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mogulgangi
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« on: April 08, 2009, 10:43:30 AM »

Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Within liberalism, there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term "liberal" and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for constitutional liberalism, which encompasses support for: freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual's right to private property,[2] and a transparent system of government.[3][4][5]







why do u always judge people........




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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2009, 10:45:41 AM »

Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Within liberalism, there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term "liberal" and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for constitutional liberalism, which encompasses support for: freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual's right to private property,[2] and a transparent system of government.[3][4][5]







why do u always judge people........






You mean why do they do just the opposite?
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2009, 11:06:34 AM »

Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Within liberalism, there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term "liberal" and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for constitutional liberalism, which encompasses support for: freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual's right to private property,[2] and a transparent system of government.[3][4][5]


Where did you get this definition? 
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2009, 11:13:13 AM »

Where did you get this definition? 
Perhaps wikipedia.
Regardless, this definition is correct.
Any political scholar will tell you this.
Google 'adam smith' and liberalism.
Should give you a good idea of what it really is.
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2009, 11:23:13 AM »

Perhaps wikipedia.
Regardless, this definition is correct.
Any political scholar will tell you this.
Google 'adam smith' and liberalism.
Should give you a good idea of what it really is.
So why is the word now associated with people who are overly concerned with the rights and civil liberties of criminals and terrorists, support policies of distributing wealth from hard working successful people to the unaccomplished and unmotivated, argue that a discrimatory justice system is responsible for the high demographics of certain ethnicities in prison, and actually want government to strengthen it's control over business and the private sector thus interfering with natural competiton etc. Doesn't sound like the definiton previously stated above.
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2009, 11:28:40 AM »

So why is the word now associated with people who are overly concerned with the rights and civil liberties of criminals and terrorists, support policies of distributing wealth from hard working successful people to the unaccomplished and unmotivated, argue that a discrimatory justice system is responsible for the high demographics of certain ethnicities in prison, and actually want government to strengthen it's control over business and the private sector thus interfering with natural competiton etc. Doesn't sound like the definiton previously stated above.

Liberals care about one right and one right only :  ABORTION

Other than that, they are mostly Nanny State marxists.
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2009, 11:41:59 AM »

So why is the word now associated with people who are overly concerned with the rights and civil liberties of criminals and terrorists, support policies of distributing wealth from hard working successful people to the unaccomplished and unmotivated, argue that a discrimatory justice system is responsible for the high demographics of certain ethnicities in prison, and actually want government to strengthen it's control over business and the private sector thus interfering with natural competiton etc. Doesn't sound like the definiton previously stated above.

Don't forget the "Fairness Doctrine"

freedom of thought and speech,






Perhaps wikipedia.
Regardless, this definition is correct.
Any political scholar will tell you this.
Google 'adam smith' and liberalism.
Should give you a good idea of what it really is.

OK I did, thanks.  The following is from wikipedia. 


Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1], laissez-faire liberalism[2], and market liberalism[3] or, outside the United States and Britain, sometimes simply liberalism[citation needed]) is a doctrine stressing individual freedom, free markets, and limited government.

This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, individual freedom from restraint, equality under the law, constitutional limitation of government, free markets, and a gold standard to place fiscal constraints on government[4] as exemplified in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, David Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu and others. As such, it is the fusion of economic liberalism with political liberalism of the late 18th and 19th centuries.[2]

The "normative core" of classical liberalism is the idea that laissez-faire economics will bring about a spontaneous order or invisible hand that benefits the society,[5] though it does not necessarily oppose the state's provision of some basic public goods with what constitutes public goods being seen as very limited.[6] The qualification classical was applied retroactively to distinguish it from more recent, 20th-century conceptions of liberalism and its related movements, such as social liberalism.[7] Classical liberals are suspicious of all but the most minimal government[8] and object to the welfare state[9].


Hedge, you do feel that the current administration's actions demonstrate "Classic Liberalism?
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2009, 12:19:45 PM »

im loving these posts...keep em up


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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2009, 12:41:50 PM »

rush limbaugh, Hannity, Ann Coulter, on and on...

