Author Topic: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...  (Read 7398 times)

The True Adonis

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2009, 09:55:12 AM »
Explain to me how you believe that this paper, which suggests that a rise in taxes contributed to the Great Depression equals "the worst economic disaster in modern History with some economists attributing to the low tax rates."

Another good paper.
Tax Cuts, Confidence, and Presidential Leadership

Date: Sep. 17, 2008


Tax Cuts, Confidence, and Presidential Leadership

Joseph J. Thorndike is a contributing editor with Tax Analysts. E-mail: jthorndi@tax.org.


* * * * *

How should a president respond to economic turmoil? Sympathy or reassurance? Confidence or concern? Occupants of the White House have usually erred on the side of optimism, while candidates for the top job have shown a penchant for gloom. So what happens when a president becomes a candidate?
Most have failed to thread the needle. Usually they end up looking out of touch (George H.W. Bush) or defeatist (Jimmy Carter), depending on their tack. And almost invariably, they go down to swift and ignoble defeat. The bully pulpit can be a poor platform for reelection.

Consider the unhappy fate of Herbert Hoover, the nation's 31st president and one of its most maligned public servants. He served a single term from 1929 to 1933 -- just long enough to preside over the darkest days of the Great Depression. While still in office, this progressive Republican -- once considered a national hero for his humanitarian work -- found himself vilified for his tepid response to the crisis. Contemporaries signaled their scorn by coining new words:

Hooverville -- one of the sprawling encampments of homeless Americans that grew up in the early thirties.
Hoover blankets -- newspapers used to cover people forced to sleep outside.
Hoover flags -- pants pockets turned inside out to signal poverty.1

Later generations were similarly unkind. In the modern political lexicon, Hoover's name has become a synonym for failure and ineptitude. Today the engineer from Iowa is best remembered for his empty optimism. "Prosperity," he famously predicted in the early days of the Depression, "is just around the corner."
Actually, the quotation is apocryphal. But it captures the essence of Hoover's rhetorical strategy. Like most incumbent politicians, he was something of a Pollyanna. He certainly made liberal use of reassuring platitudes:


"The fundamental business of the country, that is the production and distribution of commodities, is on a sound and prosperous basis."2 (October 25, 1929 -- the day after the Black Thursday stock market crash.)
"Any lack of confidence in the economic future and the basic strength of business in the United States is simply foolish. Our national capacity for hard work and intelligent cooperation is ample guaranty of the future of the United States."3 (November 15, 1929.)

"I am convinced we have now passed the worst and with continued unity of effort we shall rapidly recover."4 (May 1, 1930.)


By and large, Americans (and markets) were unconvinced. After a brief rally, Wall Street continued to sink. In fact, stock speculator Bernard E. Smith claimed that he made a fortune by selling short every time Hoover made hopeful comments about the economy.5
For all his optimism, Hoover was not some sort of modern-day Nero, fiddling while the nation was engulfed by an economic conflagration. Rather, he worked assiduously and even creatively to promote recovery. Upbeat rhetoric played a key role in this effort, but so did more tangible policy innovation, including tax reform.6

Hoover's Tax Cut

When it comes to taxes, Hoover is best remembered for the Revenue Act of 1932, the largest -- and most poorly timed -- peacetime tax increase in American history. By almost any reckoning, it made the Depression worse, not better. But in that pre-Keynesian age, most policymakers -- including Hoover -- believed that deficits were an obstacle, not a means, to recovery.7 (For more on the 1932 revenue act, see Tax Notes, Sept. 1, 2003, p. 1201, Doc 2003-19534 [PDF], or 2003 TNT 170-30 .)

The 1932 act was not, however, Hoover's first venture into tax revision. In October 1929, just a few weeks after the great stock market crash, he asked Congress to cut taxes, not raise them. If the 1932 law in retrospect seems horribly misguided and counterproductive, then the 1929 act seems more consistent with modern theories of countercyclical fiscal policy.

And in some respects, it was. The Revenue Act of 1929 was designed to promote recovery. It marked a notable foray into fiscal activism, especially for a Republican administration. But the law's mechanism for promoting recovery was hardly Keynesian. Rather, it was rooted in traditional theories of public finance -- theories emphasizing the importance of balanced budgets and fiscal rectitude, not deliberate deficits and stimulatory spending.

