Author Topic: Do you have the believe the Bible is the 100% word of God to be a Christian?  (Read 21210 times)

OzmO

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that is incorrect, more recent more accurate tests have confirmed it to be from the time of Jesus. I have read the arguments, but as i said there are too many reports from too vast an area to be false IMO. i respect your views though, and it's a pity we will never know for certain.

Unfortunately, even it if it were proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was from the time of Jesus, it still would be impossible to prove it was from him.

Deicide

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that is incorrect, more recent more accurate tests have confirmed it to be from the time of Jesus. I have read the arguments, but as i said there are too many reports from too vast an area to be false IMO. i respect your views though, and it's a pity we will never know for certain.

Well, where I stand is: we cannot know for certain and I think it improbable there was a historical Jesus; there may have been but we will never know.

And I think the dating for the Schroud is still controversial.
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Fatpanda

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What's with the eye-rolling? The Gospels NEVER indicated that the Roman Catholic Church (or any other body, for that matter) were given the power to forgive sins and control who gets into heaven. In fact, per the Gospels, we have the words of Jesus who taught His disciples how to pray and give supplication DIRECTLY to the Father. The prototype for this is what we commonly know as the "Lord's Prayer", which contains the words, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors".

Jesus gave no indication that church gathering should be forsaken; otherwise, He would have never gone to the synagogues, Himself.

NONE of the Gospels mentions that the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, not even John's Gospel. His Gospel isn't "totally different", but it has unique testimony that the others do not. That can be said for the other three as well.


Again, I don't get the eye-rolling. The canonical Gospels say absolutely NOTHING that would give the RCC any of the power about which you're complaining. As stated earlier, the Reformation started, NOT due to some mysterious books being found, but by the fact that people read the BIBLE (i.e. the 66 books we've come to know) for themselves and discovered that the teachings of THOSE BOOKS were in stark contrast to what the RCC was claiming.

Plus, the Dead Sea Scrolls are, by and large, nothing more than ancient copies of the VERY SAME Bible books (particularly those of the Old Testament).

Mark and Luke were not (Luke states from the beginning of his Gospel, that he interviewed eyewitnesses to Christ); Matthew and John, however, were.



i typed out a loooong reply to this including references, then the page refreshed and i lost everything  :(

so i can't be bothered tracking them all down again. here are the cliff notes:

I'm afraid you are wrong on most of what you have claimed.

1. i agree the bible does not say the church has the power to forgive sin ( how could it, it wasn't formed yet) since however the catechism has give the church power to forgive sin and hear confession - i.e. granting them power and wealth.
2. Jesus never spoke about giving confession either, but there you go - the church was created, and became the most powerful rich force in the world, all the while spreading a religion that its founder - Jesus taught to feed he hungry, and have no money  :-\
3. i never said the bible talks about the sacking of Jerusalem, i was making the point that scholars used that omission to better estimate the date of the gospels - nothing more.
4. i never claimed the reformation happened due to a mysterious book being found either. Although the reformation wasn't about power to forgive either as you claim, it was about abuse of power, and double standards i.e. adultery, indulgence, bribery etc forgiveness of sin is still widely accepted as a power of the church today too.
5. the dead seas scrolls contain much more than the standard bible texts - perhaps you should read more about them.
6. scholars have not agreed that matthew and john were apostles, johns age alone makes it virtually impossible for it to be the same man as the apostle. if they were the same man he would have been well over 100 years old when he wrote the gospel.

i seem to have offended you with my roll eyes, for that i am sorry. However i sense more hostility than that. If you are a proud Christian i again am sorry if i offended your beliefs, but i believe in facts and like to read and weight the evidence before me. What i have read leads me to my beliefs regarding the church. I was raised a catholic, but years of reading books has revealed much to me.

i am now proud to call myself a Buddhist.
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I think it is unlikely there was a historical Jesus for various reasons;  NO solid extra-biblical documentation attesting to such a figure and the cut and paste nature of the gospels mirroring passages from the OT.

I haven't found this to be true. However, I would like to read what your thoughts are on it.

Quote
Nevermind all the contradictions...

I can't find any; which ones are you referring too?. If you do list, start with one at a time if you don't mind.


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OzmO

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Bump!

Still no one can show that to be a christian/saved you must believe the KJV Bible is the word of God.

 



Dos Equis

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Bump!

Still no one can show that to be a christian/saved you must believe the KJV Bible is the word of God.

 




What do you mean?  How do you "show" this?  It's an individual decision. 


Fatpanda

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Bump!

Still no one can show that to be a christian/saved you must believe the KJV Bible is the word of God.

