which is better in turns of results (lean gains)...

[theworm]

300 deca x 10 weeks PLUS test 450 mg x 12 weeks

OR

600 test x 15 weeks.

[CAPTAIN INSANO]

And, here we go   

[theworm]

simple question really....is it even worth the 300 of deca?  or should i just double up on the test?  much cheaper and easier recovery.

[tbombz]

simple question really....is it even worth the 300 of deca?  or should i just double up on the test?  much cheaper and easier recovery.

i think 300 deca + 450 test will not produce the same gains as 900 test... if thats what your asking...


as for those two cycles you listed... the 600 test.. because its longer..   


whats 12 weeks going to do anyway ?  gain 15 lbs of glycogen and water and 5 lbs of muscle... then in a matter of weeks lose the 15 lbs glyco,h2o and keep maybe 1 or 2 lbs of muscle..

[Stacker21]

i was wondering the same thing on the deca, Im thinking about cutting it out

[Swollness]

Isn't the rule of thumb typically 2:1 test and deca.

[Stacker21]

Isn't the rule of thumb typically 2:1 test and deca.

Yea I think so.  If stacking both you should typically run test a fews after stopping the deca, 2 to 1 would be about the same thing

[The ChemistV2]

i think 300 deca + 450 test will not produce the same gains as 900 test... if thats what your asking...


as for those two cycles you listed... the 600 test.. because its longer..   


whats 12 weeks going to do anyway ?  gain 15 lbs of glycogen and water and 5 lbs of muscle... then in a matter of weeks lose the 15 lbs glyco,h2o and keep maybe 1 or 2 lbs of muscle..

So your philosophy is go on for an extended period of time and not worry that when you come off you'll spend countless months in a low testosterone state  suffering through depression, lack of energy and no libido plus accelerated aging from low hormone levels? Or you probably believe one should never come off and to hell with bad cholesterol, chronically elevated liver values, etc.  I wonder one day if you'll still think this was all worth it just so you could look in a mirror and feel "big".

[tbombz]

So your philosophy is go on for an extended period of time and not worry that when you come off you'll spend countless months in a low testosterone state  suffering through depression, lack of energy and no libido plus accelerated aging from low hormone levels? Or you probably believe one should never come off and to hell with bad cholesterol, chronically elevated liver values, etc.  I wonder one day if you'll still think this was all worth it just so you could look in a mirror and feel "big".

i dont have a philosophy... im just saying... 12 weeks you wont gain much and you wont keep it....... personaly, i wouldnt even waste time ad money on a dozen weeks of hormones only to come right off.  what sense does that make? to me, doesnt make any sense. waste of my money and health.   end up being the same bodybuilder afterwards... but i would be a more rich and healty one afterwards if i didnt use the few weeeks of gear.

however, different strokes for different folks.

[The ChemistV2]

i dont have a philosophy... im just saying... 12 weeks you wont gain much and you wont keep it....... personaly, i wouldnt even waste time ad money on a dozen weeks of hormones only to come right off.  what sense does that make? to me, doesnt make any sense. waste of my money and health.   end up being the same bodybuilder afterwards... but i would be a more rich and healty one afterwards if i didnt use the few weeeks of gear.

however, different strokes for different folks.

There are ways to do cycles, gain 10 or 12 pounds over a 12 week period and keep most of it. The trick is to do a low androgen cycle like primobolin with some proviron tabs(to keep a non aromatizing androgen for libido purposes). And yes you can gain that, and it won't be pounds of water and glycogen, assuming you train extremely hard(which most people don't want to do). Neither of these compounds are very suppressive in reasonable doses, and with good PCT and maybe some IGf-1 during recovery, much of the gains good be kept. Keeping gains with long heavy test-deca cycles is virtually impossible.

[tbombz]

There are ways to do cycles, gain 10 or 12 pounds over a 12 week period and keep most of it. The trick is to do a low androgen cycle like primobolin with some proviron tabs(to keep a non aromatizing androgen for libido purposes). And yes you can gain that, and it won't be pounds of water and glycogen, assuming you train extremely hard(which most people don't want to do). Neither of these compounds are very suppressive in reasonable doses, and with good PCT and maybe some IGf-1 during recovery, much of the gains good be kept. Keeping gains with long heavy test-deca cycles is virtually impossible.

  okay...welll..never tried that.... so im taking you at your word...although id love to see some legit stable active igf1....  but he didnt give that option..he just said test or test and deca... i was responding to that...

[Stavios]

There are ways to do cycles, gain 10 or 12 pounds over a 12 week period and keep most of it. The trick is to do a low androgen cycle like primobolin with some proviron tabs(to keep a non aromatizing androgen for libido purposes). And yes you can gain that, and it won't be pounds of water and glycogen, assuming you train extremely hard(which most people don't want to do). Neither of these compounds are very suppressive in reasonable doses, and with good PCT and maybe some IGf-1 during recovery, much of the gains good be kept. Keeping gains with long heavy test-deca cycles is virtually impossible.

nice post

[brent2741]

ive found that no matter the cycle as long as you keep to a good solid diet with plenty of protein and carbs (quality not quantity) and like people have said train very hard, you can keep most gains. It can be hard to stay with a "on cycle" eating and training program after you come off because you just dont want to anymore because your not as strong or as big so you lose a little motivation, but if you can push thru that there are some permenant gains to be had

[Van_Bilderass]

Keeping gains with long heavy test-deca cycles is virtually impossible.

Yeah well it's obviously easier to keep a large percentage of 1lb gained than a large percentage of 20lbs gained 

How you proceed depends on your goals I guess.

