Obama Flip Flops

[Decker]

I'm already pissed at his handling of Wall Street and Health Care. . .now this.

Obama..."said months ago before he became president...that if he became president, he would have his attorney general investigate the Bush administration to see if things that they had done involved crimes or just merely bad policy.  He said if they involved crimes, he said no man is above the law, and the implication was that he would ask his attorney general to proceed forward, so he’s changed his position."

Now Obama is pushing this: that he has "a belief that we need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards"  --President Obama's statement re the investigation of the Bush administration

According to a recent interview with Vincent Bugliosi, he is offended by Obama's flip flop.  The murder that Bush wrought as a corrupt president should not be allowed to go unchallenged.

When he (Obama) says that he intends to give Bush a free pass simply because whatever crime Bush may have committed was in the past, I would inform him of something he already knows:  that all criminal prosecutions, without exception and by definition, have to deal, obviously, with past criminal behavior.  Obviously we cannot prosecute someone for a crime that they may commit in the future.

http://thejournal.epluribusmedia.net/index.php/interviews/45-epm-interviews/230-murder-trumps-torture-says-bugliosi

"If we prosecute those in America who only commit one murder, under what theory don't we prosecute a president who is criminally responsible for over four thousand murders?"  Vincent Bugliosi

[Soul Crusher]

I'm already pissed at his handling of Wall Street and Health Care. . .now this.

Obama..."said months ago before he became president...that if he became president, he would have his attorney general investigate the Bush administration to see if things that they had done involved crimes or just merely bad policy.  He said if they involved crimes, he said no man is above the law, and the implication was that he would ask his attorney general to proceed forward, so he’s changed his position."

Now Obama is pushing this: that he has "a belief that we need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards"  --President Obama's statement re the investigation of the Bush administration

According to a recent interview with Vincent Bugliosi, he is offended by Obama's flip flop.  The murder that Bush wrought as a corrupt president should not be allowed to go unchallenged.
http://thejournal.epluribusmedia.net/index.php/interviews/45-epm-interviews/230-murder-trumps-torture-says-bugliosi

"If we prosecute those in America who only commit one murder, under what theory don't we prosecute a president who is criminally responsible for over four thousand murders?"  Vincent Bugliosi

My god, hell has frozen over!

[tonymctones]

 

[Soul Crusher]

I'm already pissed at his handling of Wall Street and Health Care. . .now this.

Obama..."said months ago before he became president...that if he became president, he would have his attorney general investigate the Bush administration to see if things that they had done involved crimes or just merely bad policy.  He said if they involved crimes, he said no man is above the law, and the implication was that he would ask his attorney general to proceed forward, so he’s changed his position."

Now Obama is pushing this: that he has "a belief that we need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards"  --President Obama's statement re the investigation of the Bush administration

According to a recent interview with Vincent Bugliosi, he is offended by Obama's flip flop.  The murder that Bush wrought as a corrupt president should not be allowed to go unchallenged.
http://thejournal.epluribusmedia.net/index.php/interviews/45-epm-interviews/230-murder-trumps-torture-says-bugliosi

"If we prosecute those in America who only commit one murder, under what theory don't we prosecute a president who is criminally responsible for over four thousand murders?"  Vincent Bugliosi

Decker, the thing you need to realize, and I know his is hard for you, is that Bush and Obama are nearly the same on most issues. 

Whether it be being owned by wall street, pushing the NWO, amnnesty for illegal aliens, bailouts, etc, where is the CHANGE??

[James]

[Dos Equis]

Good. 

[Decker]

Decker, the thing you need to realize, and I know his is hard for you, is that Bush and Obama are nearly the same on most issues. 

Whether it be being owned by wall street, pushing the NWO, amnnesty for illegal aliens, bailouts, etc, where is the CHANGE??

Here's where the change is:

Obama doesn't kill Iraqis with a trumped up invasion

Obama doesn't torture people

Obama doesn't subvert Congress

Obama doesn't alienate the rest of the world


...there's more but I'm sure you can get the drift.

