I respect you and your thoughts AB, as I have been reading your opinions on this board for some time. I know that you have a true background in martial arts and know much of what you talk about. However, you make some false assumptions and draw a conclusions that I believe are false. For that reason I am going to address your post.
Blind hero worship clouds your judgement. First off, I studied WC because of BL.
You do not know me to come to the asinine conclusion that I suffer from "hero worship." I don't believe in heroes with the exception of perhaps my parents and certainly my Lord and savior Christ Jesus. So many of us over a certain age got into MA primarily due to Bruce.
I trained primarily under two Jeet Kune Do instructors: one third generation (under Inosanto), and one fourth generation (under Vunak). I learned early on from both men not to engage in hero worship as it will hurt your ability to learn certain fighting skills and what would work for you as an individual.
I am a former instructor under Robert Leung, who is a Wong Long student, who was a Yip Man student. In the WC circles, JFL was the prodigal son, who never finished the system, but popularised it because of his movies. JFL was in fact moving away from "trapping," and Guro Dan would be the first to tell you this.
Your knowledge base on WC should be strong based on your background. I got most of my knowledge of WC through JKD, although I did train a couple of times with Lo Man Kam (nephew of Yip Man, whose real name was Ki Man.) I know the thinking of many traditional Wing Chun practioners. "Bruce never truly learned all of Wing Chun, and that is why it did not work for him." Bruce, or "JFL" as you call him, said "once you learn trapping, discard it, use it when it is necessary, don't hang on to it." To say that he did away with trapping and Wing Chun is ludicrous because one cannot simply throw away something that is a part of you. It would be more appropriate to say that he de-emphasized, simplified, or simply modified it to a degree that it no longer appeared to be what he was originally doing. I know Inosanto's thoughts on this because I have heard him speak on it personally.
Here's an excerpt from Vunak on trapping:
Dan [Inosanto] approached me and advised me to go back into the JKD class. I did so, and to my amazement, I was straight blasting, head butting, kneeing, and elbowing every person in the class. This gave me an incredible epiphany: I learned that full-contact sparring alone, even though it is the most “alive” drill one can do, is not enough to take a person even close to their fullest potential! I was elated at my new tools (my self-perfection drills) that could make people functional with their trapping. This is why I find it ironic that many of the people who say they cannot functionalize their traps coincidentally also hate self-perfection drills.
At this point I was convinced that there was no need for Wing Chun traps! About two years later, I got into a fight with a very famous Wing Chun man (I’m not going to mention his name). When the fight began, I entered with my straight blast, but instead of him turning and covering like everyone else, HE occupied centerline as a response, and we were stuck at a reference point. This precipitated a pak sao/lop sao from me, and I followed up with several elbows to the face, and was pleased with the result. The very poignant lesson that I learned was this: The only time you ever need to do a Wing Chun trap is if you’re fighting a Wing Chun man who happens to occupy center line. Otherwise, the vast majority of the time, one never needs to trap the arms at all. This is why over the many years to follow, when people hear me refer to trapping, I’m talking about an entry, straight blast, and head butting, kneeing and elbowing…not some pak sao! (Later, when I was teaching SEAL Team Six, I coined the name “Rapid Assault Tactics”, or RAT for short) for this method of trapping.He started getting more involved in western boxing, wrestling and judo. Larry Hartsell was a second degree black belt in judo.
Correct, as well as studying several other arts. Sijo Bruce was
never Hartsell's student, but his
instructor. Hartsell first martial art was Kempo, and then he earned a black belt in Judo. He continued to study grappling after Bruce died and made his life's work the foundation of the core of the Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Grappling.
He had periphial knowledge of both judo, through his brief studies in Washington state, Wally Jay and Hayward Nishioka. He didn't slap on a white belt and "empty his cup" like he espoused.
What?
