Author Topic: Money for Idiots  (Read 2468 times)

Benny B

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Money for Idiots
« on: February 20, 2009, 10:45:00 AM »
February 20, 2009
Op-Ed Columnist
Money for Idiots
By DAVID BROOKS

Our moral and economic system is based on individual responsibility. It’s based on the idea that people have to live with the consequences of their decisions. This makes them more careful deciders. This means that society tends toward justice — people get what they deserve as much as possible

Over the last few months, we’ve made a hash of all that. The Bush and Obama administrations have compensated foolishness and irresponsibility. The financial bailouts reward bankers who took insane risks. The auto bailouts subsidize companies and unions that made self-indulgent decisions a few decades ago that drove their industry into the ground.

The stimulus package handed tens of billions of dollars to states that spent profligately during the prosperity years. The Obama housing plan will force people who bought sensible homes to subsidize the mortgages of people who bought houses they could not afford. It will almost certainly force people who were honest on their loan forms to subsidize people who were dishonest on theirs.

These injustices are stoking anger across the country, lustily expressed by Rick Santelli on CNBC Thursday morning. “The government is promoting bad behavior!” Santelli cried as Chicago traders cheered him on. “The president ... should put up a Web site ... to have people vote ... to see if they want to subsidize losers’ mortgages!”

Well, in some cases we probably do. That’s because government isn’t fundamentally in the Last Judgment business, making sure everybody serves penance for their sins. In times like these, government is fundamentally in the business of stabilizing the economic system as a whole.

Let me put it this way: Psychologists have a saying that when a couple comes in for marriage therapy, there are three patients in the room — the husband, the wife and the marriage itself. The marriage is the living history of all the things that have happened between husband and wife. Once the patterns are set, the marriage itself begins to shape their individual behavior. Though it exists in the space between them, it has an influence all its own.

In the same way, an economy has an economic culture. Out of billions of individual decisions, a common economic landscape emerges, which frames and influences the decisions everybody makes.

Right now, the economic landscape looks like that movie of the swaying Tacoma Narrows Bridge you might have seen in a high school science class. It started swinging in small ways and then the oscillations built on one another until the whole thing was freakishly alive and the pavement looked like liquid.

A few years ago, the global economic culture began swaying. The government enabled people to buy homes they couldn’t afford. The Fed provided easy money. The Chinese sloshed in oceans of capital. The giddy upward sway produced a crushing ride down.

These oscillations are the real moral hazard. Individual responsibility doesn’t mean much in an economy like this one. We all know people who have been laid off through no fault of their own. The responsible have been punished along with the profligate.

It makes sense for the government to intervene to try to reduce the oscillation. It makes sense for government to try to restore some communal order. And the sad reality is that in these circumstances government has to spend money on precisely those sectors that have been swinging most wildly — housing, finance, etc. It has to help stabilize people who have been idiots.

Actually executing this is a near-impossible task. Looking at the auto, housing and banking bailouts, we’re getting a sense of how the propeller heads around Obama operate. They try to put together programs that are bold, but without the huge interventions in the market implied by, say, nationalization. They’re balancing so many cross-pressures, they often come up with technocratic Rube Goldberg schemes that alter incentives in lots of medium and small ways. Some economists argue that the plans are too ineffectual, others that they are too opaque (estimates for the mortgage plan range from $75 billion to $275 billion and up). Personally, I hate the idea of 10 guys sitting around in the White House trying to redesign huge swaths of the U.S. economy on legal pads.

But at least they seem to be driven by a spirit of moderation and restraint. They seem to be trying to keep as many market structures in place as possible so things can return to normal relatively smoothly.

And they seem to understand the big thing. The nation’s economy is not just the sum of its individuals. It is an interwoven context that we all share. To stabilize that communal landscape, sometimes you have to shower money upon those who have been foolish or self-indulgent. The greedy idiots may be greedy idiots, but they are our countrymen. And at some level, we’re all in this together. If their lives don’t stabilize, then our lives don’t stabilize.
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BM OUT

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2009, 11:42:21 AM »
BULLSHIT!!!!!Let them fail!!!!If they would just leave the economy alone it would work.The community reinvestment act,Freddy Mac,Fannie Mae,bailouts,people taking mortgages they couldnt pay.Now Im expected to pay for them?BULLSHIT!!!