On October 21, 1929, Hoover signaled his intention to ask for a tax cut. Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon told lawmakers that he expected a budget surplus in each of the next two fiscal years. As a result, he suggested, Congress would have ample room to cut taxes. Ways and Means Chair Willis Hawley, R-Ore., responded warmly. "In the past," he told reporters, "each reduction in taxes has stimulated business and resulted in another surplus the subsequent year."8

Three days later, Wall Street took the first of several swoons. Mellon insisted that plans for a tax cut remained intact. It was, he implied, simply a routine refund of excess revenue to overburdened taxpayers.9


In fact, the tax cut had already become a vital element in Hoover's response to the market crash. In a series of extraordinary meetings, administration leaders and Federal Reserve officials agreed that a tax cut might promote growth by increasing private demand for goods and services. But even more important, they believed it would bolster "business confidence" -- that elusive sense within the business community that all was well with the world.

But how exactly was a tax cut supposed to boost confidence? Wasn't it a signal of worry and concern? Not for the Hoover administration. The psychological impact of the tax cut depended heavily on the personal and political reputation of Andrew Mellon. The dour Pittsburgh banker was a well-known champion of tax reduction, having orchestrated a series of sweeping tax cuts during his decade of service to GOP presidents. But he was even better known as a fiscal conservative, his party's most vigorous champion of debt reduction and balanced budgets. It was this latter element of Mellon's reputation that administration officials hoped to exploit.

Affordable or Imperative

In the weeks leading up to Hoover's budget address in early December, Mellon insisted repeatedly that tax cuts were affordable, even in the face of a market meltdown. "Our estimates indicate that the government should close both the fiscal years 1930 and 1931 with a surplus," he said in a formal statement to the press. (And in fact the government did finish 1930 with a surplus of $738 million. By 1931, however, shrinking revenues had created a deficit of $462 million.) "Taking all factors into consideration, the secretary of the Treasury, with the approval of the President, will recommend tax reduction to the Congress."10

Mellon proposed to Congress a 1 percent cut in corporate income tax rates, as well as a similar reduction in "normal" rates for individuals. (Individual taxes were then levied using both "normal" and "surtax" rates. Normal rates were designed to remain relatively low and more or less constant. Surtax rates were considerably higher, reaching 24 percent in 1929, and applied only to taxpayers in upper brackets.) For corporations, the promised cut meant a rate reduction from 12 percent to 11 percent; for individuals, rates would drop from 1.5 percent, 3 percent, and 5 percent to 0.5 percent, 2 percent, and 4 percent, respectively.

The administration implied -- and many observers agreed -- that Mellon would never countenance a tax cut in the face of an uncertain revenue stream. If the secretary was confident that revenue would remain high in the years to come, then the economy must truly be sound. "The action of the government today," wrote one reporter commenting on the tax cut, "was taken as still another means of assuring the nation that the government was satisfied that business was on such a firm basis that revenues will continue to assure a comfortable surplus."11

The president added his own voice to Mellon's message of reassurance. And he did so by denying that he was engaged in happy talk. "My own experience," he told reporters, "has been that words are of no very great importance in times of economic disturbance. It is action that counts. The action of the Federal Reserve Board in establishing credit stability, ample capital, the confidence of the administration in undertaking tax reduction, with the cooperation of both political parties, speaks a good deal stronger than any number of statements" [emphasis added].

The Hoover-Mellon tax cut, in other words, was not designed to fix economic problems, at least not directly. Rather, it was intended to minimize them, thereby boosting confidence and promoting recovery. In fact, Mellon insisted specifically that the tax cut was not a response to the market crash. It was, rather, a signal that the crash was just a passing phenomenon, a temporary detour on the path to prosperity.12

Business leaders welcomed Mellon's plan. C.B. Clark, chair of the taxation committee for the National Retail Dry Goods Association, hailed it as "a stabilizing force that comes with great timeliness for the retailer." The principal value of the tax cut was symbolic, he pointed out. "The consumer who had no stock market losses was beginning to be afraid that hard times were coming and that 'Santa Claus was dead,'" he said. "The timely and convincing statement of Secretary Mellon removes this fear that something terrible was going to happen."13

Not everyone was convinced. Carter Field, writing in The Washington Post, suggested that the tax cuts were a sign of fear, not confidence. In normal times, Mellon would never have supported a tax cut premised on a probable surplus, waiting instead for an actual surfeit. If the secretary was willing to break with tradition and act on mere projections, then the situation must truly be grim.14

Hoover's Speech

In his State of the Union message, delivered December 3, Hoover stressed the virtues of cutting taxes. "We cannot fail to recognize the obligations of the government in support of the public welfare," he declared, "but we must coincidentally bear in mind the burden of taxes and strive to find relief through some tax reduction. Every dollar so returned fertilizes the soil of prosperity."15

Like Mellon, Hoover stressed the affordability of a tax cut. "Congress will be fully justified in giving the benefits of the prospective surpluses to the taxpayers," he told lawmakers, "particularly as ample provision for debt reduction has been made in both years through the form of debt retirement from ordinary revenues."16

