mega doses counter productive

[tbombz]

had alot of debates about this stuff on the gossip and opiinions board..... and alot of my posts on the steroid board get deleted by division...so i wanna post this here as well......


anyway=



Patrick Arnold has to say about dosing for AAS =

AAS would actually have an inverse u shaped curve of dose versus growth. there would be a dose at which anabolism maxes out and then as doses are increased you would eventually reach toxicity levels which would end up being catabolic

two pots by "dr pangloss"...this guy is well educated and does alot of his own research and as far as i can telll is very objective and level headed

the following study is very interesting for many reasons. not the least of which it suggests that an equivalent of 3.5 g a week of Test propionate is saturating androgen receptors.

 

moreover, if you stack Test prop with winstrol, they competitively displace one another, again suggesting androgen receptor saturation.

 

Finally, there is no more androgen receptor recruitment at 7 g per week than there is at 3.5.

 

Another point to be made here is that stanozolol is actually shown to INHIBIT nuclear androgen receptor accumulation produced by Test prop or nandrolone. this can happen because stanazolol can bind androgen receptors but not result in dimerization and nuclear recrutment.

 

think about it. that says all your doing with really high doses is reducing the effects of your more potent androgens, like testosterone by putting Testosterone in competion with weaker drugs..

 

 

1: Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2006 Mar;83(3):410-9. Epub 2006 Apr 17. Links

 

Stacking anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) during puberty in rats: a neuroendocrine and behavioral assessment.

 

Wesson DW, McGinnis MY.

The University of Texas at San Antonio, Department of Biology, 6900 North Loop 1604 West, San Antonio, TX 78249, USA.

Anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) abuse is increasing in teenagers. We examined the effects of stacked AAS in adolescent male rats. Stacking, in which multiple AAS are taken simultaneously, is commonly employed by humans. Beginning at puberty gonadally intact male rats received testosterone, nandrolone, or stanozolol. Additional groups received stacked AAS: testosterone + stanozolol, nandrolone + stanozolol, or nandrolone + testosterone. Injections continued during tests for sexual behavior, vocalizations, scent marking, partner preference, aggression and fertility. Body and reproductive tissue weights were taken. Sexual and aggressive behaviors were increased by testosterone yet inhibited by stanozolol; nandrolone had no effect. Stacking testosterone with stanozolol prevented the inhibitory effects of stanozolol. Body weight was decreased by testosterone and all stacked AAS. Cell nuclear androgen receptor binding in brain was significantly increased in nandrolone males and decreased in stanozolol males; testosterone males were slightly higher than controls. Androgen receptors in stacked groups were intermediate between individual AAS suggesting that stanozolol competed with other AAS for androgen receptors despite its low affinity. The results indicate that stacking AAS influences the effects of individual AAS on behavioral and endocrine measures, and levels of androgen receptor occupation are not directly correlated with AAS effects on behavior.

PMID: 16603236 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

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this is a great study. phase III randomized double blind placebo control. It shows anadrol works great for adding mass in hiv patients, but 100 mg is just as good as 150 mg ed. Plus, they do liver panels out to 16 weeks. 150 mg is worse on the liver than 100. About 25-28% of people show 5x normal liver enzyme values at 16 weeks. Liver issues start creeping in at 12 weeks.

 

Again, this is another clear indication that more is not better.

 

AIDS. 2003 Mar 28;17(5):699-710. Links

 

Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled phase III trial of oxymetholone for the treatment of HIV wasting.

 

Hengge UR, Stocks K, Wiehler H, Faulkner S, Esser S, Lorenz C, Jentzen W, Hengge D, Goos M, Dudley RE, Ringham G.