Dan-O

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2009, 12:46:58 PM »
That’s because government isn’t fundamentally in the Last Judgment business, making sure everybody serves penance for their sins. In times like these, government is fundamentally in the business of stabilizing the economic system as a whole.

Individual responsibility doesn’t mean much in an economy like this one. We all know people who have been laid off through no fault of their own. The responsible have been punished along with the profligate.

It makes sense for the government to intervene to try to reduce the oscillation. It makes sense for government to try to restore some communal order. And the sad reality is that in these circumstances government has to spend money on precisely those sectors that have been swinging most wildly — housing, finance, etc. It has to help stabilize people who have been idiots.

Again--BULLSHIT!  Losing a home because you couldn't afford it in the first place isn't "judgement" or any sort of punitive measure--it's fuckin natural consequences in action!  ...Something this crybaby whiney author doesn't seem to understand or be willing to acknowledge.

Grow up dude.  This isn't kindergarten...  you fuck up, you take your lumps, you don't go running to mommy and daddy to bail you out.  What is this nation coming to?

Benny B

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2009, 01:13:22 PM »
Again--BULLSHIT!  Losing a home because you couldn't afford it in the first place isn't "judgement" or any sort of punitive measure--it's fuckin natural consequences in action!  ...Something this crybaby whiney author doesn't seem to understand or be willing to acknowledge.

Grow up dude.  This isn't kindergarten...  you fuck up, you take your lumps, you don't go running to mommy and daddy to bail you out.  What is this nation coming to?
You are welcome to leave.  ;) The money is coming...
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240 is Back

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2009, 01:29:07 PM »
BULLSHIT!!!!!Let them fail!!!!If they would just leave the economy alone it would work.The community reinvestment act,Freddy Mac,Fannie Mae,bailouts,people taking mortgages they couldnt pay.Now Im expected to pay for them?BULLSHIT!!!

willl you be mailing back the 671 bucks, or whatever it is, that obama sends you?

Dan-O

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2009, 01:45:12 PM »
willl you be mailing back the 671 bucks, or whatever it is, that obama sends you?

You mean the $671 (or whatever it is) of HIS OWN MONEY?  What do you think?

The point is, that Brooks dude is a pussy lib who puts no stock in individual accountability.  Apparently he thinks "it takes a village to buy a house."  Whatever.  He uses the word "communal" more than once in his milquetoast diatribe.  Make up your own mind what's the logical conclusion of that line of thinking and has it ever worked in the past?

Dan-O

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2009, 01:56:34 PM »
I did a little reading on David Brooks which was kind of interesting--he says he was a "liberal" until sometime in 1983 when a run-in with economist Milton Friedman (whom I revere as an economic genius) changed his way of thinking.

Although to me it would appear he could use another talk with Friedman, because Milton would surely disapprove of Brooks' stance in the article quoted by BB.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Brooks, who some consider a conservative, describes himself as being originally a liberal. In 1983, for example, he wrote a parody of conservative pundit William F. Buckley, Jr.:

    In the afternoons he is in the habit of going into crowded rooms and making everybody else feel inferior. The evenings are reserved for extended bouts of name-dropping. (University of Chicago Maroon, April 5, 1983.)

Buckley admired the parody and offered Brooks a job with National Review. A turning point in Brooks's thinking came later that year in a televised debate with Milton Friedman, which, as Brooks describes it, "was essentially me making a point, and he making a two-sentence rebuttal which totally devastated my point."[4]

On August 10, 2006, Brooks wrote a column for the New York Times titled "Party No. 3". The column proposed the idea of the McCain-Lieberman Party, or the fictional representation of the moderate majority in America.[5]

Many in the "conservative movement" such as Rush Limbaugh denounce him as he frequently runs to the left. He has long been a McCain supporter; however, Brooks did not show a liking for Governor Sarah Palin, who ran with McCain on the 2008 republican presidential ticket, calling her a "cancer" on the Republican Party.

