I can't be bothered reading all the posts ripping in to each other but you should understand naturally there is a limit you can attain. I've seen some posts from people saying how they've only been training a few years and they can accomplish this and that in time.
After 3 years of committed training you can only expect very little muscle gains. You are training for quality and maturity at that point which will make you look bigger but bodyweight wise you arn't going anywhere much.
It's great to be against juicing but after 3 years when you are doing the same things and not improving and trying different things to improve what happens if you don't look how you want to, despite trying as hard as you can?
Plus you don't lose everything you gained when you clean out, no matter how many times you post pics of pro's not juicing, training or eating correctly, or how many times gh15 says Jay Cutler would be 160 without gear. If you keep training, it stays. Not many people will clean out and keep training and eating the same though.