Bruce never in his life mentioned putting on a "white belt" to learn an art. This is complete bullshit made up by you AB. The "empty your cup" phrase comes from a story Bruce Lee told where
a master was trying to make a point to an arrogant visiting martial artist. This martial artist ostensibly came to learn from the master, but merely wanted to prate his own ideas. In the story, the master begins to fill the visitor's cup with tea, but when it is full, the master continues to pour and the tea runs out. When the visitor points this out, the master replies, "until you empty your cup, you cannot get any more tea." The basic concept is that if you are full of your own ideas, there is no room for new ones.Bruce Lee was not only a master martial artist, he was also a master of learning from others. He was constantly emptying his cup and taking in new ideas. In his brief lifetime,
he continued to learn from others causing him to change philosophies many times, and create martial arts systems based on these constantly renewing ideas.Because of this unwillingness (or lack of time), he never quite understood arts like Guro Dan. (Although Guro Dan will opine that he was never the athlete JFL was).
Again, a statement made with no basis in reality. Dan is still alive, so if that is what you mean, then of course he has gathered more insight into various arts over the last 30+ years. Dan loved to research arts and often would share his findings with his friend and teacher. If you stated to Sigung Inosanto that he understood the arts he introduced to Bruce better than Bruce did, he would laugh. Once he made Bruce aware of some new finding he had made, within a short period of time Bruce was kicking his ass in that same art! The Filipino arts are the one area where I would be in agreement that Inosanto's knowledge was superior to Bruce's .
You also aren't giving fighters like Urijah, Nori, and Mike Brown credit. Urijah got into a gang fight in Thailand, and came out on the winning side. That wasn't sport fighting. Nori has gotten into MANY a fight outside the confines of the ring, and come out on top. Professional fighters will always have an advantage over non professionals.
If I wasn't careful, I would think you are engaging in hero worship of your "mma" heroes. Why, you've turned them into mythological Gods.
And someone forgot to tell Tim Sylvia about "professional fighters will always having an advantage over non professionals."
That's true within the confines of your sport, but not necessarily anywhere else. I personally have known a couple of Golden Gloves champions who have gotten beat down on the street.
JFL, or Bruce, was a stud, no doubt. But no takedown defense=getting mounted and eating punches and elbows until you are unconcious. I have wrestled most of my life practice TD defense (as have sub grappling, BJJ, MMA fighters for that matter) and STILL get taken down by better wrestlers at will.
No offense, but you're no Bruce Lee son. You're not even a Chuck Liddell, who does not get taken down "at will."
I think I mentioned that if Sijo were alive today he would be as knowledgeable as anyone on BJJ, Russian Sombo, etc.
He didn't, and he assumed the Jeet Tek, Biu Gee would "intercept" his opponents attacks and prevent crossing into trapping and grappling range. Had Helio or Carlson been around, he would have been a big proponent of BJJ.
Stop kicks are a part of the arsenal, but Bruce knew enough to know they weren't a guarantee in every fight. I already stated Bruce would be a fan of BJJ, which is why Inosanto has made it part of the Jeet Kune Do Concepts curriculum. Just because YOU love it and are a complete believer does not mean Bruce would embrace every aspect of it wholeheartedly, however.
Judo Gene easily picked him up on the set of the Green Hornet and walked around with JFL, while Bruce threatened to "Kill him."
I am well aware of this incident, and I hope you realize that although Bruce got angry that they were playing around. It was on the set of the "Green Hornet" television show, and it is not like Bruce was going to gouge out Gene's eyes at that time.
I think I stated pretty clearly that LeBell was a BAD man, as tough as nails. Also a much bigger guy than Bruce.
Directly from "Judo Gene":
"Bruce called me for a few shows because he liked the way I took falls for him - being a judo man made me pretty good at breakfalls. We ended up becoming friends and would work out together and teach each other techniques. I liked working out with Bruce, but I kept getting sick from that stinky incense he burned in his gym. I told him I wouldn't go there because his dojo smelled worse than a Chinese laundry house. Of course, I was only kidding with him, and once Bruce learned that my teasing was all in good fun he started to joke around too. Bruce came to my dojo after that. He was a great guy, and I loved him.
"Bruce loved to learn grappling, he ate it up! He said that people would never go for it in movies or TV because the fights are over too fast and most of the good stuff was hidden from view. He said they wanted to see fancy kicking, acrobatics, and weapons -- he was a savvy showman who knew how to give 'em exactly what they wanted. I wish he could be around now to see how well grappling is doing these days. I remember one time he kicked me really hard. I remember thinking it was a good thing he only wore a size 6 shoe instead of a 14 like me, otherwise that kick would have sent me to China! He was strong for his size, lemme tell ya.
