Author Topic: Capitalism works.  (Read 3939 times)

Tesla

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Re: Capitalism works.
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2009, 10:01:06 AM »

Yes, I'd say it works... For 1% of the population. Capitalism does not work for the remaining 99% though.

You've got a point.

People with certain assumptions about how income and wealth "should be" distributed like to show these charts and act like they are undeniable proof that something is inherently wrong with capitalism.  People at the top tend to work more, have better educations, and have more ambition so I'd say they should have a disproportionate share of wealth.  What's a "fair" amount for the top 1% to have?  I don't know and I don't think it's any of my business to even try to decide. 

So for the arbitrary time interval of 2000 to 2006 the wealthiest people increased incomes at a faster rate than the rest of the population.  If it makes you feel any better the same people who had big gains in the artificially selected window of 2000-2006 endured massive losses in 2008 and will continue to do so in 2009.  But I fail to see how their loss is my gain. 


Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Capitalism works.
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2009, 10:35:47 AM »
People with certain assumptions about how income and wealth "should be" distributed like to show these charts and act like they are undeniable proof that something is inherently wrong with capitalism.  People at the top tend to work more, have better educations, and have more ambition so I'd say they should have a disproportionate share of wealth.  What's a "fair" amount for the top 1% to have?  I don't know and I don't think it's any of my business to even try to decide. 

So for the arbitrary time interval of 2000 to 2006 the wealthiest people increased incomes at a faster rate than the rest of the population.  If it makes you feel any better the same people who had big gains in the artificially selected window of 2000-2006 endured massive losses in 2008 and will continue to do so in 2009.  But I fail to see how their loss is my gain. 



Well said.

Slapper

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Re: Capitalism works.
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2009, 10:52:50 AM »
People with certain assumptions about how income and wealth "should be" distributed like to show these charts and act like they are undeniable proof that something is inherently wrong with capitalism.

I don't "act" anything, the graphs show a serious fault in capitalism (at least the version we like to use here in the states).

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People at the top tend to work more, have better educations, and have more ambition[...]

Please stick to reality and not personal observations. Working "more", "better" education or "more" ambition are relative/vague terms that I would never use as proof of anything, especially in making a point as to why it is OK to have 1% of the population keep 90% of the resources.

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[...]so I'd say they should have a disproportionate share of wealth.  What's a "fair" amount for the top 1% to have?  I don't know and I don't think it's any of my business to even try to decide.

First and foremost, wealth and "fair" are a borderline oxymoron. Moreover, there is a difference between wealth (which is a very relative term) and sheer accumulation of unneeded resources. You are all over the board on both terms and make vague distinction. I repeat: There is NOTHING fair about 1% of any population getting to keep 90% of the resources in the country (be it currency, gold or bitches).

Secondly, and this is from a purely economics 101 point of view, in any economy you have to produce something of value. Selling shares of stock XYZ or defending a person in court has very little REAL tacit value. Building roads, houses, hospitals or making bread has lots of economic value. The problem comes from the fact that compensation for this value in our country is irrationally skewed toward jobs/enterprises that create very little value. There is NO WAY IN HELL 1% of the population create 99% of the value in any country in any period of history, so that is capitalism's main problem: Rewarding a minority, income-wise, and ignoring the majority.

Eventually this economic system, AS WITH ALL OTHERS, fails, because corruption seeps in and more economic distorsions percolate every facet of our society. It happened in Rome, with the British empire, etc. Just setting up a system that looks "fair" from the beginning (meaning everyone's given equal chance from the getgo) doesn't mean the system is "fair," it just means everyone was given equal stake when first introduced, that's all.
 
The second biggest problem with our version of capitalism is that it requires continuous profit as the fuel of the enonomy. No profit, no economy. And we're seeing the effects of this today.

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So for the arbitrary time interval of 2000 to 2006 the wealthiest people increased incomes at a faster rate than the rest of the population.

