post-workout ice?

[240 is Back]

how many of you use ice on a bodypart you train immediately following a workout?

Do you do this on all parts, only on injured parts, or not at all?  Is there some limitation to muscle growth which is caused by using ice - which prevents inflammation which may be necessary for growth?






And speaking of ice Cube...

[Kegdrainer]

how many of you use ice on a bodypart you train immediately following a workout?

Do you do this on all parts, only on injured parts, or not at all?  Is there some limitation to muscle growth which is caused by using ice - which prevents inflammation which may be necessary for growth?

Every NFL team has ice baths in their training facilities.  It allows for faster recooperation.  Inflamation is not neccesary for muscles to grow since the damage already happened; they will heal faster if you icebath.  This lets you train that bodypart again sooner. 

If my gym had them I would use it.

[tbombz]

  Inflamation is not neccesary for muscles to grow

this could not be further from the truth.

[kiwiol]

Inflamation is not neccesary for muscles to grow since the damage already happened;

Inflammation is your body's response to the 'damage' (read 'minute tears') you cause to your muscles when you train. It's a way of getting more fresh blood (carrying the needed nutrients for repair, healing and growth) to that muscle group. It is not, therefore, something that competes with the damage mechanism like you make it sound to be.

Icing does the same thing in regards to the blood flow albeit the other way - it cools the area of application and to maintain homeostasis, your body responds by driving more blood (carrying nutrients) to the area to increase the temperature. Another thing about icing is that it numbs the nerves in and around the area of application, so that will minimize pain to a certain extent.

[kh300]

i just make snow angels in my gym parking lot.. much more fun then an ice bath

[tbombz]

Inflammation is your body's response to the 'damage' (read 'minute tears') you cause to your muscles when you train. It's a way of getting more fresh blood (carrying the needed nutrients for repair, healing and growth) to that muscle group.

post workiout inflamation is alot more than  just a way to get blood into the muscle.

the inflamation is caused by the release of the prostaglandin pgf2a... a potent stimulus of prrotein synthesis as well as lipolysis and an inhibitor of lipogensis...     the production of the prostaglandin is kick started during the training in response to muscle trauma, when arachidonic acid is released ( arachidonic acid is then used to  produce the prostaglandin)

[kiwiol]

post workiout inflamation is alot more than  just a way to get blood into the muscle.

the inflamation is caused by the release of the prostaglandin pgf2a... a potent stimulus of prrotein synthesis as well as lipolysis and an inhibitor of lipogensis...     the production of the prostaglandin is kick started during the training in response to muscle trauma, when arachidonic acid is released ( arachidonic acid is then used to  produce the prostaglandin)

Absolutely. I was talking in the broad sense and not so much about the underlying biochemical mechanism, causes and triggers.

[240 is Back]

Man 1 applies ice to trained body part for 20 minutes following all workouts for a year.
Man 2 does not.

All other factors equal, who makes more progress in that year?

[WillGrant]

post workiout inflamation is alot more than  just a way to get blood into the muscle.

the inflamation is caused by the release of the prostaglandin pgf2a... a potent stimulus of prrotein synthesis as well as lipolysis and an inhibitor of lipogensis...     the production of the prostaglandin is kick started during the training in response to muscle trauma, when arachidonic acid is released ( arachidonic acid is then used to  produce the prostaglandin)

google is great isnt it

[Kegdrainer]

this could not be further from the truth.

this has never been proven, and in the context of the question....It would be better overall for muscle growth to ice, than to NOT ice.

The body's response to the inflammation is what causes growth, not the actual inflammation itself.  Ice it, recover faster, and re-train 2 days sooner.
 

[cauthon]

how many of you use ice on a bodypart you train immediately following a workout?

Do you do this on all parts, only on injured parts, or not at all?  Is there some limitation to muscle growth which is caused by using ice - which prevents inflammation which may be necessary for growth?

I ice my lower back and hamstrings after deadlift day and squat day. Sometimes my shoulder after a shirted bench day. I will go so far as to say that ice is the most significant reason I can squat twice a week.

First ART now ice. Did 240 or Bust actually start to train?

[240 is Back]

First ART now ice. Did 240 or Bust actually start to train?

You may have noticed my post count decreasing significantly recently as well.  I've always trained 2 or 3 days a week half-assed.  Doing it 5 days a week without the junk food, and suddenly I feel 60 years old

[kiwiol]

Man 1 applies ice to trained body part for 20 minutes following all workouts for a year.
Man 2 does not.

All other factors equal, who makes more progress in that year?

Doubt if there is going to be any difference, cause whether you ice or not, the amount of recovery you will have from a workout will be the same regardless - the ice will only accelerate the rate at which you recover. And I doubt if 20 - 30 minutes of icing once a day is going to make you recover a whole day or two sooner than you otherwise would.

Of course, if you have an injury and you ice every few hours as part of the treatment, that will make a big difference in how much you recuperate.

There could be more factors involved - not sure if there is more than the above reason for the sporting organizations to make their athletes do the ice bath thing.

[body88]

Man 1 applies ice to trained body part for 20 minutes following all workouts for a year.
Man 2 does not.

All other factors equal, who makes more progress in that year?

240 stops posting about all this pointless nonsense and he just gets in the gym and lifts the fuck out of every weight he can get his hands on for the next year. 2 days on one day off, heavy weights, compounds exercises and tons of clean food.

Check back in a year and then you can worry about taking an ice bath after the freaking gym, Joe Montana 

[cauthon]

You may have noticed my post count decreasing significantly recently as well.  I've always trained 2 or 3 days a week half-assed.  Doing it 5 days a week without the junk food, and suddenly I feel 60 years old

Good stuff! Try steaming or hot tub as well. Also as much flack as people give the guy Atlarge ETS is probably the best supplement ever made for recovery.

