AAS would actually have an inverse u shaped curve of dose versus growth. there would be a dose at which anabolism maxes out and then as doses are increased you would eventually reach toxicity levels which would end up being catabolic
the following study is very interesting for many reasons. not the least of which it suggests that an equivalent of 3.5 g a week of Test propionate is saturating androgen receptors. moreover, if you stack Test prop with winstrol, they competitively displace one another, again suggesting androgen receptor saturation. Finally, there is no more androgen receptor recruitment at 7 g per week than there is at 3.5. Another point to be made here is that stanozolol is actually shown to INHIBIT nuclear androgen receptor accumulation produced by Test prop or nandrolone. this can happen because stanazolol can bind androgen receptors but not result in dimerization and nuclear recrutment. think about it. that says all your doing with really high doses is reducing the effects of your more potent androgens, like testosterone by putting Testosterone in competion with weaker drugs.. 1: Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2006 Mar;83(3):410-9. Epub 2006 Apr 17. Links Stacking anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) during puberty in rats: a neuroendocrine and behavioral assessment. Wesson DW, McGinnis MY.The University of Texas at San Antonio, Department of Biology, 6900 North Loop 1604 West, San Antonio, TX 78249, USA.Anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) abuse is increasing in teenagers. We examined the effects of stacked AAS in adolescent male rats. Stacking, in which multiple AAS are taken simultaneously, is commonly employed by humans. Beginning at puberty gonadally intact male rats received testosterone, nandrolone, or stanozolol. Additional groups received stacked AAS: testosterone + stanozolol, nandrolone + stanozolol, or nandrolone + testosterone. Injections continued during tests for sexual behavior, vocalizations, scent marking, partner preference, aggression and fertility. Body and reproductive tissue weights were taken. Sexual and aggressive behaviors were increased by testosterone yet inhibited by stanozolol; nandrolone had no effect. Stacking testosterone with stanozolol prevented the inhibitory effects of stanozolol. Body weight was decreased by testosterone and all stacked AAS. Cell nuclear androgen receptor binding in brain was significantly increased in nandrolone males and decreased in stanozolol males; testosterone males were slightly higher than controls. Androgen receptors in stacked groups were intermediate between individual AAS suggesting that stanozolol competed with other AAS for androgen receptors despite its low affinity. The results indicate that stacking AAS influences the effects of individual AAS on behavioral and endocrine measures, and levels of androgen receptor occupation are not directly correlated with AAS effects on behavior.PMID: 16603236 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Related ArticlesLong-term effects of pubertal anabolic-androgenic steroid exposure on reproductive and aggressive behaviors in male rats. [Horm Behav. 2004]Effects of pubertal anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS) administration on reproductive and aggressive behaviors in male rats. [Behav Neurosci. 2003]Physical provocation of pubertal anabolic androgenic steroid exposed male rats elicits aggression towards females. [Horm Behav. 2006]ReviewAnabolic androgenic steroids and aggression: studies using animal models. [Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2004]ReviewAdolescents and androgens, receptors and rewards. [Horm Behav. 2008]» See Reviews... | » See All...
this is a great study. phase III randomized double blind placebo control. It shows anadrol works great for adding mass in hiv patients, but 100 mg is just as good as 150 mg ed. Plus, they do liver panels out to 16 weeks. 150 mg is worse on the liver than 100. About 25-28% of people show 5x normal liver enzyme values at 16 weeks. Liver issues start creeping in at 12 weeks. Again, this is another clear indication that more is not better. AIDS. 2003 Mar 28;17(5):699-710. Links Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled phase III trial of oxymetholone for the treatment of HIV wasting. Hengge UR, Stocks K, Wiehler H, Faulkner S, Esser S, Lorenz C, Jentzen W, Hengge D, Goos M, Dudley RE, Ringham G.STD-Unit, Department of Dermatology and Venerology, University of Essen, Germany. ulrich.hengge@uni-duesseldorf.deBACKGROUND: Despite highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART), chronic involuntary weight loss still remains a serious problem in the care of HIV patients. Various alterations in energy metabolism and endocrine regulation have been found to cause loss of lean body mass (LBM) and body cell mass (BCM). Previous studies in HIV-positive men undergoing androgen replacement therapy or treatment with recombinant growth hormone (rGH) have shown partial restoration of LBM, but these treatments have largely been ineffective in eugonadal individuals. STUDY DESIGN: Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial of 89 HIV-positive