[headhuntersix]

Yeah...but

he wastes more money then anybody has ever done as president
violates states rights
appeases foreign countries including enemies of this nation
badmouths America on foreign soil
cuts defense while fighting 2 wars
pushed amnesty while he enjoys almost 9% unemployment
allows rougue nations to continue bad behaivor

and thats in less then 90 days.

[Soul Crusher]

Here's where the change is:

Obama doesn't kill Iraqis with a trumped up invasion

Obama doesn't torture people

Obama doesn't subvert Congress

Obama doesn't alienate the rest of the world


...there's more but I'm sure you can get the drift.

So you are more worried about iraqis getting water poured over their head than our country being sped along to debt slavery and amensty for 15 million illegals who will go on welfare???

[headhuntersix]

This is a mentality I don't understand.

[Soul Crusher]

This is a mentality I don't understand.

I still have not seen anything compelling as far as torture goes that show we did anything close to what Saddam did or what they do now over there.

This is another garbage liberal pet issue that most people laugh at.

[headhuntersix]

We made some of them feel bad...as in Abu Garib...and we water boarded a few guys who gave us actionable intel. Now the libs wackjobs will throw around random and un verifiable numbers..hundreds..thous ands etc..but nobody here knows. If u run the traps on all these numbers u never get to a real report...or the report speaks in generalities. Then sometimes the report is BS..or the source biased. I would never allow any of my soldiers to randomly beat or kill anybody for any reason. Not because I care about the dude, I don't want my guys getting in trouble. I would never aloow them to rape or hurt a child, despite what shitbags like SAMSON, say. I have delivered shoes and school supplies to orphanges...helped in a well negociation. SAMSON and his kind read bs on the net that appeals to them and then go from there. I have traced numerous rants of his about the war to anti-war website propaganda. He thinks he has a clue. 

[a_joker10]

This is from a democrat senator and newspaper that supported Obama

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-obama-czars5-2009mar05,0,1528130.story

President Obama's czar system concerns some
He has 'super aides' for healthcare, the economy, energy and urban issues, with more to come -- prompting some lawmakers and groups to worry that he may be concentrating power and bypassing Congress.

But some lawmakers and outside experts fear that Obama is setting up a system that is not subject to congressional oversight and creates the potential for conflict among his many advisors.

Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W.Va.) became concerned enough to send a cautionary letter to Obama last week. At times, he said, past White House staffers have assumed duties that should be the responsibility of officials cleared through the Senate confirmation process. He cited President Bush's naming of homeland security czar Tom Ridge as an example.

"They rarely testify before congressional committees and often shield the information and decision-making process behind the assertion of executive privilege," Byrd wrote of past czars and White House staffers in similar positions. At times, he said, one outcome has been to "inhibit openness and transparency, and reduce accountability."

"The rapid and easy accumulation of power by White House staff can threaten the constitutional system of checks and balances," Byrd said.

By the way Bush didn't isolate the rest of the world.
There were many governments that were on side with him for many issues.
There was the coalition of the willing in Iraq
there were governments in Africa and South America, that supported him on Aids funding and on trade.
There was the Israel.
Canada on Free trade.
Just to name a few.

Obama isn't ending torture
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12041
Conclusion
The loopholes in President Obama’s executive order on torture may permit cruel abuses of prisoners to continue, using a legal parlor trick.  Labeling detainees the product of counterterrorism operations rather than of armed conflict, or holding detainees in detention facilities operated by entities other than the CIA, may allow government agents and private contractors conforming to the letter of the president’s order to continue practices most would consider torture.  The president should close these loopholes or explain to Americans why he won’t.

James Hill is a partner in the law firm of McDermott Will & Emery, and a clinical assistant professor of radiology at the University of Southern California School of Medicine.  The views expressed are solely his own.