A few days later, tax cut supporters mounted a rally on the Capitol steps. Speakers included film and radio stars, as well as civic leaders from around the nation. Actress Mae Murray (famous for her role in the Ziegfield Follies and later as a contract star for MGM) presented lawmakers with signed petitions in support of the Hoover cuts. Murray's former costar, comedian Ed Wynn, was also on hand to lend his support. (Wynn is best known to modern moviegoers as Uncle Albert in Mary Poppins, but he was a major radio star of the late 1920s.) "I feel like a piece of carpet, I am so kept down by taxes," Wynn told reporters at the rally.17

Inside the Capitol, the Hoover-Mellon plan was well received. Republicans were broadly supportive, and even many Democrats signed on. Like many of his party colleagues, Sen. David Walsh, D-Mass., promised to support the tax cut. "Apparently it will have a desirable psychological effect upon the business public," he said, "now somewhat disconcerted and apprehensive by reason of the collapse of the stock market."18

Sen. James Couzens, a maverick Republican from Michigan, offered similar thoughts. "On the basis of the merits of the joint resolution, I would be unalterably opposed to it," he acknowledged, "but based on this indeterminate psychology, I hesitate to put my judgment against the judgment of any others who claim it will have a great psychological effect."19

But at least one lawmaker balked. Sen. George Norris, R-Neb., ridiculed psychological arguments for the cut. Perhaps the government should fire its fiscal experts and replace them with psychologists, he suggested wryly: "They ought even to discharge the Senate chaplain and hire a psychologist to lecture to us instead of having a preacher to pray to us."20

Such skepticism fell on deaf ears, and both houses soon passed Hoover's tax cut without major changes. But of course it had no discernible effect on the economy. And as revenues began to shrink, Hoover and Mellon -- both fiscal conservatives to the core -- decided that deficits were the most serious threat to business confidence. Where once they had placed their faith in rosy assessments of the economy, they soon offered steely resolve instead. Beginning in late 1930, both began agitating for a tax hike.

Still, Hoover's tax cut is worth remembering for at least two reasons. First, it underscores the dilemma facing incumbent presidents (or the candidates of incumbent parties, like Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.). As they walk the tightrope between concern and confidence, it's easy to overemphasize the latter. Hoover was not the first president to make that mistake, and he almost certainly won't be the last. It may even be an occupational hazard.

Historically, Hoover's 1929 experiment in confidence-building is important to reviving his reputation -- which remains in tatters with the public, if not with historians. Hoover was a fascinating and creative politician. Indeed, some modern-day conservatives revile him as a proto-New Dealer, indulging in some of the same governmental activism that Roosevelt embraced in the 1930s. He was not, to be sure, a good president; among other things, he was a hopeless communicator in an age that needed a great one. But he was not a do-nothing president. And that's worth remembering.


FOOTNOTES

1 Examples drawn from Michael E. Parrish, Anxious Decades (New York: W.W. Norton, 1992), p. 240.
2 John T. Woolley and Gerhard Peters, The American Presidency Project [online]. Santa Barbara, CA: University of California, available at http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=21979.

3 John T. Woolley and Gerhard Peters, The American Presidency Project [online]. Santa Barbara, CA: University of California, available at http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=22005.

4 John T. Woolley and Gerhard Peters, The American Presidency Project [online]. Santa Barbara, CA: University of California, available at http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=22185.

5 Parrish, Anxious Decades, note 1 supra.

6 Over the last 30 years, historians have tried to revive Hoover's reputation, giving him credit for good intentions, if not effective performance. For one of the more influential assessments of his presidency, see Joan Hoff Wilson, Herbert Hoover: Forgotten Progressive (Boston: Little Brown, 1975).

7 E. Cary Brown, "Fiscal Policy in the Thirties: A Reappraisal," American Economic Review 46 (1956).

8 "Federal Taxes Due for Slash," Los Angeles Times, Oct. 22, 1929, p. 3.

9 "Treasury Officials Blame Speculation," The New York Times, Oct. 25, 1929, p. 1.

10 Arthur Crawford, "Unite on 160 Million Tax Cut," Chicago Daily Tribune, Nov. 14, 1929, p. 1. Surplus and deficit figures from Office of Management and Budget, Historical Tables, Budget of the United States Government for Fiscal Year 2009 (Washington: Executive Office of the President, Office of Management and Budget, 2008), p. 21.

11 "Mellon Outlines Plan," The New York Times, Nov. 14, 1929, p. 1.

12 "Cut in Tax Under Way," Los Angeles Times, Nov. 15, 1929, p. 1.