Benny B

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2009, 03:00:17 PM »
willl you be mailing back the 671 bucks, or whatever it is, that obama sends you?
"Dan-O" never answers this question, because the answer is he will be keeping the money.
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2009, 03:08:52 PM »
Read your own article fool.  It clearly says this plan is solely to bailout irresponsible people.

Dan-O

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2009, 03:10:33 PM »
"Dan-O" never answers this question, because the answer is he will be keeping the money.

I did answer the question (even though it was posed to Billy Mimnaugh and not me)--it's just a little miniscule drop in the bucket of MY MONEY that I paid in payroll taxes over the course of the year that Obama is so graciously letting me have BACK, so yes, I'll be keeping it, DUH.

And like 333386 mentioned, the article you cited isn't even talking about the refund that 240 brought up.  As usual 240 is kind of all over the place.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2009, 03:26:57 PM »
I did answer the question (even though it was posed to Billy Mimnaugh and not me)--it's just a little miniscule drop in the bucket of MY MONEY that I paid in payroll taxes over the course of the year that Obama is so graciously letting me have BACK, so yes, I'll be keeping it, DUH.

And like 333386 mentioned, the article you cited isn't even talking about the refund that 240 brought up.  As usual 240 is kind of all over the place.

The article clearly says Obama is rewarding irresponsible people at the expense of frugal prudent people like ourselves.

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WTC   

Benny B

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 12:24:04 PM »
so yes, I'll be keeping it, DUH.
'Nuff said, hypocrite!
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MCWAY

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2009, 04:00:03 PM »
'Nuff said, hypocrite!

Did you mail the money you got back from Bush's tax cuts?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2009, 04:08:52 PM »
'Nuff said, hypocrite!

Read your own stupid article moron.  The author clearly describes that Obama is rewarding irresponsible people.

Thst is ok right???

Cap

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2009, 04:18:45 PM »
Read your own stupid article moron.  The author clearly describes that Obama is rewarding irresponsible people.

Thst is ok right???
Can you just imagine all the hillbillies and minorities that bought these houses with nothing down, leveraged against them to buy Sea Doos, Escalades, boats, etc and then were able to walk away from it because Barry wants to bail them out?

If you were a responsible home owner that was current on your payments and actually deserved your home then you should be helped but not the above mentioned idiots who helped cause a MAJOR problem in the US.
Squishy face retard

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2009, 04:26:22 PM »
Can you just imagine all the hillbillies and minorities that bought these houses with nothing down, leveraged against them to buy Sea Doos, Escalades, boats, etc and then were able to walk away from it because Barry wants to bail them out?

If you were a responsible home owner that was current on your payments and actually deserved your home then you should be helped but not the above mentioned idiots who helped cause a MAJOR problem in the US.

Over the last few years I saved a ton of cash and put it on the side knowing that RE prices would drop.  Everyone thought I was crazy for not getting in the game.  Now, when it drops another 30% I will be able to get the house I want and have a small loan.

These people knew the deal.  They gambled on the home prices going up forever the same way the banks did.

Cap

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2009, 04:34:56 PM »
Over the last few years I saved a ton of cash and put it on the side knowing that RE prices would drop.  Everyone thought I was crazy for not getting in the game.  Now, when it drops another 30% I will be able to get the house I want and have a small loan.

These people knew the deal.  They gambled on the home prices going up forever the same way the banks did.
BINGO.
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2009, 04:40:08 PM »
That is why I dont feel bad for these people or the banks. 

Let me ask you this, when they flipped their home in three years for 500k more than they bought it for, where they going to share the earnings with me?????

No.  I should not be their partner in the gain, and not their partner in the loss.

Hereford

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2009, 09:32:09 PM »
That is why I dont feel bad for these people or the banks. 

Let me ask you this, when they flipped their home in three years for 500k more than they bought it for, where they going to share the earnings with me?????

No.  I should not be their partner in the gain, and not their partner in the loss.

Correct.

Housing is an investment like any other. Is the federal government going to bail me out for the 60% loss I took in the stock market?

Obama bailed out the auto manufacturers, is he going to cover my GM bonds that took a 94% loss?!?