Stay healthy for the kids.

[The Coach]

You only need to ice the injured effected area almost immediately after training.

[240 is Back]

You only need to ice the injured effected area almost immediately after training.

I am only using ice for a few minutes on the shoulder following a workout.

I just didn't know if there were other benefits of ice (or heat!) that might aid with recovery and limit soreness.

[The Coach]

I am only using ice for a few minutes on the shoulder following a workout.

I just didn't know if there were other benefits of ice (or heat!) that might aid with recovery and limit soreness.

A few minutes won't do much, but 20-30min will bring down immflamation. FYI, don't do things that irritate your RC.

[Van_Bilderass]

1: Br J Sports Med. 2007 Jun;41(6):392-7. Epub 2007 Jan 29.Click here to read Links
    Ice-water immersion and delayed-onset muscle soreness: a randomised controlled trial.
    Sellwood KL, Brukner P, Williams D, Nicol A, Hinman R.

    Sports Physicians ACT, Deakin, ACT 2600, Australia. kyliesellwood@optusnet.com.au

    OBJECTIVE: To determine if ice-water immersion after eccentric quadriceps exercise minimises the symptoms of delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS). DESIGN: A prospective randomised double-blind controlled trial was undertaken. 40 untrained volunteers performed an eccentric loading protocol with their non-dominant leg. INTERVENTIONS: Participants were randomised to three 1-min immersions in either ice water (5+/-1 degrees C) or tepid water (24 degrees C). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Pain and tenderness (visual analogue scale), swelling (thigh circumference), function (one-legged hop for distance), maximal isometric strength and serum creatine kinase (CK) recorded at baseline, 24, 48 and 72 h after exercise. Changes in outcome measures over time were compared to determine the effect of group allocation using independent t tests or Mann-Whitney U tests. RESULTS: No significant differences were observed between groups with regard to changes in most pain parameters, tenderness, isometric strength, swelling, hop-for-distance or serum CK over time. There was a significant difference in pain on sit-to-stand at 24 h, with the intervention group demonstrating a greater increase in pain than the control group (median change 8.0 vs 2.0 mm, respectively, p = 0.009). CONCLUSIONS: The protocol of ice-water immersion used in this study was ineffectual in minimising markers of DOMS in untrained individuals. This study challenges the wide use of this intervention as a recovery strategy by athletes.

[The Coach]

He has a RC injury, not DOMS, it sounds like it irritates during and immediately after the workout.

[Van_Bilderass]

Cryotherapy

Q: should we use Ice baths post activity?

Evidence available:
Outcome measures muscle soreness, function and performance.
Study interventions done post activity
Loughborough studies were on elite athletes, other studies untrained subjects.
Variations in length of time of intervention and temp
Not much attention to psychological input or discomfort levels of the intervention
Only one research group (Loughborough) has reported long term as well as short term effects of repeated v single ice baths.
Research exists on ice applications, and also pre activity ice jackets etc for performance: not considered as part of this review.

A: No.
The effects of repeated ice baths over a period of time suggest they would impair performance. Single use there is definite analgesic effect and some physiological and possible psychological benefit, but can this be obtained in another way without the same detriment: nutrition, compression analgesia, NSAID’s? (See also multi interventions summary)
There is also not enough evidence to suggest that contrast bathing as part of recovery is any more effective.
A: Yes possibly.
Not many studies have looked at ice immersion post bruising and physical damage as part of recovery, although they have ice applications for acute injury and the evidence here is positive.
(Comment: ice baths have psychological effect on some players so if their use is to be reduced, I would recommend a weaning off /education /alternative intervention period first!)
Further evidence needed: one off ice baths under certain circumstances. Contrast baths.

http://www.sisport.com/sisport/files/Recovery%20Booklet%20Extension%20-%20Ice%20Baths.pdf

[Van_Bilderass]

He has a RC injury, not DOMS, it sounds like it irritates during and immediately after the workout.

Yeah. These are for Kedrainer then. 

Every NFL team has ice baths in their training facilities.  It allows for faster recooperation.  Inflamation is not neccesary for muscles to grow since the damage already happened; they will heal faster if you icebath.  This lets you train that bodypart again sooner. 

If my gym had them I would use it.

[240 is Back]

ART doc said it was strained tendon - biceps tendon actually... seems it runs into/under the shoulder muscles?  I wasn't 100% sure of the anatomy.

He applied electricity and motion, beat the hell out of it, and I was feeling no pain today

[The Coach]

ART doc said it was strained tendon - biceps tendon actually... seems it runs into/under the shoulder muscles?  I wasn't 100% sure of the anatomy.

He applied electricity and motion, beat the hell out of it, and I was feeling no pain today

Yes, the bicep tendon ties into the shoulder and could be confused with RC or labral pain. If the tendon detaches there is really not much to do except let heal as is but you will have some bicep deformity from the tear.

[240 is Back]

Yes, the bicep tendon ties into the shoulder and could be confused with RC or labral pain. If the tendon detaches there is really not much to do except let heal as is but you will have some bicep deformity from the tear.

he poked a lot at the AC and RC... no probs at all there.  he yanked the biceps tendon at shoulder, and holy shit it hurt.

the tendon just popped out of place and back into place.  Seems you need 4 to 6 weeks of rest from that happening.  Ended up being 6 for me, cause my stupid ass tried triaing every 2 weeks.  The good news is that that RC movements I used for the last week have helped TREMENDOUSLY.  They are pulling the humerus, giving that tendon more room, reducing impingement.  thanks agian man for that workout.