13 "Tax Cut Welcomed by Retail Expert," The New York Times, Nov. 17, 1929, p. N6.

14 Carter Field, "Tax Cut Prophecy Seen as 'Lifeline' to Administration," The Washington Post, Nov. 17, 1929, p. M15.

15 John T. Woolley and Gerhard Peters, The American Presidency Project [online]. Santa Barbara, CA: University of California, available at http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=22021.

16 Id.

17 "Parade for Tax Cuts," The New York Times, Dec. 8, 1929, p. 20.

18 "Predicts the House Will Speed Tax Cut," The New York Times, Nov. 16, 1929, p. 1.

19 "Senate Votes Big Tax Cuts," The New York Times, Dec. 15, 1929, p. 1.

20 Id.

240 is Back

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2009, 09:58:56 AM »
If memory serves, Clinton did no inherit a recession.  There was a recession during Bush 1 but I believe it ended prior to Clinton.
Nevertheless, for the next several years high unemployment, massive government budgetary deficits, and slow Gross Domestic Product (GDP) growth affected the United States until late 1992

WIKi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1990s_recession

Saxon

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #77 on: April 05, 2009, 10:00:10 AM »
That hasn't explained to me why you think these two economists believe low taxes contributed to the Great Depression when their paper implies that it was the implementation of the cheque tax that contributed to the Great Depression.

The True Adonis

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #78 on: April 05, 2009, 10:03:04 AM »
That hasn't explained to me why you think these two economists believe low taxes contributed to the Great Depression when their paper implies that it was the implementation of the cheque tax that contributed to the Great Depression.
The Check Tax  was just another dismal element of Hoover`s Overall Tax Policy. If you are signed up with JSTOR you can access all of their papers regarding Hoover and his failed tax policies. 

The True Adonis

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #79 on: April 05, 2009, 10:04:40 AM »
That hasn't explained to me why you think these two economists believe low taxes contributed to the Great Depression when their paper implies that it was the implementation of the cheque tax that contributed to the Great Depression.
Also be sure to click on these as they will provide you with some insight as to Hoover`s shortcomings.
1 Examples drawn from Michael E. Parrish, Anxious Decades (New York: W.W. Norton, 1992), p. 240.
2 John T. Woolley and Gerhard Peters, The American Presidency Project [online]. Santa Barbara, CA: University of California, available at http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=21979.

3 John T. Woolley and Gerhard Peters, The American Presidency Project [online]. Santa Barbara, CA: University of California, available at http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=22005.

4 John T. Woolley and Gerhard Peters, The American Presidency Project [online]. Santa Barbara, CA: University of California, available at http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=22185.

5 Parrish, Anxious Decades, note 1 supra.

6 Over the last 30 years, historians have tried to revive Hoover's reputation, giving him credit for good intentions, if not effective performance. For one of the more influential assessments of his presidency, see Joan Hoff Wilson, Herbert Hoover: Forgotten Progressive (Boston: Little Brown, 1975).

7 E. Cary Brown, "Fiscal Policy in the Thirties: A Reappraisal," American Economic Review 46 (1956).

8 "Federal Taxes Due for Slash," Los Angeles Times, Oct. 22, 1929, p. 3.

9 "Treasury Officials Blame Speculation," The New York Times, Oct. 25, 1929, p. 1.

10 Arthur Crawford, "Unite on 160 Million Tax Cut," Chicago Daily Tribune, Nov. 14, 1929, p. 1. Surplus and deficit figures from Office of Management and Budget, Historical Tables, Budget of the United States Government for Fiscal Year 2009 (Washington: Executive Office of the President, Office of Management and Budget, 2008), p. 21.

11 "Mellon Outlines Plan," The New York Times, Nov. 14, 1929, p. 1.

12 "Cut in Tax Under Way," Los Angeles Times, Nov. 15, 1929, p. 1.

13 "Tax Cut Welcomed by Retail Expert," The New York Times, Nov. 17, 1929, p. N6.

14 Carter Field, "Tax Cut Prophecy Seen as 'Lifeline' to Administration," The Washington Post, Nov. 17, 1929, p. M15.

15 John T. Woolley and Gerhard Peters, The American Presidency Project [online]. Santa Barbara, CA: University of California, available at http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=22021.

16 Id.

17 "Parade for Tax Cuts," The New York Times, Dec. 8, 1929, p. 20.

18 "Predicts the House Will Speed Tax Cut," The New York Times, Nov. 16, 1929, p. 1.

19 "Senate Votes Big Tax Cuts," The New York Times, Dec. 15, 1929, p. 1.