[George Whorewell]

Until Decker witnesses Obama use a car battery to torture one of his pre teen female relatives while wiretapping a Supreme Court justice and chanting "Kill Whitey" at a Reverend Wright rally, Obama can absolutely do no wrong under any circumstances. Until those things happen- all simultaneously, its Bush's fault for... anything.

[240 is Back]

Until Decker witnesses Obama use a car battery to torture one of his pre teen female relatives while wiretapping a Supreme Court justice and chanting "Kill Whitey" at a Reverend Wright rally, Obama can absolutely do no wrong under any circumstances. Until those things happen- all simultaneously, its Bush's fault for... anything.

the problem is, all the douchebag rovians who spent the last 8 years blaming Clinton for 9/11.

Bush was warned and didn't act.  it's that simple.  it doesn't matter if it was planned on reagan's watch - it was going to happen and for some reason, but didn't stop it.

can't blame clinton for that one.  but ppl here did, in every debate here, for the last 8 years.  So it's only natural to blame bush for things, for the next 7 years.

[tonymctones]

the problem is, all the douchebag rovians who spent the last 8 years blaming Clinton for 9/11.

Bush was warned and didn't act.  it's that simple.  it doesn't matter if it was planned on reagan's watch - it was going to happen and for some reason, but didn't stop it.

can't blame clinton for that one.  but ppl here did, in every debate here, for the last 8 years.  So it's only natural to blame bush for things, for the next 7 years.

again dumb ass dont you believe 9/11 was an inside job?

[Decker]

I still have not seen anything compelling as far as torture goes that show we did anything close to what Saddam did or what they do now over there.

This is another garbage liberal pet issue that most people laugh at.

Well over 100 detainees have died in US custody.  The CIA destroyed 100s of hours of interrogation video that was under subpoena.

Nothing to see here according to you.

Who gives a shit what Saddam did?  Do you measure your business ethics by what Ivan Boesky did, your marital ethics by OJ etc.?

[headhuntersix]

Please post the actual numbers and circumstances of these deaths....

[Decker]

This is from a democrat senator and newspaper that supported Obama

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-obama-czars5-2009mar05,0,1528130.story

President Obama's czar system concerns some
He has 'super aides' for healthcare, the economy, energy and urban issues, with more to come -- prompting some lawmakers and groups to worry that he may be concentrating power and bypassing Congress.

But some lawmakers and outside experts fear that Obama is setting up a system that is not subject to congressional oversight and creates the potential for conflict among his many advisors.

Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W.Va.) became concerned enough to send a cautionary letter to Obama last week. At times, he said, past White House staffers have assumed duties that should be the responsibility of officials cleared through the Senate confirmation process. He cited President Bush's naming of homeland security czar Tom Ridge as an example.

"They rarely testify before congressional committees and often shield the information and decision-making process behind the assertion of executive privilege," Byrd wrote of past czars and White House staffers in similar positions. At times, he said, one outcome has been to "inhibit openness and transparency, and reduce accountability."

"The rapid and easy accumulation of power by White House staff can threaten the constitutional system of checks and balances," Byrd said.

Obama's reintroducing the FOIA as operative again.  He's actually consulting with Congress and the American people.  This matter is nothing.  I wish Byrd would have done something when there truly was a constitutional crisis in this country - illegal war, torture, spying etc.

By the way Bush didn't isolate the rest of the world.
There were many governments that were on side with him for many issues.
There was the coalition of the willing in Iraq
there were governments in Africa and South America, that supported him on Aids funding and on trade.
There was the Israel.
Canada on Free trade.
Just to name a few.

The Coalition of the bought and paid for.  half of those countries didn't even send a soldier.  They just wanted a piece of Iraq after the US carved it up.  Bingo! Consensus.

You can't have a coalition when 98% of the troops and resources come from one country.

Aids funding was good.  Doing one decent thing is not enough though.

Israel is a de facto 51st state of the USA.  Nothing accomplished there.

Canada did not join the 'coalition of the willing'.

Outside of the aids campaign, Bush did nothing for the US's reputation and standing in the world.

