Killing your unborn child because . . .

[Dos Equis]

It's not a baby. A baby is a independent living organism that has its own body functions and thought processes. A zygote is a microscopic mass of cells.

Not much of a distinction.  A newborn baby is just as dependent as a baby in the womb.

[Dos Equis]

Women can know that they are pregnant even right away because certain things are different. This doesn't mean that the zygote or embryo can think and feel.

At what point does the embryo have brainwaves? And please prove that these brainwaves would equate to thinking and feeling in the fetus.

There's no point in forcing a woman to do something she doesn't want to do. If she chooses to see the picture, that is her choice.


I'm talking about surviving outside of the womb without medical machines or anything like that.

Both being able to think, feel, and survive outside of the womb without artificial aid is required. This means the time area I mentioned earlier.

Nonsense.  The first signal women usually get about pregnancy is missing their period, at which point they are usually already about 4 weeks pregnant.  Those with irregular periods may find out even later.  They don't feel anything right away.  Where are you getting that information? 

Absent rape and incest, no one forces a woman to have sex, or in turn, to get pregnant and have a baby.  Once she gets pregnant she is entrusted with caring for another human life.  The "choice" is whether or not to kill her baby. 

A healthy newborn baby cannot independently survive outside the womb.  Cannot walk, talk, feed herself, etc.  She is as dependent on others for life as a baby attached to the cord. 

[OzmO]

So you consider all of the women who get abortions evil, along with the doctors who perform them? 

Murder is murder.  Whether you do it becuase their parents sinned  or you do it because you don't want the child.

The thing i keep going back and forth with is when does this child gain a consciousness?

[Dos Equis]

Murder is murder.  Whether you do it becuase their parents sinned  or you do it because you don't want the child.

The thing i keep going back and forth with is when does this child gain a consciousness?

I'm asking whether you consider women who have abortions and the doctors who perform them evil?  Don't you have to if you consider abortion evil?

Killing innocent children is wrong.

Abortion is killing innocent children.

Killing innocent children is not godly.

Killing innocent children is EVIL.

[liberalismo]

Not much of a distinction.  A newborn baby is just as dependent as a baby in the womb.

If you see no distinction between a small mass of cells and a baby then you're flaking. Newborn babies are dependent, but they are their own organisms. They are no longer part of the mother, they are independent in that sense. Separate beings. A zygote or even an early embryo or fetus is not an independent being, it is a bodypart, not capable of feeling or thought.

[liberalismo]

Nonsense.  The first signal women usually get about pregnancy is missing their period, at which point they are usually already about 4 weeks pregnant.  Those with irregular periods may find out even later.  They don't feel anything right away.  Where are you getting that information? 

Absent rape and incest, no one forces a woman to have sex, or in turn, to get pregnant and have a baby.  Once she gets pregnant she is entrusted with caring for another human life.  The "choice" is whether or not to kill her baby. 

A healthy newborn baby cannot independently survive outside the womb.  Cannot walk, talk, feed herself, etc.  She is as dependent on others for life as a baby attached to the cord. 

When I say "right away" I mean within the 1st month. Not literally immediately.


I'm tired of proving that zygotes and fetuses are not "babies".

A zygote is a bodypart, an embryo is a bodypart. As much as a finger or a liver is a bodypart. Until it can feel and think and actually live apart from the mother as its own being, then all it is is a bodypart.

[Dos Equis]

When I say "right away" I mean within the 1st month. Not literally immediately.


I'm tired of proving that zygotes and fetuses are not "babies".

A zygote is a bodypart, an embryo is a bodypart. As much as a finger or a liver is a bodypart. Until it can feel and think and actually live apart from the mother as its own being, then all it is is a bodypart.

Newborn babies are as dependent as babies in the womb for about the first year.  They can't walk, talk, feed themselves, tell you when they're sick, change their own diapers, etc.  They are completely dependent on others for survival.  So, to the extent you are trying to distinguish a newborn from an unborn baby based on independence, you really have no factual or logical support for that position.

How long is an organism considered a zygote?   

[liberalismo]

Newborn babies are as dependent as babies in the womb for about the first year.  They can't walk, talk, feed themselves, tell you when they're sick, change their own diapers, etc.  They are completely dependent on others for survival.  So, to the extent you are trying to distinguish a newborn from an unborn baby based on independence, you really have no factual or logical support for that position.

How long is an organism considered a zygote?   

Babies out of the womb are their own human beings who can think and feel.

Zygotes or embryos in the womb are just bodyparts, growths without independent thoughts or feelings.


How long is an organism a zygote? About 4 days. Then it becomes a "Blastocyst". It consists of about 100 microscopic cells.

Pig Blastocyst:

[scooter]

someone said earlier that its all about religion (cant find the post) I am not religious at all, I am an atheist, and I think that abortion is wrong. People trying to defend it are wrong, plain and simple. These are my beliefs. I have a 19 month old son and we heard his heart beat in the 1st or 2nd trimester (I cant remember exactly when) he was a living person, although dependent on the mother he was still living in the womb. Liberalismo when do you honestly believe that abortion is "taking the life of a child" when it takes its 1st breath? When it can feel pain? When it has a heart beat? I believe it is at 15 days. Like I say these are my belief's I would like to hear yours. also why dont you support late term abortion? The "fetus" is still dependent on the mother until its out of the womb and takes its 1st breath, right? So its still like a finger or toe as you have stated before. Although it can live outside the womb it isnt its living inside the mother. People like to point out rape and incest but that is less that 5% of the causes for abortion. Take that out do you agree with the other 95%?