20 Id.

Veteran_Lifter

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #80 on: April 05, 2009, 10:11:21 AM »
The chosen will use their dark hounds to ruin the U.S

240, you need a kick up the ass; riots are exactly what the chosen who run the Fed do NOT want to happen; riots that might end with their fractional reserve house of cards crashing down in the midst of 100 million pissed off whites is the last thing they want.

So they bail THEMSELVES out [after ROBBING YOU] with who's money? they bail themselves out with YOUR money, knowing full well that by fucking you assways by stealth is a safe bet because -  due to your seemingly infinite stupidity - you will never riot in response [to a spoon fed bail out]... goyim scum that you are.

You stupid cunt, like I said before, what is sitting on the horizion for your kids is a nightmare the likes of Coach and yourself both fully deserve, say hi to you brown grand kids, I only hope you live long enough to see them fully consumed by the enjolyment they will derive from mowing the lawn of their local La Raza rep.

Shit stirring chosen, and their begging bowl 'blame whitey' pets treat you with the contempt you deserve.



BTW TA, please dont make me show you up again as the Googling fuckwit you so clearly are re: your ignorance of communsim, sociallism and the comparative dynamics therein.

Yours is quite the fuckin parasitic, bat faced mongolid life indeed.

Wanker.

theworm

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #81 on: April 05, 2009, 10:12:08 AM »
That is not Socialism. That is a broken tax system.  Furthermore, all Obama is doing is moving the tax level up 3 percent on the top 4 percent of Americans, which you are not a part of.

Also, under Eisenhower, Taxes for the highest earners were giving 91 percent of income.  This also happens to be the biggest peace time growth in history.

My own feeling of taxes are more of a Scandinavian model where a National Sales tax on all new goods is implemented.  Used goods, food and shelter being free from tax.  23 percent on all items.  That is true Socialist tax plan in my opinion.

How do you know this??  In fact, I am...Search the old squadfather threads, I even posted my license.  I am salaried at 250k, and with Obama in, he proposes a tax hike nearly approaching the 50% mark.  but thats not the big issue, he also wants to take a cap off of social security (not just up to 102K).  All this stems to around them taking 60-65% in taxes!  rediculous!
you are gay.

Saxon

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #82 on: April 05, 2009, 10:14:06 AM »
The Check Tax  was just another dismal element of Hoover`s Overall Tax Policy. If you are signed up with JSTOR you can access all of their papers regarding Hoover and his failed tax policies. 

So where do they say that low taxes contributed to "the worst economic disaster in modern History"?  I mean, I studied economics for 6 years, have a masters degree in economics, worked as an economist and still keep an interest in the subject but have yet to hear anyone say that the great depression was caused by low taxes.  Makes no sense theoretically or empirically.


The True Adonis

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #83 on: April 05, 2009, 10:17:28 AM »
How do you know this??  In fact, I am...Search the old squadfather threads, I even posted my license.  I am salaried at 250k, and with Obama in, he proposes a tax hike nearly approaching the 50% mark.  but thats not the big issue, he also wants to take a cap off of social security (not just up to 102K).  All this stems to around them taking 60-65% in taxes!  rediculous!
Um. The highest rate is 39.6 percent.


How is 39.6 percent magically turned into 50-60-65 percent?   Bush was just 3 percent lower on the top earners.  Ronald Reagan was the last President to have a tax rate of over 50 percent for the top earners.  Isn`t Reagan supposed to be one of your Republican Tax Heroes.  Isn`t it a bit ironic? :)



nodeal

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2009, 10:20:32 AM »
Adonis I'm surprised it took you till the third page to respond.

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #85 on: April 05, 2009, 10:23:47 AM »
dipshit, read the entire post...

ok, taxes approach 40 some percent, then take the tax off SSI, and anyone making a few hundred grand, taxes then approach 60%... I could explain this, but you would just google up some other bullshit... you remind me a lot of tbomz...  try to appear smart by just googling shit...
you are gay.

The True Adonis

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #86 on: April 05, 2009, 10:28:58 AM »
So where do they say that low taxes contributed to "the worst economic disaster in modern History"?  I mean, I studied economics for 6 years, have a masters degree in economics, worked as an economist and still keep an interest in the subject but have yet to hear anyone say that the great depression was caused by low taxes.  Makes no sense theoretically or empirically.



Inequality of wealth distribution due to taxation rates is a frequent cause I see related to a cause in The Great Depression.

I believe the entire study of economics to be hinged on the Tinkerbell Effect.  Of course that is my own objectiveness on the subject.

The True Adonis

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #87 on: April 05, 2009, 10:32:15 AM »
Adonis I'm surprised it took you till the third page to respond.
I really did not want to respond at all because the whole discussion is hackneyed and superfluous as there is too much literature to contend with regarding these type of topics.  This thread would need to be at least 1 million replies long to even cover less than 1 percent of the subject matter at hand.