Obama isn't ending torture
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12041
Conclusion
The loopholes in President Obama’s executive order on torture may permit cruel abuses of prisoners to continue, using a legal parlor trick.  Labeling detainees the product of counterterrorism operations rather than of armed conflict, or holding detainees in detention facilities operated by entities other than the CIA, may allow government agents and private contractors conforming to the letter of the president’s order to continue practices most would consider torture.  The president should close these loopholes or explain to Americans why he won’t.

James Hill is a partner in the law firm of McDermott Will & Emery, and a clinical assistant professor of radiology at the University of Southern California School of Medicine.  The views expressed are solely his own.

Yes he is ending torture.

That article you list is crap.  Where was this James HIll when the US was actively torturing people?  Now he perceives loopholes that don't exist in the executive order ending torture.

Hill's analysis is skewed and filled with errors.  His protest about the chicanery of labeling of detainees does not exist in this:  http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-13440.htm  The whole purpose of the order is undo the excesses of torture wrought by Bush and ok'd by the Military Commissions Act.  By federal law the US does not torture b/c it's illegal.  Where isn't it illegal?  Under the torture permitted by the MCA for detainees.  His second loophole is as stupid as his first.  Of course the CIA's torture houses and methods are the target of this order...they were the heart of the controversy.  This Hill guy is not the brightest bulb.  His 3rd loophole is just as dumb as the first two:  torture might still happen....no shit, but at least it would be illegal under federal law and international law.  The fourth loophole is a joke as well: Abuses not labeled “torture” may continue--Federal law and International law make torture illegal, period.  This order ropes in the CIA that Bush unleashed.

Another crapola hitpiece on Obama just b/c he brings a little decency and hope to the country.

[Decker]

Please post the actual numbers and circumstances of these deaths....

Why?

We used to have hundreds of hours of video of the 'interrogations' until the CIA destroyed them.

[headhuntersix]

U don't have hundreds of hours so if ur saying "we" killed hundreds I'd like to see ur proof. In other news Obama said he has killed and eaten hundreds of retarded children......U'd let that stand without proof? Come on Decker..."hundreds". It might be ok for the Congressional Black Cacus to overlook gross violations of Human rights but even we have'nt killed over 100 detainee's.

[Decker]

U don't have hundreds of hours so if ur saying "we" killed hundreds I'd like to see ur proof. In other news Obama said he has killed and eaten hundreds of retarded children......U'd let that stand without proof? Come on Decker..."hundreds". It might be ok for the Congressional Black Cacus to overlook gross violations of Human rights but even we have'nt killed over 100 detainee's.

Again, why?  You supported the Iraq invasion which killed thousands initially.  You had no problem with those deaths of people that did nothing to you and weren't terrorists.

And in this case, it's arguably worse b/c we have alleged terrorists, whom you hate, that are dying in US custody from torture that you support.  Again, what do you care how many die from torture?

What difference does the number of dead make to you?  I really want to know.

I have the numbers/citations you want, I just want to find out why you want to know.

[headhuntersix]

Well first off I didn't just support it...i was part of it. I want to see where we killed hundreds of people in our custody.

[Decker]

Well first off I didn't just support it...i was part of it. I want to see where we killed hundreds of people in our custody.

I said, 'over a hundred'.  No one knows the exact number b/c of gov. secrecy and destruction of evidence.

Report: 108 Died In U.S. Custody (2005)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/16/terror/main680658.shtml

Substantiated and Unsubstantiated Homicides of Detainees
"Substantiated" criminal homicide by Armed Forces Criminal Investigation

"Unsubstantiated" due to unrecognized homicidal cause of death (false natural deaths)"

Homicide by torture method (eg, asphyxia that was not recognized as cause of death;


Homicide by heart attack; and


Homicide by medical neglect.
 
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284_3

I found a lot more deaths by asphyxiation autopsies as well.

[headhuntersix]

It includes deaths attributed to natural causes....ok Decker...well ur right 108 out of 65k...not bad.