women and men with wasting assigned to the anabolic steroid oxymetholone [50 mg twice (BID) or three times daily (TID)] or placebo for 16 weeks followed by open-label treatment. STUDY ENDPOINTS: Body weight, bioimpedance measurements, quality of life parameters and appetite. RESULTS: Oxymetholone led to a significant weight gain of 3.0 +/- 0.5 and 3.5 +/- 0.7 kg in the TID and BID groups, respectively (P < 0.05 for each treatment versus placebo), whereas individuals in the placebo group gained an average of 1.0 +/- 0.7 kg. Body cell mass increased in the oxymetholone BID group (3.8 +/- 0.4 kg; P < 0.0001) and in the oxymetholone TID group (2.1 +/- 0.6 kg; P < 0.005), corresponding to 12.4 and 7.4% of baseline BCM, respectively. Significant improvements were noted in appetite and food intake, increased well-being and reduced weakness by self-examination. The most important adverse event was liver-associated toxicity. Overall, 35% of patients in the TID, 27% of patients in the BID oxymetholone group and no patients in the placebo group had a greater than five times baseline increase for alanine aminotransferase during the double-blind phase of the study. CONCLUSIONS: Oxymetholone can be considered an effective anabolic steroid in eugonadal male and female patients with AIDS-associated wasting. The BID (100 mg/day) regimen appeared to be equally effective as the TID (150 mg/day) regimen in terms of weight gain, LBM and BCM and was associated with less, but still significant liver toxicity.
mega doses counter productive
That was news?That's common sense, bro.Diminishing returns, yes........but did we need studies to really back this up? DIV
Of course... we can't just rely on hearsay and preconceived beliefs.The more studies the better...
Sure, I believe that.I just think it's common sense that megadosing leads to diminishing returns.It doesn't even take someone to mega-dose to understand that.Take any dose and you'll see that......DIV
That's more or less what Dillet, J. Cutler, Jeramy Freeman, Mike Aswedu and Scott Milne all told me, find one or two products that work best for you (ie. Sustanon and Winstrol) and just do good amounts +/- 2g a week of them.
I've heard that Mike doesn't do crazy doses of AAS (like you're saying) but I've heard he loves his GH big time. Do you happen to know when he's getting onstage again?
Last time I saw him was about 2 months ago at a club, no idea when he's competing, it didn't come up in the conversation.. I know he loves and swears by Prop and Winstrol, and of course the growth
I guess the point i was just making was that effects such as loss of appetite and lethargy that happen with high dose hepatotoxicity will ultimately destroy the anabolic potential of the drug. this would be particularly true of orals of course On a slightly different topic, I have seen a study that showed rats that were given alot of testosterone and not enough protein (or it could have been calories in general) ended up losing muscle mass while still gaining mass of the sexual organs. It was like the androgen dependent organs were stealing protein from the rest of the body
this is not saying dimishing returns, its saying that once you reach a certain level of doseage, that more AAS actually starts be "counter productive". it looks like theres enough androgen receptors in the human body that you can be using 3500mg per week, however the study with anadol seems to indicate 700mg per week would be just as effective as 1050mg a week (with anadrol in those patients at least)
I wonder how Pangloss calculated the dosage from that rat study and if the calculation is applicable to humans.
I wonder how Pangloss calculated the dosage from that rat study and if the calculation is applicable to humans. That study also talks about neural effects and how some steroids canceled the effects of others.Pangloss also seems to imply testostosterone being most effective of all steroids, and Winstrol for example canceling its protein anabolic effects (I assume). But what about steroids like trenbolone?There's a ceiling for the positive effects of course and there may be some competition between steroids in a negative fashion but I'm afraid the subject is a bit more complex than it seems from those posts.
hes on MDdo you mind if i transfer you questions over to him? or you can go partake in discussions with him personally.. as i recall you have an account over there as well.
Well, he posted here a few days ago and was an ass who didn't want to discuss anything. The type of guy who acts all superior. Patrick is cool though. I'll take a look at the thread over there.
Nice. You insult me and then crawl over to MD to ask me questions. Now that's character.
Speak on this
It's a but much to take things personal over the internet.People often change mood and appearance from forum to forum. DIV
Patrick Arnold has to say about dosing for AAS =two pots by "dr pangloss"...this guy is well educated and does alot of his own research and as far as i can telll is very objective and level headed looks that 3.5g is topsstacking is ineffective and your better off using one steroid (the best one for what your trying to accomplish)taking more than optimal actually dminishes gains