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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2009, 10:34:18 AM »
Taxes suck; you should be able to keep what you earn.
I hate the State.

The True Adonis

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #89 on: April 05, 2009, 10:35:17 AM »
dipshit, read the entire post...

ok, taxes approach 40 some percent, then take the tax off SSI, and anyone making a few hundred grand, taxes then approach 60%... I could explain this, but you would just google up some other bullshit... you remind me a lot of tbomz...  try to appear smart by just googling shit...
Explain it to me.  Where is the SSI tax and what is it.  I admit, the tax code is too big for any one human to understand it.  There is not a single person alive that can interpret or knows the entire tax code.  It is billions of pages.

But, Federal Tax rates are 39.6 percent at their highest, so the Federal rate is not changing much at all.  It sounds like you have a problem perhaps with your state taxes.

If not, please explain.  I am willing to listen.

The True Adonis

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #90 on: April 05, 2009, 10:40:08 AM »
dipshit, read the entire post...

ok, taxes approach 40 some percent, then take the tax off SSI, and anyone making a few hundred grand, taxes then approach 60%... I could explain this, but you would just google up some other bullshit... you remind me a lot of tbomz...  try to appear smart by just googling shit...
Here is what I was able to find on SSI:
http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=215&p_created=956064531

What is the Social Security tax (AKA FICA) rate?

    Answer
    
The 2009 contribution rate, also known as the FICA tax rate, is 7.65% for employees and 15.30% for self-employed people. The rates are broken out as follows:

6.2% (Social Security portion) on earnings up to the maximum taxable amount ($106,800 in 2009)
1.45% (Medicare portion) on all earnings.
The maximum Social Security tax withheld in 2009 is $6,621.60.

Set by law, these rates haven't changed since 1990.

Maximum Earnings Taxable
Program   2007   2008   2009
Social Security   
$97,500

$102,000

$106,800

Medicare   No Limit for any year after 1993

nodeal

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #91 on: April 05, 2009, 10:53:56 AM »
I really did not want to respond at all because the whole discussion is hackneyed and superfluous as there is too much literature to contend with regarding these type of topics.  This thread would need to be at least 1 million replies long to even cover less than 1 percent of the subject matter at hand.




well thanks for spicing things up you socialist!  ;D

theworm

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #92 on: April 05, 2009, 12:38:04 PM »
SSI taxes:  15% for me since i am self employed...
currently the most they can take out of my income is around 15,000.  the cap is 102,000.  however, Obama wants to get rid of the cap, and say a physician makes 300,000, then thats 45,000 in taxes just to social security, which is close to 16% for you entire income!  not just limited to 102k.  so combine the 40 some percent to an additional 15, and we are looking at 55% of total income going to Obama!

so i would be working from January to August JUST to cover taxes...ie. All my income for more than half the year will go 100% to the government.  my arguement, is let me just give 30%

also, Obama also proposed that anyone making over 250k, taxes could go up even higher, approaching 50%, so then combine that with SSI, and there could be a risk of 65% of my total income going to the government.  sounds pretty fucked up to me.
you are gay.

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2009, 12:39:04 PM »
SSI taxes:  15% for me since i am self employed...
currently the most they can take out of my income is around 15,000.  the cap is 102,000.  however, Obama wants to get rid of the cap, and say a physician makes 300,000, then thats 45,000 in taxes just to social security, which is close to 16% for you entire income!  not just limited to 102k.  so combine the 40 some percent to an additional 15, and we are looking at 55% of total income going to Obama!

so i would be working from January to August JUST to cover taxes...ie. All my income for more than half the year will go 100% to the government.  my arguement, is let me just give 30%

also, Obama also proposed that anyone making over 250k, taxes could go up even higher, approaching 50%, so then combine that with SSI, and there could be a risk of 65% of my total income going to the government.  sounds pretty fucked up to me.
Uh,

The maximum Social Security tax withheld in 2009 is $6,621.60

theworm

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #94 on: April 05, 2009, 01:34:19 PM »
Uh,

The maximum Social Security tax withheld in 2009 is $6,621.60

listen up man.  That was the max, but they are PROPOSING (that means it hasn't been done yet, but may in the near future) taking the cap off.  if they take the cap off, up, up, up goes the taxes for people making over 100K. 
you are gay.

theworm

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #95 on: April 05, 2009, 01:41:29 PM »
Caps Off For Obama
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY

Entitlement Reform: Barack Obama wants to eliminate the earnings cap on income to save the Social Security system. His plan would only hurt the people in it and damage the economy that supports it.

