estrogen and progesterone and may or may not also reduce igf-1 ( depending on the study). so if i were to use one until further evidence emerges it would be letro  :)

I absolutely love letro

that shit rocks

tbombz

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2009, 07:53:50 PM »
Thanks
if your running tren alone - no need for an anti-aromatase or a selective estrogen receptor modulator.......tren doesnt go to estrogen..

Has Beens

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2009, 09:36:15 PM »
if your running tren alone - no need for an anti-aromatase or a selective estrogen receptor modulator.......tren doesnt go to estrogen..

It won`t be used alone, just part of my contest cycle. D-bol and tren are the only compounds that I have gyno issues with. Not bad problems, but enough to bother me.

tbombz

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 06:48:57 AM »
It won`t be used alone, just part of my contest cycle. D-bol and tren are the only compounds that I have gyno issues with. Not bad problems, but enough to bother me.
dbol is the only one that gets me...  i gotta run a mg eod of adex even on only 40mg dbol...


i dont compete , yet, but i think pre contest best thing would be something like this

start of prep - 6 weeks out = nothing for estrogen + AAS + peptides (gh/ slin on high carb days) + fat burning (eca and or clen) + thyroid (t3 )

5 weeks out - show day = letrozole + AAS (maybe switch t orals only if you have problems with injection lumps) + peptides (gh , but no slin) + fat burning (eca or clen) + thyroid (t3)


and then do whatever you have found to work best for the final week whe it comes to carbs water sodium, etc.



but thats just me theorizing based on what ive tried, and what seems to work and soem basic ideas

busyB

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Re: Best anti-e to run with tren ?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 10:54:23 AM »
It won`t be used alone, just part of my contest cycle. D-bol and tren are the only compounds that I have gyno issues with. Not bad problems, but enough to bother me.

For my last show....

Ran Tren the last 8 weeks with Winny (orals) and Sust.
Stopped the Sust 10 days out
7 days before the show pinned Tren ED (stayed on winny all the way to show also)

Used Letro at a small dose thru the cycle (20 weeks total and letro used about 2 x wk) but last week before show used it every day all the way to the show. IF the gyno is pretty visable, use the letro at a higher dose for a couple weeks and should subside.

Last thing you want is to be that guy on stage with man boobs  :'(

All the other suggestions for an anti E are good also but this worked well for me.  8)