[theworm]

There are ways to do cycles, gain 10 or 12 pounds over a 12 week period and keep most of it. The trick is to do a low androgen cycle like primobolin with some proviron tabs(to keep a non aromatizing androgen for libido purposes). And yes you can gain that, and it won't be pounds of water and glycogen, assuming you train extremely hard(which most people don't want to do). Neither of these compounds are very suppressive in reasonable doses, and with good PCT and maybe some IGf-1 during recovery, much of the gains good be kept. Keeping gains with long heavy test-deca cycles is virtually impossible.

thanks Chemist, but lets say someone gets their stuff from a legit anti-aging doc.  he only has test, deca, and very expensive orals (winny, anadrol, and var).  i am quessing the most effective, and cheap cycle, with minimal sides would be test 600 x 15 weeks and through in an AI and propecia....  thoughts? i just don't think the 300 of deca is worth the money, its expensive as hell.

[Stacker21]

thanks Chemist, but lets say someone gets their stuff from a legit anti-aging doc.  he only has test, deca, and very expensive orals (winny, anadrol, and var).  i am quessing the most effective, and cheap cycle, with minimal sides would be test 600 x 15 weeks and through in an AI and propecia....  thoughts? i just don't think the 300 of deca is worth the money, its expensive as hell.

In my opinion the propecia is a money whore, thats just me.  test I dont believe has a huge history of hair loss like Dbol.  All propecia will do is postpone hair loss not stop it.Deca/Test stacks are not uncommon but also not necessary.  Id run just the test if money is the issue.

[Arnold jr]

300 deca x 10 weeks PLUS test 450 mg x 12 weeks

OR

600 test x 15 weeks.

I'd say a person would get more out of the deca/test combo. Sure, more test is great, but people stack things for a reason. The synergy effect of serious AAS makes a difference. And if your stuff is legit human grade as you say it is, it will probably be a good cycle.

That said, like Tbombz brought up, I wouldn't necessarily run that cycle for 12wks...16-20wks would be more like it. However you do it, if it were my cycle, I'd stop the deca 4wks before I stopped the test...it will make your PCT and transition into natural training much, much easier and smoother.

So your philosophy is go on for an extended period of time and not worry that when you come off you'll spend countless months in a low testosterone state  suffering through depression, lack of energy and no libido plus accelerated aging from low hormone levels? Or you probably believe one should never come off and to hell with bad cholesterol, chronically elevated liver values, etc.  I wonder one day if you'll still think this was all worth it just so you could look in a mirror and feel "big".

I've said for a long time that the way most people cycle is not the best way to get things done. Time on = Time off is the safest approach, and there is nothing wrong with doing it that way, but it is not the most efficient way to use your AAS.

As for depression, lack of energy, and no libido, the reason you see this in so many guys is because of the way they come off. So many of them will come off a cycle, stopping everything at once, I've said for a long time you're always better off ending a cycle on just test and dropping it down the last few wks....but beyond that, the PCT plans of many just plain suck. 3-4 wks of nolva, starting at 40mg/ed and ending on 20mg/ed, sure that PCT plan works fine after some cycles, it's probably the most common PCT on the planet, but for long serious cycles, it's probably the worst thing you can do...you might as well not run a PCT. A good PCT after a strong cycle should always be in the 6wk range, it should always include HCG at the begining even if some HCG was used while on cycle...it should consist of clomid for a first choice, if the person can't handle clomid it should consist of nolva at a higher dose for a longer period rather then the fast taper down many do.

Your comment on bad cholesterol, chronically elevated liver values, etc. First off, it's more common for guys to have problems with a lower good cholesterol when on AAS, but as with most things, with a sound diet this can easily be avoided. Liver values, you're right, they will be elevated, there is no denying that, but to the extent you take it is up to you...no one is forcing orals down your throat. Even if you are taking orals, if you do so in a reasonable way, cycle on and off your orals you will be fine. Oral AAS still won't raise your liver values as much as taking Tylenol daily will...plus, the liver is one of the only organs in the body that can completely rejuvenate itself if given the chance...this does mean you have to come off all orals to rejuvenate.

[dustin]

There are ways to do cycles, gain 10 or 12 pounds over a 12 week period and keep most of it. The trick is to do a low androgen cycle like primobolin with some proviron tabs(to keep a non aromatizing androgen for libido purposes). And yes you can gain that, and it won't be pounds of water and glycogen, assuming you train extremely hard(which most people don't want to do). Neither of these compounds are very suppressive in reasonable doses, and with good PCT and maybe some IGf-1 during recovery, much of the gains good be kept. Keeping gains with long heavy test-deca cycles is virtually impossible.

I'm far from an expert but this is the way I look at things as well. You basically either do mild cycles and gain a small, but very appreciable amount of muscle with minimal shut down... OR you hit the androgens heavy, come off infrequently and suffer the sides only to hop back on at full force. Unless one's competing, I really don't think people should whack the sauce so hard.

A little test and tren will go a long way. From now on, that's going to be my bread and butter for the most part. Going to do that again with a little bit of winny for my next cycle should it should be pretty fun. I also prefer to cut all exotic androgens out and just ride things out on test. I can't say I agree with conventional "tapering" per se, but just making sure you're riding things out on enough and not too much. If you're shut down, you're shut down. But at least if you're shut down on nothing but the primary male androgen, it's going to make your recuperation tactics less confusing. I also agree that bridging between cycles with non steroidal anabolics is a good idea. I came off on GH and slin (slin was mainly to offset the GH sides) and recovered reasonably well. No experience using the two on cycle, but I'm still convinced that it was worth while though.

[DIVISION]

300 deca x 10 weeks PLUS test 450 mg x 12 weeks

OR

600 test x 15 weeks.

Do you have any common sense, worm?

It's dependant on several variables and not a simple answer.

Results vary, just like opinions.

How about you run both at different times and come back with your own experience?



DIV