It's no surprise that a liberal Democrat like Barack Obama would want to fix a problem like Social Security by raising taxes on the rich. Except, when liberals aim for the rich, they hit Joe Sixpack right between the eyes while they make the problem worse.

In an op-ed published Friday in the Quad City Times, the former state legislator and freshman U.S. senator proposed eliminating the earnings cap on Social Security taxes, now set at the first $97,500 of income, saying that by doing so "we could virtually eliminate the entire Social Security shortfall."

Well, a recent report from the Social Security Administration examined the effects of doing just that. The SSA's actuarial study found that eliminating the cap entirely would postpone the arrival of Social Security's deficits by all of six years.

Obama says the "projected cash shortfall over the next 75 years is relatively small and can be readily solved," suggesting that this is not the person we want holding the nation's wallet.

The Heritage Foundation estimates that Social Security will have an unfunded liability over the next 75 years of more than $27 trillion (that's with a "t," Barack) in 2003 dollars. Small change for a liberal.

Lost in Obama's calculations is that many of the people who would be affected by eliminating the earnings cap are small-business owners who employ more than half the nonfarm private-sector work force and create two of every three new jobs in this country.

The self-employed would be subject to a double whammy, since they pay both the employee and employer portion of the payroll tax.

Small businesses and individual entrepreneurs are the driving force of rapid innovation and economic growth in this country. At least 55% of them file their taxes as individuals.

When government increases their taxes, fewer workers get hired, fewer workers get raises, fewer workers have health insurance, more workers get laid off and consumers pay higher prices.

Earlier this year, the Heritage Foundation analyzed the effect of eliminating the earnings cap. The think tank found that in the first year alone, the take-home pay of 10.3 million workers would be reduced by an average $5,650. Taxes would be raised on 4 million workers over the age of 50.

Taxes would also be raised on 3 million small-business owners. By fiscal 2015, the number of job opportunities lost would exceed 865,000 and personal savings would decline by more than $55 billion.

And if you think this would raise taxes only on the "rich," think again. According to Heritage, taxes would be raised for 97,065 carpenters, 110,908 police officers, 254,992 nurses, 208,562 post-secondary teachers and 237,000 dentists.

Eliminating the earnings cap would raise taxes for many middle-class families, impose a huge burden on small business, slow the economy and cost jobs. You don't help the people riding the wagon by punishing the people pulling it.

In the same piece, Obama says he will "fight against efforts to privatize Social Security," even though personal retirement accounts would be the real solution to retirement security and could be black America's ticket to the American dream. They'd be the greatest anti-poverty program ever devised, letting the poor and minorities accumulate wealth that would not die with them but could be passed on to their heirs.

Obama's plan would be the final step in turning Social Security from a safety net to a wealth-distribution scheme. He says that "we have always believed that a lifetime of hard work and honest living should be rewarded with a secure and dignified retirement."

With other people's money? How about rewarding a lifetime of hard work by letting people keep the money they've earned?

you are gay.

Decker

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #96 on: April 05, 2009, 07:33:21 PM »
Caps Off For Obama
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY

Entitlement Reform: Barack Obama wants to eliminate the earnings cap on income to save the Social Security system. His plan would only hurt the people in it and damage the economy that supports it.
I don’t think so.  Ensuring that the social safety net stays strong only helps this country.

Quote
It's no surprise that a liberal Democrat like Barack Obama would want to fix a problem like Social Security by raising taxes on the rich. Except, when liberals aim for the rich, they hit Joe Sixpack right between the eyes while they make the problem worse.
Social Security’s wage base for 2009 is $106,800 – per person.  Joe Sixpack makes about $29,000.00 (The overall median income for all 155 million persons over the age of 15 who worked with earnings in 2005 was $28,567.)

Quote
In an op-ed published Friday in the Quad City Times, the former state legislator and freshman U.S. senator proposed eliminating the earnings cap on Social Security taxes, now set at the first $97,500 of income, saying that by doing so "we could virtually eliminate the entire Social Security shortfall."

Well, a recent report from the Social Security Administration examined the effects of doing just that. The SSA's actuarial study found that eliminating the cap entirely would postpone the arrival of Social Security's deficits by all of six years.
Removing the wage base cap would eliminate any shortfall.  Why?  The paper cited employs an extremely pessimistic 1.7% rate of growth for all years covered in the study.  The CBO did the same study at a more modest rate of growth and the shortfall was eliminated.
Even accepting the 1.7% rate as gospel, an adjustment to the benefit formula will make up the difference.  Alternatively a modest benefit cut would accomplish the same thing.


Quote
Obama says the "projected cash shortfall over the next 75 years is relatively small and can be readily solved," suggesting that this is not the person we want holding the nation's wallet.