Wrong 100% Hugo.  They respond to the statements and insanities put forth by the mentally disordered "liberals" who care more about the rights of terrorists bent on our destruction than anything else.

Liberals want equality, not freedom.

There is a huge difference.  Everyone agrees with equality under the eyes of the law, but liberals want equality of outcome and to punish anyone doing better than anyone else.

 

 
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2009, 01:46:55 PM »

Wrong 100% Hugo.  They respond to the statements and insanities put forth by the mentally disordered "liberals" who care more about the rights of terrorists bent on our destruction than anything else.


How can someone who is clinically insane make comments about so called mentally disordered "liberals"?
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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2009, 01:48:13 PM »


Hedge, you do feel that the current administration's actions demonstrate "Classic Liberalism?
What gave you that idea? Huh

I don't use the term liberal all that much.
The reason is because I believe all politicians have a foundation in liberalism (the classic one).
Because modern democracy is intimately associated with liberalism.
Then of course within the realms of democracy there are plenty of political ideologies.

So yes, I would consider Obama a liberal. Just as I consider Palin, Pat Buchanan liberals as well to some degree.
  Lets look at Bush. People claim he's a 'neo-conservative'.
Notice the prefix 'neo'.
It really means he's liberal on some issues.
Eg, Bush wanted free trade and was big on deregulation - classic Liberalism traits.

Obama is anti-torture which is definitely a Liberal POV.
The rights of an individual are sacred in Liberalism.
On some other issues he is not so liberal - interfering in the banks and the car industry.   
 
But our whole system is based on Liberalism - that's what got Democracy going in the 18th century.
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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2009, 01:49:55 PM »

How can someone who is clinically insane make comments about so called mentally disordered "liberals"?

Its Michael Savages' coined phrase, not my own. 

BTW - it amazing that a clinically insane person like myself can have made it through graduate school and own two businesses.
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2009, 01:59:09 PM »

Its Michael Savages' coined phrase, not my own. 

BTW - it amazing that a clinically insane person like myself can have made it through graduate school and own two businesses.

Don't flatter yourself.  Unlike you I don't make blanket statements about people because of their party affiliations.  I was specifically referring to Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage and Sean Hannity.
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2009, 02:02:44 PM »

Don't flatter yourself.  Unlike you I don't make blanket statements about people because of their party affiliations.  I was specifically referring to Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage and Sean Hannity.

Ok, how about this if you want me to be more exact?

Every liberal I personally have ever met has only been concerned with abortion rights and gay rights and completely disregards the 2nd amendment, economic freedom and freedom of speech?
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2009, 02:06:04 PM »

2nd amendment, economic freedom and freedom of speech?
You support those three things?
How then are you not a liberal?
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2009, 02:07:08 PM »

Thanks Stellla..CLASSICAL LIBERALISM.
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2009, 02:09:07 PM »

You support those three things?
How then are you not a liberal?

I am a libertarian by and large and a classic liberal.

The modern use of the word "liberal" connotes something drastically different.   
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2009, 02:09:18 PM »

Ok, how about this if you want me to be more exact?

Every liberal I personally have ever met has only been concerned with abortion rights and gay rights and completely disregards the 2nd amendment, economic freedom and freedom of speech?

That's fine, but your logic is still completely fouled.  Lets put it this way.  If say, every black person you had ever met happened to be a criminal, law breaking, wife beating thug, could you by the very same logic you use, conclude all black people are criminals?

No sane person could come to that conclusion, see the point?  While the liberals you've met through your walk in life may have all shared those same priorities, not every liberal does.  I've met some liberals who share many of the same things conservatives do such as smaller government, gun issues, and even abortion.  I'm a libertarian and I do have some conservative and liberal viewpoints, but mainly I am loyal to the libertarian idea, not the party or those that represent it.
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2009, 02:15:41 PM »

That's fine, but your logic is still completely fouled.  Lets put it this way.  If say, every black person you had ever met happened to be a criminal, law breaking, wife beating thug, could you by the very same logic you use, conclude all black people are criminals?

