High Estrogen Genetically not Suited for Gear?

[pink]

I thank those of you who have given me advice through my struggle here in the last few years.
In short I lifted until my late thirties clean before two cycles of M12 seemed to do me in.
There are some other possible factors but my natural test was way low (even though I did PCT) after this and never seemd to rebound.
I got on androgel and then later 200mg injection weekly from HRT doc.
My testicles never seemed to shrink though I had other problems and sides. A little gyno, perisistent pain in my left epidydimitis, fatigue and not a whole lot of weight gain even with hard training, good diet and supplementation.
After almost a year on the shots I've decided to try to come off awhile.
An older BB at the gym remarked the other day "You might just be a high-E guy, gear might just not sit right with you. Get off, stay off mate," he said.
You guys ever hear of this? A high-e person? Not respond well to juice? That would explain how this last year of 200mg of test a week has left me feeling worse than ever and not looking terribly better to boot.

[Van_Bilderass]

An older BB at the gym remarked the other day "You might just be a high-E guy, gear might just not sit right with you. Get off, stay off mate," he said.
You guys ever hear of this? A high-e person? Not respond well to juice? That would explain how this last year of 200mg of test a week has left me feeling worse than ever and not looking terribly better to boot.

That guy obviously didn't know wtf he was talking about, his way of saying "I don't know man, but sounds like you're not feeling well on whatever it is you're on, so get off".

You should be asking your doc these questions. 200mg a week isn't HRT for most. What kind of levels did you achieve with this? Did you get labs for estrogens?

[Exal]

start using an anti aromatase drug, like ATD or aromasin

[theworm]

high E guy?  he has no idea.  I believe estrogen in males just comes from aromatase with is present in fat cells mainly.  so most of the time a guy has high estrogen (and not on roids) is because they are fat and thus have high aromatase levels...

i would up the test to at least 500, and do a crap load of cardio.  oh, and go get that testicular pain looked at asap.

[Van_Bilderass]

start using an anti aromatase drug, like ATD or aromasin

Why?

i would up the test to at least 500, and do a crap load of cardio.  oh, and go get that testicular pain looked at asap.

Why should he up the test to 500? He' not feeling good at 200, is having sides such as gyno, and is attempting some type of HRT from the sounds of it.

[delta9mda]

the guy needs to adress the estro problem. adex or letro does the trick.

[Van_Bilderass]

the guy needs to adress the estro problem. adex or letro does the trick.

He doesn't feel good and doesn't grow well, does that mean he has an "estro problem"? Are you sure those drugs will make him feel better?

[Exal]

he should be using any kind of AI dosed so that he doesn't completely removes all his estrogen, but keeps it at a reasonable level, that will fix 99% of his problems

[Van_Bilderass]

he should be using any kind of AI dosed so that he doesn't completely removes all his estrogen, but keeps it at a reasonable level, that will fix 99% of his problems

Using a low dose of AI will stop the pain in his testicle, stop the fatigue, and make him gain muscle?

[tbombz]

van is right, the forget the comment of the guy in your gym.


what do you mean by fatigue, exactly?


200mg of test , while raising your test to very high, probably out normal, ranges..wont have a physique altering effect by itself. not gaining a whole lot of weight on it would make sense, especially if your eating a normal "clean" diet with about maintanence cals and protien.

high estrogen genetically probably means your better suited for gear, not worse.

[Exal]

well without blood values it's hard to say what exactly would work on him... but a good PCT regime wouldn't hurt if he has been on gear for a year non stop... get your balls checked too dude, might be cancer or some shit if they hurt alot...

If you decide to go on HRT again do it with a anti-e to keep estrogen down to normal...

[pink]

Thanks guys, good input.
I've had the testicular pain checked - an ultrasound and two urologists, four different rounds of antibiotics, nothing has helped thus far.
By fatigue I meant just an overall lethargy almost all the time.
Achy and tired, all day.
I had a hookup at the lab so checked my blood regular. A couple of times, a day or three after a shot my test level was around 1200.
A mid-week check had me at 750. My FHS and all that were low of course.
My decision to get off was because I was feeling far worse than a 40 y/o healthy male should after almost a year of 200mg of test and a c of B12 weekly. There was GH in there too - 2 IUs a day for awhile. I cant say any of it made a big difference.

I've been off everything for about a month now and I do feel better. Just taking T-Bomb II and Novadex, as directed. Zero sex drive but I dont feel all lethargic and achy all the time.
Probably need to go see an endocrinologist.

The issue is, on a HRT level, is that at 40, you have to figure you are either sticking a needle in your behind every week for the rest of your life - or trying to find a way to get your natural back to some decent level so you can function while you are off.

Thanks for all your replies, I much appreciate the helpful nature of this forum, that everyone tries to give good answers.