No, that's not true. In fact, the "arbitrary" intervals you're referring to best describe the other side of the equation, meaning the times in history in which the majority's increase of their income took place at a higher rate that those in the top minority. I just posted that particular year range because I though it was eloquent enough to get the point accross.

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If it makes you feel any better the same people who had big gains in the artificially selected window of 2000-2006 endured massive losses in 2008 and will continue to do so in 2009.  But I fail to see how their loss is my gain.

Like I said, look at the income inequality graphs from when they were first produced and YOU TELL ME it is not ALWAYS (apart from brief moments in history) skewed toward the very rich.

And how you could just equate some rich guy losing 5 million bucks to someone having to live out on the street because they LOST 50,000 dollars speaks volume about the irrationality with which you view economic activity.

freespirit

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Re: Capitalism works.
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2009, 11:08:07 AM »
According to the web bot predictions, which have made very accurate predictions in the past, the U.S.A. will officially be declared: Bankrupt! Go capitalism.   :)

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Capitalism works.
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2009, 11:42:11 AM »
I don't "act" anything, the graphs show a serious fault in capitalism (at least the version we like to use here in the states).

Please stick to reality and not personal observations. Working "more", "better" education or "more" ambition are relative/vague terms that I would never use as proof of anything, especially in making a point as to why it is OK to have 1% of the population keep 90% of the resources.

First and foremost, wealth and "fair" are a borderline oxymoron. Moreover, there is a difference between wealth (which is a very relative term) and sheer accumulation of unneeded resources. You are all over the board on both terms and make vague distinction. I repeat: There is NOTHING fair about 1% of any population getting to keep 90% of the resources in the country (be it currency, gold or bitches).

Secondly, and this is from a purely economics 101 point of view, in any economy you have to produce something of value. Selling shares of stock XYZ or defending a person in court has very little REAL tacit value. Building roads, houses, hospitals or making bread has lots of economic value. The problem comes from the fact that compensation for this value in our country is irrationally skewed toward jobs/enterprises that create very little value. There is NO WAY IN HELL 1% of the population create 99% of the value in any country in any period of history, so that is capitalism's main problem: Rewarding a minority, income-wise, and ignoring the majority.

Eventually this economic system, AS WITH ALL OTHERS, fails, because corruption seeps in and more economic distorsions percolate every facet of our society. It happened in Rome, with the British empire, etc. Just setting up a system that looks "fair" from the beginning (meaning everyone's given equal chance from the getgo) doesn't mean the system is "fair," it just means everyone was given equal stake when first introduced, that's all.
 
The second biggest problem with our version of capitalism is that it requires continuous profit as the fuel of the enonomy. No profit, no economy. And we're seeing the effects of this today.

No, that's not true. In fact, the "arbitrary" intervals you're referring to best describe the other side of the equation, meaning the times in history in which the majority's increase of their income took place at a higher rate that those in the top minority. I just posted that particular year range because I though it was eloquent enough to get the point accross.

Like I said, look at the income inequality graphs from when they were first produced and YOU TELL ME it is not ALWAYS (apart from brief moments in history) skewed toward the very rich.

And how you could just equate some rich guy losing 5 million bucks to someone having to live out on the street because they LOST 50,000 dollars speaks volume about the irrationality with which you view economic activity.

What system would you implement so that everyone in America is treated fairly?

Saxon

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Re: Capitalism works.
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2009, 12:03:23 PM »
Well, I've got 10 fingers and am able to count.

Now, this is not about me. Look at the question and answer it. If you can't, click away.

Simple.