The Heritage Foundation estimates that Social Security will have an unfunded liability over the next 75 years of more than $27 trillion (that's with a "t," Barack) in 2003 dollars. Small change for a liberal.
More useless shit from the Heritage Foundation.  “unfunded liability”. .  . what a crock of shit.
If the government does absolutely nothing to social security, it will still pay all of its benefits fully until 2042 and 75% thereafter.


Quote
Lost in Obama's calculations is that many of the people who would be affected by eliminating the earnings cap are small-business owners who employ more than half the nonfarm private-sector work force and create two of every three new jobs in this country.

The self-employed would be subject to a double whammy, since they pay both the employee and employer portion of the payroll tax.

Small businesses and individual entrepreneurs are the driving force of rapid innovation and economic growth in this country. At least 55% of them file their taxes as individuals.

When government increases their taxes, fewer workers get hired, fewer workers get raises, fewer workers have health insurance, more workers get laid off and consumers pay higher prices.
Anyone earning over $106,800 will see a very modest increase in taxes.

Quote
Earlier this year, the Heritage Foundation analyzed the effect of eliminating the earnings cap. The think tank found that in the first year alone, the take-home pay of 10.3 million workers would be reduced by an average $5,650. Taxes would be raised on 4 million workers over the age of 50.
Those are 10.3 million people earning approximately 3 times what the average worker earns.  Good for them I say.


Quote
Taxes would also be raised on 3 million small-business owners. By fiscal 2015, the number of job opportunities lost would exceed 865,000 and personal savings would decline by more than $55 billion.
Those are 3 million people earning approximately 4-5 times what the average worker earns.  Good for them I say.

Quote
And if you think this would raise taxes only on the "rich," think again. According to Heritage, taxes would be raised for 97,065 carpenters, 110,908 police officers, 254,992 nurses, 208,562 post-secondary teachers and 237,000 dentists.

Eliminating the earnings cap would raise taxes for many middle-class families, impose a huge burden on small business, slow the economy and cost jobs. You don't help the people riding the wagon by punishing the people pulling it.
Wrong.  Most middle class families earn a household income of $50,233.00

(In 2007, the median annual household income rose 1.3% to $50,233.00 according to the Census Bureau.)
How does a tax increase for dollars earned after $106,800 change the tax burden of the average American household?  It doesn’t.


Quote
In the same piece, Obama says he will "fight against efforts to privatize Social Security," even though personal retirement accounts would be the real solution to retirement security and could be black America's ticket to the American dream. They'd be the greatest anti-poverty program ever devised, letting the poor and minorities accumulate wealth that would not die with them but could be passed on to their heirs.
Here we go again.  Privatization helps the brokers of wall street and hurts everyone else.  Soc. Sec. is social insurance…not a wealth creating system.  All privatization schemes are garbage.  All of them.  They never add up.  The sure way to kill social security is to privatize it.

Oh yeah, we already have a system of private accounts for retirement, they’re called IRAs.

And don't worry about the 'heirs' of SS.  The author of this article never heard of beneficiaries.

Quote
Obama's plan would be the final step in turning Social Security from a safety net to a wealth-distribution scheme. He says that "we have always believed that a lifetime of hard work and honest living should be rewarded with a secure and dignified retirement."

With other people's money? How about rewarding a lifetime of hard work by letting people keep the money they've earned?
An article rife with errors and misstatements also concludes with an appeal to the selfish impulse.  What a shock.  All rightwing politics can be broken down to the Fredo Corleone worldview:

There was something in it for me, Mikey…

theworm

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #97 on: April 06, 2009, 06:51:44 AM »
even the social security administration said removing the cap would only delay bankruptcy by 6 years!   

yeah, thats a sure fix!
you are gay.

Decker

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #98 on: April 06, 2009, 08:57:42 AM »
even the social security administration said removing the cap would only delay bankruptcy by 6 years!   

yeah, thats a sure fix!
The SSA did not say anything about bankruptcy.  The controversy involves a shortfall in benefits paid, not the bankruptcy of the entire system.

Removing the cap on the wage base is a total solution if the economy grows at a normal rate.  Otherwise if the economy performs less than expected over the years, removing the cap is still an extremely sound step toward full payment of the benefits.

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Re: Socialism - Good on Paper, Not in Reality...
« Reply #99 on: April 06, 2009, 09:02:52 AM »
I have to wonder political party Jesus would join.


Dems: Anti-war.  All about helping the poor.  Welfare - Jesus did give a whole lotta bread and fish to the hungry.

Repubs: Start pre-emptive wars and 'acquire' another nations resources.  Jesus didn't steal.


Neither.