[jtsunami]

sometimes men with naturally high estrogen just need more test to get gains than the rest, take double.

jt

[MuscleMcMannus]

Gear non responders usually don't have a lot of unbound or "free" testosterone floating around.  It's usually bound to sex hormone binding globulin.  I know several guys who have this problem.  They've incorporated winstrol and proviron into their cycles and said both these compounds have made a difference in their gains.  Your body may just not have a lot of unbound testosterone floating around.  I'm kind of a gear non responder myself.  My test levels were sky high when I used to cycle.  But my gains were always average.  Meanwhile I had guys that would take the same dosages and same compounds as myself and literally blow the fuck up.  Physiological differences like this are what people mean when they say that guy "has great genetics".  Among other things. 

[MuscleMcMannus]

sometimes men with naturally high estrogen just need more test to get gains than the rest, take double.

jt

Doubling a dose does not equate to bigger and better gains.  Hence my comment on bound and unbound testosterone. 

[Big Rock.]

  They gave you antibiotics, does that mean they found something that required them ?  An infection of some kind ?

  Minus the pain in the nuts, you describe exactally how I feel when over-trained.  Sounds simplistic, but maybe you just need some rest.

  Also, aren't some guys just more prone to gyno, even at lower estrogen levels ?

[Van_Bilderass]

Doubling a dose does not equate to bigger and better gains.  Hence my comment on bound and unbound testosterone. 

Testosterone decreases SHBG in a dose dependent manner though.

increasing the doseage of a steroid lowers the amount of circulating shbg. 

Posting at the same time 

[jtsunami]

Doubling a dose does not equate to bigger and better gains.  Hence my comment on bound and unbound testosterone. 

I don't understand, it always has for me    At least to a point, I say anything over 5 gram you would probably not notice difference of gains, but to say increasing it doesn't give you bigger gains just doesn't make sense.  I think you thinking too much into the whole scientific part of it.

jt

[shrek]

i ve been on for a little while and my gains are not what i expected but i am also eating less to cut alot of BF% at the same time but what i have noticed is a change in structure iam loosing weight slowly but my shirts are tighter in the shoulders and arms and pants are loose in the waist but i have 4 more weeks and then PCT maybe i will continue to change slowly after the last shot

Gear non responders usually don't have a lot of unbound or "free" testosterone floating around.  It's usually bound to sex hormone binding globulin.  I know several guys who have this problem.  They've incorporated winstrol and proviron into their cycles and said both these compounds have made a difference in their gains.  Your body may just not have a lot of unbound testosterone floating around.  I'm kind of a gear non responder myself.  My test levels were sky high when I used to cycle.  But my gains were always average.  Meanwhile I had guys that would take the same dosages and same compounds as myself and literally blow the fuck up.  Physiological differences like this are what people mean when they say that guy "has great genetics".  Among other things. 

[pink]

Something I may not have noted is the goal at this point is just to get to a functionable day in -day out acceptable test level.
Not to get big or strong or ripped or any of those things - Blood tests off the test had me at anywhere from the low 200's to as low as 85 - when the lowest WNL was 350.
This from a guy in his late thirties who has never taken any juice outside of two as-directed on the bottle cycles of M1T - and doing PCT both times.

So ,yeah - obviously something's weird.
Also weird that I feel more energy and less depressed OFF of the injection test.
Maybe I would feel better and do better in the gym if I took 300-500 a week but the problem is at some point I'm going to have to come off...

Just wondering if I should go to a endocrinologist or an HRT doc at this point.

[jtsunami]

You should prolly up the dose to 500 mg if your test is that low at 200mg a week.  m1t is a prohormone, and is wicked with side effects, not really a steroid in my eyes.

jt

[MuscleMcMannus]

Something I may not have noted is the goal at this point is just to get to a functionable day in -day out acceptable test level.
Not to get big or strong or ripped or any of those things - Blood tests off the test had me at anywhere from the low 200's to as low as 85 - when the lowest WNL was 350.
This from a guy in his late thirties who has never taken any juice outside of two as-directed on the bottle cycles of M1T - and doing PCT both times.

So ,yeah - obviously something's weird.
Also weird that I feel more energy and less depressed OFF of the injection test.
Maybe I would feel better and do better in the gym if I took 300-500 a week but the problem is at some point I'm going to have to come off...

Just wondering if I should go to a endocrinologist or an HRT doc at this point.

Has the doctor tested your free vs. bound testosterone levels?  If not tell him to.  Get your SHBG tested as well. 

[Van_Bilderass]

Has the doctor tested your free vs. bound testosterone levels?  If not tell him to.  Get your SHBG tested as well. 

My guess is that it would've been below "normal" when running 200mg. I don't think he was feeling bad because he still had below normal free test. Maybe it was too much, and combined with the GH, also at above replacement levels, caused lethargy and achiness. I mean he is feeling a bit better now that he's off.

[jtsunami]

My guess is that it would've been below "normal" when running 200mg. I don't think he was feeling bad because he still had below normal free test. Maybe it was too much, and combined with the GH, also at above replacement levels, caused lethargy and achiness. I mean he is feeling a bit better now that he's off.

this man has 3 kidneys on ice baby!

[Van_Bilderass]

van high test can cause lethargy?

You mean when it's just slightly high (compared to bodybuilding dosages)? I don't know if it's common there but heavy bb test dosages can definitely cause lethargy.