Benny B

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2009, 10:03:54 PM »
That is why I dont feel bad for these people or the banks. 

Let me ask you this, when they flipped their home in three years for 500k more than they bought it for, where they going to share the earnings with me?????

No.  I should not be their partner in the gain, and not their partner in the loss.
You don't feel bad about a family of four who is on the verge of being thrown out of his home because both parents were laid off? Or some poor schmuck got into a mortgage without reading the fine print and now the payments have gone WAY up to where he can no longer afford the mortgage? You and "Cap" believe that these people should be thrown out on the street. I say no, this is America, and we help each other in times of economic crisis. In helping your neighbor get back on his feet, the bankers sit down and restructure the loan so that your neighbors can stay in their homes and, more importantly for you, YOUR home maintains its value by not being in a neighborhood blighted with foreclosed homes.

If you want to live in a country where those who "have" step on the "have nots" living in boxes on the side of the street as you stride off to your job...well, that's not the America I want to live in, and neither do most Americans. Most Americans support the President's plan, so I'm afraid you'll have to suck it up and swallow one for the team.

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Soul Crusher

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2009, 04:59:05 AM »
Save me the campaign speech and sob story.

Look, most these people were gambling and KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING! 

They saw people making big money and wanted in on the game.  No problem with that, but lets call it what it is, GAMBLING!

The only way the market will correct to what its real value is, is to allow these homes to go to foreclosure and let the market set the actual price. 

You are not doing these people any favors by allowing them to stay in these over priced homes and just delaying the inevitable collapse.

 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2009, 05:02:21 AM »
If you want to live in a country where those who "have" step on the "have nots" living in boxes on the side of the street as you stride off to your job...well, that's not the America I want to live in, and neither do most Americans.


Excuse me, many of these gamblers in foreclosure who took on loans they knew they never could afford are equally guilty in the mess we are in. 

The banks are to blame, of course, and why do you think they are not renegotiating these loans right now at a lower interest rate????

I will tell you - they know the govt is going to bail them out at the higher rate to what the paper is written on and dont feel any need to re-write the loan.

Cap

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2009, 06:03:48 AM »
I would not put people who were laid off in the same category as people who bought houses they could not afford and then bought tons of toys by borrowing against their houses.  If THEY didn't read the fine print that is THEIR fault.  If you don't understand something then you ask, if not then tough shit.  I don't want to pay for it and my kids and grandchildren shouldn't have to pay for the mistakes of people who were not responsible with their homes.
Squishy face retard

Dan-O

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2009, 06:12:58 AM »
You don't feel bad about a family of four who is on the verge of being thrown out of his home because both parents were laid off? Or some poor schmuck got into a mortgage without reading the fine print and now the payments have gone WAY up to where he can no longer afford the mortgage? You and "Cap" believe that these people should be thrown out on the street. I say no, this is America, and we help each other in times of economic crisis. In helping your neighbor get back on his feet, the bankers sit down and restructure the loan so that your neighbors can stay in their homes and, more importantly for you, YOUR home maintains its value by not being in a neighborhood blighted with foreclosed homes.

If you want to live in a country where those who "have" step on the "have nots" living in boxes on the side of the street as you stride off to your job...well, that's not the America I want to live in, and neither do most Americans. Most Americans support the President's plan, so I'm afraid you'll have to suck it up and swallow one for the team.



Wahhh wahhh wahhh.  What a drama queen. ::)

Stepping on people living in boxes on the side of the street as you stride off to work?  Honestly...  you've got talent, you should write for a soap opera or something.  Or maybe Air America.

Benny B

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Re: Money for Idiots
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2009, 08:36:10 AM »
Wahhh wahhh wahhh.  What a drama queen. ::)

Stepping on people living in boxes on the side of the street as you stride off to work?  Honestly...  you've got talent, you should write for a soap opera or something.  Or maybe Air America.

"Wahhh wahhh wahhh", my balls.  ::) There are people all over America on the verge of losing their homes because of layoffs, not just some hidden welfare queens that largely live in your imagination out their gaming the system. Try reading what is actually going on on, shithead. 
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