No sane person could come to that conclusion, see the point?  While the liberals you've met through your walk in life may have all shared those same priorities, not every liberal does.  I've met some liberals who share many of the same things conservatives do such as smaller government, gun issues, and even abortion.  I'm a libertarian and I do have some conservative and liberal viewpoints, but mainly I am loyal to the libertarian idea, not the party or those that represent it.

Needless to say, those most associated with being "liberals" in the modern sense, like Kerry, Pelosi, Obama, B. Frank, etc fit the mold I described by what they themselves profess.

If they believe something different, they certainly dont say so.

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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2009, 02:31:32 PM »

I am a libertarian by and large and a classic liberal.

The modern use of the word "liberal" connotes something drastically different.   

Yet you thank god that your ancestors left europe...the birthplace of classic liberalism

strange
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2009, 02:39:58 PM »

Yet you thank god that your ancestors left europe...the birthplace of classic liberalism

strange

And look what Europe has turned into. 

Consistent 10% or better unemployment, persistent welfare class, low or zero birth rate, muslim invasion and men who look like and resemble little girls.

The Uk is a hell of a lot better than continental Europe.

   
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2009, 02:41:47 PM »

What gave you that idea? Huh



Sorry, Hedge, I meant to say  "Do you" to ask a question not "You do" ...and you answered my question.


In the wiki link that I looked at on Adam Smith and liberalism, it also commented on "Social Liberalism," which I think is more along the lines of this administration. 





Here is a comment from that link on Social Liberalism

"social liberalism (also called modern liberalism or welfare liberalism) holds that individuals have a right to be provided with certain benefits or services by others.[26] Unlike social liberals, classical liberals are "hostile to the welfare state."[9] They do not have an interest in material equality but only in "equality before the law."[27] Classical liberalism is critical of social liberalism and takes offense at group rights being pursued at the expense of individual rights.[28]"

And more from the Social Liberalism wiki page:

Social liberalism is a political position that supports heavier regulation of the economy and more welfare than other types of liberalism, particularly classical liberalism. Moreover, social liberals consider the accumulation of wealth and power by a small group as a threat to liberty.[1][2]

Social liberalism replaced classical liberalism as the dominant ideology in much of the world, from the late nineteenth century onwards, although there was a resurgence of classical liberal ideology in the late 20th century.[3] Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centrist[4][5] or centre-left[6][7][8].

Social liberalism is also called new liberalism[nb 1][9] (as it was originally termed), contemporary liberalism,[10] welfare liberalism,[11] high liberalism,[12] radical liberalism,[13] modern liberalism,[14] revisionist liberalism,[15] left-liberalism,[16] or simply liberalism.



Very interesting, thanks for the google suggestion.
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2009, 03:08:14 PM »

liberalism...as it is currently practiced and represented...is an absolute malignancy.
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2009, 03:10:05 PM »

liberalism...as it is currently practiced and represented...is an absolute malignancy.

The very same could be said for conservatism.  What's the point with this statement?
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2009, 03:14:44 PM »

actually I'm 100 percent right.  Those type of people are mainly responsible for the narrowing of the definition of liberal down to a specific set of evil perceptions which pretty much make liberal synonymous with "pinko commie"  That you say liberals are against freedom comes right out of Hannity's dictionary.  Sad...  Among liberal/progressive thinking people in America, you'll find a great many that don't come close to being synonymous with pinko commie.

I simply do not see how you can argue with any credbility that the modern day self labeled "liberal/progressive" is for any semblence of freedom other than gay marriage and abortion.

1.  2nd amendment - who argues for more restrictions on this civil right?  Liberals or conservatives?

2.  1st amendment - who advocates censorship and free speech restrictions??  Liberals or conservatives?

3.  Economic freedom - who advocates for higher mandatory taxes, fees, and regulations?  Liberals or conservatives?

To me, this is barely even debatable.  I dont see how you can argue that modern day liberals favor freedom by and large when almost every impulse of theirs is to control the decisions and choices of others.

This does not apply to abortion other than liberals' demand that I pay for their choices, but applies to almost everything else whether it be social security, health care, taxes, free speech, nanny state, etc.  

    
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