 




there is much evidence to suggest that jesus himself was a gnostic - who believe that knowledge and salvation lie within. They also place much belief on meditation as a key to enlightenment - much like hindu's and buddists. There are a few really good gnostic sites on the web that you would find interesting i beieve.

http://gnosticteachings.org/

to me the kjb was just a exercise in power by the monarchs, very similar to the original roman bible - both shams due to missing gospels and edited the gospels that were put in to further their agenda for power and lust.

on a similar note the bible/jesus/moses have always spoke about the serpant being the devil and evil yet the crest of the vatican has always been a dragon  ::)
The vatican has always called other religions - heathens, pagans, devil worshipers etc, yet the vatican is full of artifacts, statues, books etc from these 'heathen religions'  ::)
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OzmO

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What do you mean?  How do you "show" this?  It's an individual decision. 



How does one show how to be saved?  They show the verses that say how don't they?  And give testimony right?

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i typed out a loooong reply to this including references, then the page refreshed and i lost everything  :(

so i can't be bothered tracking them all down again. here are the cliff notes:

I'm afraid you are wrong on most of what you have claimed.

1. i agree the bible does not say the church has the power to forgive sin ( how could it, it wasn't formed yet) since however the catechism has give the church power to forgive sin and hear confession - i.e. granting them power and wealth.

What catechism is that? John writes in one of his later books (1 John, I believe) that “If we confess our sins, HE is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, the “HE” being Christ. That ties right into the example of the “Lord’s Prayer”: the confession of sin is to Jesus Christ.

Even in the OT, the priests took up sin offerings on behalf of the people and presented then before the Lord and it was HE who forgave people of sin. Nowhere, in either Testament, does it declare or indicate that the priests themselves had such authority.


2. Jesus never spoke about giving confession either, but there you go - the church was created, and became the most powerful rich force in the world, all the while spreading a religion that its founder - Jesus taught to feed he hungry, and have no money  :-\

The issue wasn't the presence or absence of money. Many rich people (the centurion, Nicodemus, Zaccheus, etc.) became followers of Jesus. And, it took rich (or at least, well-to-do) folk to fund Paul's multiple trips to other countries to preach the Gospel. The issue was where people put their priorities.


3. i never said the bible talks about the sacking of Jerusalem, i was making the point that scholars used that omission to better estimate the date of the gospels - nothing more.

Agreed. And traditional scholars cite that as evidence support the Gospels being written 1st century A.D. Dr. Paul Meier, from the University of Western Michigan mentioned that, when addressing the authorship of Matthew. He cites Matthew's tendency for recording anything perceived as fulfillment of prophecy. Per his words, "Can you imagine that, if (the Gospel of) Matthew were written anytime after 70 A.D., wild horses couldn't have stopped Matthew from saying, 'And Jesus' words were fulfilled when Jersualem was destroyed'. He doesn't say that; and that's very unlike Matthew."


4. i never claimed the reformation happened due to a mysterious book being found either. Although the reformation wasn't about power to forgive either as you claim, it was about abuse of power, and double standards i.e. adultery, indulgence, bribery etc forgiveness of sin is still widely accepted as a power of the church today too.

For Catholics, maybe, NOT for Protestants. That was my point on why the Reformation started. All that you listed here was fueled by the fact that, once the common man was able to read Scripture for himself, he saw the HUGE gulf that existed between what the RCC taught and what was in "Thus saith the Lord!"


5. the dead seas scrolls contain much more than the standard bible texts - perhaps you should read more about them.

I know that, hence the reason I used the phrast, "By and large".


6. scholars have not agreed that matthew and john were apostles, johns age alone makes it virtually impossible for it to be the same man as the apostle. if they were the same man he would have been well over 100 years old.

Traditional and "liberal" (for lack of a better term) scholars don't agree with the date of the Gospels or their respective authors. In fact, we'll hear more about that over the next few weeks with Resurrection Day/Easter on the horizon. I recorded a show, back in 2005, that deals with this very subject: "Who Is This Jesus? Is He Risen?" from Coral Ridge Ministries, founded by the late Dr. D. James Kennedy. Actually, I had a thread here with clips from that show on YouTube. I can bring it up, if you wish to check it out.

As for John's age, I see little suggesting he'd have been over a century old, if he were the author of the 4th Gospel (as well as those other three books and Revelation). It's my understanding that John was in his early 80s, when he penned his works.


i seem to have offended you with my roll eyes, for that i am sorry. However i sense more hostility than that. If you are a proud Christian i again am sorry if i offended your beliefs, but i believe in facts and like to read and weight the evidence before me. What i have read leads me to my beliefs regarding the church. I was raised a catholic, but years of reading books has revealed much to me.

i am now proud to call myself a Buddhist.