History has already shown that capitalism works, any idiot with any intelligence should be able to see that.  Discussing whether it works or not is like discussing whether gravity works, pointless ::)

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Capitalism works.
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2009, 12:08:18 PM »
History has already shown that capitalism works, any idiot with any intelligence should be able to see that.  Discussing whether it works or not is like discussing whether gravity works, pointless ::)

Didn't you know corruption ends when were all scrubbing toilets and planting trees for $5 dollars an hour? Jobs that have VALUE.  ::)

Tesla

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Re: Capitalism works.
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2009, 01:40:10 PM »
Quote
Please stick to reality and not personal observations. Working "more", "better" education or "more" ambition are relative/vague terms that I would never use as proof of anything, especially in making a point as to why it is OK to have 1% of the population keep 90% of the resources.

It's an undeniable fact that people in the bottom income quintile work less and have less education.  This is not a personal observation.  I already posted this, but look at the census data here: http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032005/hhinc/new05_000.htm  The typical family in the bottom 1/5 of incomes does not have anyone working.  And countless studies have shown a strong link between education and income so I don't even know why you would question that. 

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Like I said, look at the income inequality graphs from when they were first produced and YOU TELL ME it is not ALWAYS (apart from brief moments in history) skewed toward the very rich.

Of course income distributions are always skewed towards the very rich- that's why they're VERY RICH.  By definition they have a disproportionate amount of assets. 

Quote
And how you could just equate some rich guy losing 5 million bucks to someone having to live out on the street because they LOST 50,000 dollars speaks volume about the irrationality with which you view economic activity.

You're the guy telling us all how horrible income inequality is.  What I was saying is that this really bad problem in your book is going to decrease due to this recession. 

It's obvious that you have socialist ideals deeply ingrained in your belief system.  Compared to poor people in most of the world I think our poor people have a pretty good deal.  You can't just look at income distribution and conclude that everyone is getting screwed over.

For starters, you still haven't said what the optimal income distribution is in your book and how we should get there.  Whatever we have is "bad" and just needs to change somehow.  You think our system inevitably screws the people with less.  Maybe you should entertain the thought that most of the people at the bottom are their of their own volition. 

Slapper

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Re: Capitalism works.
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2009, 05:17:17 PM »
What system would you implement so that everyone in America is treated fairly?

I don't know!

If I knew I'd probably be doing something about it. I do know the current system we have now is better than most systems out there... for now. It is obvious it is getting to unsustainable levels (1% of the population holding 95% of the resources, continuous wars, etc).

Slapper

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Re: Capitalism works.
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2009, 05:31:31 PM »
It's an undeniable fact that people in the bottom income quintile work less and have less education.  This is not a personal observation.  I already posted this, but look at the census data here: http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032005/hhinc/new05_000.htm  The typical family in the bottom 1/5 of incomes does not have anyone working.  And countless studies have shown a strong link between education and income so I don't even know why you would question that. 

No, I do agree with that. I am questioning your reasoning that the 1% work "more", have "better" education and are more ambitious. I totally disagree with that. They are rich because they know how to manipulate a system to their own advantage. Furthermore the system has been manipulated to the 1%'s common good.   

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Of course income distributions are always skewed towards the very rich- that's why they're VERY RICH.  By definition they have a disproportionate amount of assets.

Precisely! And that is why the system is faulty to begin with, because the very rich eventually end up owning everything.

Quote
You're the guy telling us all how horrible income inequality is.  What I was saying is that this really bad problem in your book is going to decrease due to this recession. 

It's obvious that you have socialist ideals deeply ingrained in your belief system.  Compared to poor people in most of the world I think our poor people have a pretty good deal.  You can't just look at income distribution and conclude that everyone is getting screwed over.

For starters, you still haven't said what the optimal income distribution is in your book and how we should get there.  Whatever we have is "bad" and just needs to change somehow.  You think our system inevitably screws the people with less.  Maybe you should entertain the thought that most of the people at the bottom are their of their own volition.

No, I'm much closer to your line of thought than you think. A huge bureaucracy just scares the shit out of me, be it socialist or capitalistic in nature. But, at the same time, I have no problem recognizing a feudalist system from 600 miles away. And that is what's going to happen to my country.