[liberalismo]

someone said earlier that its all about religion (cant find the post) I am not religious at all, I am an atheist, and I think that abortion is wrong. People trying to defend it are wrong, plain and simple. These are my beliefs. I have a 19 month old son and we heard his heart beat in the 1st or 2nd trimester (I cant remember exactly when) he was a living person, although dependent on the mother he was still living in the womb. Liberalismo when do you honestly believe that abortion is "taking the life of a child" when it takes its 1st breath? When it can feel pain? When it has a heart beat? I believe it is at 15 days. Like I say these are my belief's I would like to hear yours. also why dont you support late term abortion? The "fetus" is still dependent on the mother until its out of the womb and takes its 1st breath, right? So its still like a finger or toe as you have stated before. Although it can live outside the womb it isnt its living inside the mother. People like to point out rape and incest but that is less that 5% of the causes for abortion. Take that out do you agree with the other 95%?

Your beliefs are motivated by ignorance of science. Simply because it has a heart beat doesn't mean anything as far as abortion is concerned. The only thing that can rationally matter is the ability to think and feel pain. I oppose late term abortion because it can feel pain and can think.

[Eisenherz]

People who are against early abortion are usually not the ones faced with having the responsibility of raising that child.

[OzmO]

I think a good question here is:  when does the brain of a fetus gain consciousness.  At what point does it become self aware?

[scooter]

Your beliefs are motivated by ignorance of science. Simply because it has a heart beat doesn't mean anything as far as abortion is concerned. The only thing that can rationally matter is the ability to think and feel pain. I oppose late term abortion because it can feel pain and can think.

so I think you said 1st trimester? (had a few beers tonight cant remember) does that mean anything after 1st trimester is murder? I am not ignorant to science at all. I just think that an involuntary movement means the brain has a thought process (cant explain it exactly) ie.. heart beat, movement of the digits (fingers toes) would you not agree that a heart beat shows brain activity? I will agree with you that maybe the 1st 2-3 weeks that it is a collection of cells but when it has a heart beat its a person. Its completely irrelevant if its dependent on the mother or not. My dismissal of this argument is that its completely dependent on the mother after birth up until at least 10 years after birth, so are you saying that until its able to live on its own its not a human?

[liberalismo]

so I think you said 1st trimester? (had a few beers tonight cant remember) does that mean anything after 1st trimester is murder? I am not ignorant to science at all. I just think that an involuntary movement means the brain has a thought process (cant explain it exactly) ie.. heart beat, movement of the digits (fingers toes) would you not agree that a heart beat shows brain activity? I will agree with you that maybe the 1st 2-3 weeks that it is a collection of cells but when it has a heart beat its a person. Its completely irrelevant if its dependent on the mother or not. My dismissal of this argument is that its completely dependent on the mother after birth up until at least 10 years after birth, so are you saying that until its able to live on its own its not a human?

The 2nd trimester. Scientists have proven that there is no thought or pain perception before this time. A heart beat isn't very relevant.

[OzmO]

Not that I approve.  But how is it that you are killing a person if what you are killing doesn't have the consciousness or brain activity of a person?

[Dos Equis]

Babies out of the womb are their own human beings who can think and feel.

Zygotes or embryos in the womb are just bodyparts, growths without independent thoughts or feelings.


How long is an organism a zygote? About 4 days. Then it becomes a "Blastocyst". It consists of about 100 microscopic cells.

Pig Blastocyst:

If an "organism" is a zygote for about 4 days, then it's pretty irrelevant when it comes to abortion.  Women don't have abortions when they're 4 days pregnant, because they don't know they're pregnant for weeks. 

[Dos Equis]

Not that I approve.  But how is it that you are killing a person if what you are killing doesn't have the consciousness or brain activity of a person?

You mean like an anencephalic newborn?  Or a person in a persistent vegetative state?  Or a person in a coma?

[24KT]

Not much of a distinction.  A newborn baby is just as dependent as a baby in the womb.

Oh please... what right do you have to this discussion? You're probaly the biggest abortionist on Getbig! 

[Dos Equis]

Oh please... what right do you have to this discussion? You're probaly the biggest abortionist on Getbig! 

The same "right" as anyone else, including those who know nothing about pregnancy and childbirth.  Troll. 

[Deicide]

McWay, to the best of my knowledge wouldn't force a person to have an abortion, however he would kill an innocent child on god's orders.

A person who would kill an innocent child in an abortion is just as guilty as killing an innocent child who is already born.

There is no difference. It doesn't matter if it's a set up question or not.  The point is:   Killing innocent children is wrong.  Whether you do it on God's orders because you are so ignorant to believe that a child is destine to become evil or what stupid excuse has been cited in this discussion or you do it because you don't want to be pregnant or think the child will starve to death because you won't be able to feed it or what ever the reason is.

Killing innocent children is wrong.

Abortion is killing innocent children.

Killing innocent children is not godly.

Killing innocent children is EVIL.

What if the mother's life is in danger?

[OzmO]

What if the mother's life is in danger?

Well then, it's unfortunate, that someone has to die, be it the child or the mom or both.

[Deicide]

Well then, it's unfortunate, that someone has to die, be it the child or the mom or both.

Why not prioritise the mother's life in that situation as she has actual ties to the world; a new baby can be created any time.

[OzmO]

Why not prioritise the mother's life in that situation as she has actual ties to the world; a new baby can be created any time.

I think thats what is the right thing to do.  I was stating that it was unfortunate that someone has to die.

[MCWAY]

People who are against early abortion are usually not the ones faced with having the responsibility of raising that child.

If they didn't want that responsibility, they shouldn't have engaged in the activity that got them pregnant, in the first place.

[24KT]

The same "right" as anyone else, including those who know nothing about pregnancy and childbirth.  Troll. 

Abortionist