It's not so much that I'm "offended". It's that the basis of your statements is that the canonical Gospels were picked because they contain something that supposedly gives the RCC the authority to commit those abuses you cited, while the books that were left out would have counter that.

My argument is that, regardless of the non-Biblical books, the Gospels themselves contain nothing that would give way to things like indulgences, priests forgiving sins, or any other issue you cited earlier. If anything, they teach the exact OPPOSITE of that. The RCC's power-and-wealth grab (if you will) had little to do with the verses between Genesis and Revelation.

We're both in agreement that the Catholic Church taught/teaches a lot of stuff that is quite contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ. The only semantics here is the Canon.





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Forgive me for not reading all 5 pages on this topic and possibly repeating what someone else may have suggested on this topic. I think the question should be revised to say: "How can one claim to be a Christian if he/she does not believe the the bible (as we know it) is 100% the word of God?

The Canon of scripture is the only revelation to mankind that we have for the redeemption of the world through Jesus Christ.

God (The Holy Spirit) enables one to believe in the word of God. The Holy Spirit inspired the entire Canon of Scripture unto salvation in Christ. That said, if you don't believe in what is written of him how can you have the salvation which is provided through him, i.e. Christ Jesus?

HM 
W

OzmO

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Forgive me for not reading all 5 pages on this topic and possibly repeating what someone else may have suggested on this topic. I think the question should be revised to say: "How can one claim to be a Christian if he/she does not believe the the bible (as we know it) is 100% the word of God?

The Canon of scripture is the only revelation to mankind that we have for the redeemption of the world through Jesus Christ.

God (The Holy Spirit) enables one to believe in the word of God. The Holy Spirit inspired the entire Canon of Scripture unto salvation in Christ. That said, if you don't believe in what is written of him how can you have the salvation which is provided through him, i.e. Christ Jesus?

HM 

Good point, "IF" the all of the bible was written before Jesus outlined the path to salvation.  But it wasn't that way and also, nothing in the bible says you must believe 100% of it to be saved.  It simply says in so many words, believe in me, accept me as your savior, repent, and you will be saved, right?

Does it say you must also believe in a collection of scriptures and letters dubiously assembled  300 years later to be the 100% WOG to be saved?

Deicide

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i typed out a loooong reply to this including references, then the page refreshed and i lost everything  :(

so i can't be bothered tracking them all down again. here are the cliff notes:

I'm afraid you are wrong on most of what you have claimed.

1. i agree the bible does not say the church has the power to forgive sin ( how could it, it wasn't formed yet) since however the catechism has give the church power to forgive sin and hear confession - i.e. granting them power and wealth.
2. Jesus never spoke about giving confession either, but there you go - the church was created, and became the most powerful rich force in the world, all the while spreading a religion that its founder - Jesus taught to feed he hungry, and have no money  :-\
3. i never said the bible talks about the sacking of Jerusalem, i was making the point that scholars used that omission to better estimate the date of the gospels - nothing more.
4. i never claimed the reformation happened due to a mysterious book being found either. Although the reformation wasn't about power to forgive either as you claim, it was about abuse of power, and double standards i.e. adultery, indulgence, bribery etc forgiveness of sin is still widely accepted as a power of the church today too.
5. the dead seas scrolls contain much more than the standard bible texts - perhaps you should read more about them.
6. scholars have not agreed that matthew and john were apostles, johns age alone makes it virtually impossible for it to be the same man as the apostle. if they were the same man he would have been well over 100 years old when he wrote the gospel.

i seem to have offended you with my roll eyes, for that i am sorry. However i sense more hostility than that. If you are a proud Christian i again am sorry if i offended your beliefs, but i believe in facts and like to read and weight the evidence before me. What i have read leads me to my beliefs regarding the church. I was raised a catholic, but years of reading books has revealed much to me.

i am now proud to call myself a Buddhist.


Near zero evidence to support an historical Buddha as well; I'd say even less than for Jesus.
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Dos Equis

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How does one show how to be saved?  They show the verses that say how don't they?  And give testimony right?

There are many ways to "show how to be saved."  One way is Bible study.  Another is to be "lifestyle evangelist," which means the way you live your life provides an example or "witness" to others.  Everyone's life is a testimony (either good or bad). 

OzmO

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There are many ways to "show how to be saved."  One way is Bible study.  Another is to be "lifestyle evangelist," which means the way you live your life provides an example or "witness" to others.  Everyone's life is a testimony (either good or bad). 