STD-Unit, Department of Dermatology and Venerology, University of Essen, Germany. ulrich.hengge@uni-duesseldorf.de

BACKGROUND: Despite highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART), chronic involuntary weight loss still remains a serious problem in the care of HIV patients. Various alterations in energy metabolism and endocrine regulation have been found to cause loss of lean body mass (LBM) and body cell mass (BCM). Previous studies in HIV-positive men undergoing androgen replacement therapy or treatment with recombinant growth hormone (rGH) have shown partial restoration of LBM, but these treatments have largely been ineffective in eugonadal individuals. STUDY DESIGN: Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial of 89 HIV-positive women and men with wasting assigned to the anabolic steroid oxymetholone [50 mg twice (BID) or three times daily (TID)] or placebo for 16 weeks followed by open-label treatment. STUDY ENDPOINTS: Body weight, bioimpedance measurements, quality of life parameters and appetite. RESULTS: Oxymetholone led to a significant weight gain of 3.0 +/- 0.5 and 3.5 +/- 0.7 kg in the TID and BID groups, respectively (P < 0.05 for each treatment versus placebo), whereas individuals in the placebo group gained an average of 1.0 +/- 0.7 kg. Body cell mass increased in the oxymetholone BID group (3.8 +/- 0.4 kg; P < 0.0001) and in the oxymetholone TID group (2.1 +/- 0.6 kg; P < 0.005), corresponding to 12.4 and 7.4% of baseline BCM, respectively. Significant improvements were noted in appetite and food intake, increased well-being and reduced weakness by self-examination. The most important adverse event was liver-associated toxicity. Overall, 35% of patients in the TID, 27% of patients in the BID oxymetholone group and no patients in the placebo group had a greater than five times baseline increase for alanine aminotransferase during the double-blind phase of the study. CONCLUSIONS: Oxymetholone can be considered an effective anabolic steroid in eugonadal male and female patients with AIDS-associated wasting. The BID (100 mg/day) regimen appeared to be equally effective as the TID (150 mg/day) regimen in terms of weight gain, LBM and BCM and was associated with less, but still significant liver toxicity.

looks that =

3.5g is tops

stacking is ineffective and your better off using one steroid (the best one for what your trying to accomplish)

taking more than optimal actually dminishes gains

[Necrosis]

had alot of debates about this stuff on the gossip and opiinions board..... and alot of my posts on the steroid board get deleted by division...so i wanna post this here as well......


anyway=



Patrick Arnold has to say about dosing for AAS =




two pots by "dr pangloss"...this guy is well educated and does alot of his own research and as far as i can telll is very objective and level headed







looks that =

3.5g is tops

stacking is ineffective and your better off using one steroid (the best one for what your trying to accomplish)

taking more than optimal actually dminishes gains

thats not really enough evidence to make a solid conclusion but in terms of endocrinology, if you were to cycle on and off low doses for long periods of time would be optimal.

It also depends on the effects on other hormones, for example, anavar reduces cortisol which will reduce VAT, combating insulin use to some degree. Insulin use raises ACTH increase cortisol from hyperinsulimia so a smart protocol would take into account estrogen, testosterone, cortisol,insulin etc etc.. and the interplay.

high doses will downregulate recpetors faster this is obvious.

[io856]

high doses will downregulate recpetors faster this is obvious.

Really? 

[liquid_c]

I don't know about becoming catabolic, however as for ever drug their is a curve where eventually the extra results from the higher dosages will start dropping dramatically while the sides will dramatically start going up.  Where that curve is is different for every individual.  You simply need to find what works for you.

[io856]

I don't know about becoming catabolic, however as for ever drug their is a curve where eventually the extra results from the higher dosages will start dropping dramatically while the sides will dramatically start going up.  Where that curve is is different for every individual.  You simply need to find what works for you.

bingo...

It cant be the same "rule" for a 5'6" Lee Priest and a 6'2" Toney Freeman

[Wiggs]

bingo...

It cant be the same "rule" for a 5'6" Lee Priest and a 6'2" Toney Freeman

priest = 5'4

[io856]

priest = 5'4

[Parker]

bingo...

It cant be the same "rule" for a 5'6" Lee Priest and a 6'2" Toney Freeman

Priest has stated he was surprised how little Dillett took when they were room mates.

[WillGrant]

bingo...

It cant be the same "rule" for a 5'6" Lee Priest and a 6'2" Toney Freeman

Why not? height has nothing to do with doses , its response

[tbombz]

high doses will downregulate recpetors faster this is obvious.

no thats not true with AAS... in fact aas slightly increases androgen receptor density...       

but what these few things might incicate is that theres a level for each person, that once passed, you might have been better off with the lower dose.


the quote from patrick arnold, i think, is even more powerful than the two studies.