But when it comes down to it, one must believe that Jesus is god and Savior to be saved.  Good works alone is not enough to get saved right?

Dos Equis

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But when it comes down to it, one must believe that Jesus is god and Savior to be saved.  Good works alone is not enough to get saved right?

Good works do not get people saved IMO.  You don't work your way into heaven.  I live my life a certain way because it’s the right thing to do and because I’m a role model for my kids and others, not because I’m trying to earn my ticket.     

I don't think a person necessarily has to believe in Jesus to be saved.  It depends on the level of knowledge and exposure the person has.  Someone who has never been exposed to the Bible, etc. isn't accountable for what they don't know.  I think it's only those who are old enough, competent enough, and have undertaken their study who "must" believe in Jesus. 

Like me.  There is no way I could turn my back on what I have learned throughout my life.  And I have studied enough about other "gods" and religions, and experienced enough in my own life, to know that there is only way to heaven for me.   

OzmO

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Good works do not get people saved IMO.  You don't work your way into heaven.  I live my life a certain way because it’s the right thing to do and because I’m a role model for my kids and others, not because I’m trying to earn my ticket.     

I don't think a person necessarily has to believe in Jesus to be saved.  It depends on the level of knowledge and exposure the person has.  Someone who has never been exposed to the Bible, etc. isn't accountable for what they don't know.  I think it's only those who are old enough, competent enough, and have undertaken their study who "must" believe in Jesus. 

Like me.  There is no way I could turn my back on what I have learned throughout my life.  And I have studied enough about other "gods" and religions, and experienced enough in my own life, to know that there is only way to heaven for me.   


From what i understand, according to the bible, its the only way.

Quote
I live my life a certain way because it’s the right thing to do and because I’m a role model for my kids and others, not because I’m trying to earn my ticket.

I believe that of you.  no doubt.

Dos Equis

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From what i understand, according to the bible, its the only way.

I believe that of you.  no doubt.

Thanks.  What the Bible actually says is you are only accountable for what you know.   

Deicide

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But when it comes down to it, one must believe that Jesus is god and Savior to be saved.  Good works alone is not enough to get saved right?

All about Jebus!

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All about Jebus!



yep...gotta love the my religion is the right one.and everyone elses religion is the wrong one mentality.haha to funny
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OzmO

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Thanks.  What the Bible actually says is you are only accountable for what you know.   

Yes, it may, however, accepting Jesus as your savior is or isn't enough to be saved?  Must you also believe a book assembled 300 years after his death is the 100% WOG to be saved?

That's the contention here.

Dos Equis

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Yes, it may, however, accepting Jesus as your savior is or isn't enough to be saved?  Must you also believe a book assembled 300 years after his death is the 100% WOG to be saved?

That's the contention here.

It is enough IMO.

I'm sure it's possible to be a Christian and not believe everything in the Bible is God's word, but it certainly sounds like a contradiction.  What I do see often are disagreements on how to interpret the Bible, but not whether it's actually God's word. 

I think you really have to use common sense and your conscience as your guide.  Even my wife and I don't agree on how to interpret all parts of the Bible, but we both believe it's God's word.  Same with my best friend.  We don't agree on how to interpret everything. 

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All about Jebus!



watch that spelling dumbass

OzmO

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It is enough IMO.

I'm sure it's possible to be a Christian and not believe everything in the Bible is God's word, but it certainly sounds like a contradiction.  What I do see often are disagreements on how to interpret the Bible, but not whether it's actually God's word. 

I think you really have to use common sense and your conscience as your guide.  Even my wife and I don't agree on how to interpret all parts of the Bible, but we both believe it's God's word.  Same with my best friend.  We don't agree on how to interpret everything. 

i agree with you there, so in essence you think one doesn't have to?

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The Bible itself is the principal evidence that Jesus Christ is a historical person. The record in the Gospels is not a vague narrative of events at some unspecified time and in an unnamed location. It clearly states time and place in great detail. For an example, look at (Luke 3:1, 2, 21-23).

Josephus (Jewish historian) referred to the stoning of James, who was the brother of Jesus. This same Jesus was referred to as the "Christ" by Josephus.

Another secular source was Tacitus, a Roman historian who lived during the latter part of the first century. He also referred to Christ.

Even the The New Encyclopedia Britannica admits that these sources are legit and that OPPONENTS of Christianity did not doubt the existence of Jesus.

What's your take on this info Decide? Just asking?   :)




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i agree with you there, so in essence you think one doesn't have to?


I could give you some Scriptures to go by, but I'm not sure which ones you believe in?   ;D :P



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